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Mackeyser

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And in that case there was evidence of a crime and it went to trial.

"South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, which acts as an investigative unit, stated that Groubert “did without justification unlawfully shoot Levar Jones.” Groubert was fired, arrested, and charged with assault and battery of a high and aggregated nature, a felony with a penalty upon conviction of as many as 20 years in prison."

I was responding to Boffo's quote about a narrative. Turns out that narrative happens. An awful damn lot. The fact that some police go to jail now...sometimes... is progress.

What would be better would be if this mess stopped happening at all. Or at the very least it was so rare that it really was shocking.

The problem is that it's become common enough that it's taking video(s) of this happening all over to wake folks up. It only took ONE video of Rodney King to wake up much of the rest of America that in inner-cities all over America, it was fairly common to see cops just beating the crap out of some African American for quite literally no damn reason...and then charge him with a litany of crimes as he was on the way to the hospital. In a well publicized case, one guy got charged with destruction of public property. Why? He got his blood on the officer's uniform.

The point is that it went to trial. There wasn't a DA saying, "he coulda had anything in that truck and we have to protect our officers" which I very much could hear some DAs saying... which leaves people wonder, "who's protecting US then?"

I hope you guys understand that I'm all about the process working. You guys seem to be all on Team Wilson as if there's only the two options.

There's more. I'm not on a team. If I had to say, I'd say I was on the Refereeing Oversight Committee. If the process is working for everyone, then I'm happy.
 

RamzFanz

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Actually, what I said was that neither family would get justice. And that was bad in principle. That's pretty important. The way you paint it, I'm taking sides.

I'm not.

Secondly, you point out about discrepancies. You know why you know about them? Because the DA's office heavily scrutinized those statements that contradicted Officer Wilson's.

You know what you didn't see? That same level of scrutiny applied to Officer Wilson. So, Officer Wilson couldn't possibly be caught lying (not saying he was lying, but no one put his story through the same rigorous vetting as the other witnesses).

I'm just pointing out that if you go looking for an outcome, it's pretty easy to find it. When the DA convenes the Grand Jury, goes hard on witnesses who contradict Officer Wilson and leaves Officer Wilson's several accounts uncontested... then WONDER OF WONDERS! all the evidence points to one conclusion!

The charge the the prosecutor didn't indict isn't sour grapes. It's indicative of him not doing his job. He failed his community before the Grand Jury by not pursuing an indictment.

The DA is the one who lost faith in the very system he represents by refusing the play HIS role in it. HE is the DA, but instead he manipulated the Grand Jury process to obtain a summary judgment from the Grand Jury, a finding that they cannot return and that their finding DOES NOT MEAN.

All the Grand Jury finding means is that Officer Wilson won't go to trial.

That's it. Doesn't mean he's innocent. Doesn't mean he's guilty. Just means he's not going to trial. And especially because of how DA McCulloch manipulated the process to ensure Officer Wilson wouldn't be indicted, it REALLY doesn't say anything about Officer Wilson's guilt or innocence.

I'll say it again. If you are basing Officer Wilson's "innocence" or his "exoneration" on this Grand Jury process, the Grand Jury findings or solely based on evidence presented to the Grand Jury, then... I don't know what to say. You may as well determine who the best martial artist in the world is by watching Wrestlmania because both outcomes were predetermined well in advance.

I find the accusation that giving the grand jury all the evidence was rigging it to be faulty. They saw the evidence and heard the witnesses. They saw when the witnesses weren't telling the truth based upon the evidence. It IS easy to indict someone with just probable cause and they couldn't even reach that standard.

It doesn't just mean he won't go to trial. It means there was no evidence of a crime.

Why are you saying the prosecution went hard on witnesses that didn't agree with Wilson?
 

RamFan503

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the prosecutor has to want the ham sandwich to be indicted. (emphasis mine)
Want an indictment? Or believe the indictment has a chance to successfully bring a prosecution? I think you are extrapolating your belief as if it is fact.
 

Mackeyser

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@RamzFanz the accusation that giving the jury all the evidence is the VERY DEFINITION of rigging it.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

It is NOT, absolutely NOT the job of the Grand Jury to adjudicate the merits of guilt or innocence or to exonerate a person.

I've posted probably half a dozen times the standard articulated by Justice Scalia. That is NOT what McCulloch did. Moreover, what McCulloch did isn't just kinda, sorta outside the norm. It's SO UNUSUAL that it borders on the "unheard of" and people struggled to find precedent for it...anywhere.

Further, your statement that "it means there was no evidence of a crime" is just not correct. We don't know that because the DA never ASKED the Grand Jury for an indictment. They put the Grand Jury in a very difficult position, a position that no trial jury is in because evidence there has the benefit of scrutiny by opposing counsel. They were asked to "figure it out" when the DA essentially created reasonable doubt by presenting all of the exculpatory evidence.

And let me be clear here. The ONLY evidence the DA SHOULD have presented was that evidence necessary to obtain an indictment. The DA before the Grand Jury functions in a prosecutorial role. Many veteran prosecutors have come forward (and they tend to lean pretty conservative) and said that they've never seen or heard of a DA or their office NOT presenting a case, only presenting the evidence AND presenting exculpatory evidence before the Grand Jury.

So, the only evidence the Grand Jury should have seen were those pieces of evidence that supported the charges AND THAT'S IT.

That's the function of the Grand Jury. They perform a preliminary function in the judicial process.

It's not exactly basic civics, but we can't conflate juries.

And what DA McCulloch did sets a potentially disastrous precedent for DAs around the country to pawn off cases where they don't want to indict onto the Grand Jury and then subvert the Grand Jury with these tactics.

It's just really, really bad from a process standpoint. The Grand Jury is really important for a lot of reasons and its misuse by prosecutors should be heavily scrutinized and sanctioned.
 

RamzFanz

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@RamzFanz the accusation that giving the jury all the evidence is the VERY DEFINITION of rigging it.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

It is NOT, absolutely NOT the job of the Grand Jury to adjudicate the merits of guilt or innocence or to exonerate a person.

I've posted probably half a dozen times the standard articulated by Justice Scalia. That is NOT what McCulloch did. Moreover, what McCulloch did isn't just kinda, sorta outside the norm. It's SO UNUSUAL that it borders on the "unheard of" and people struggled to find precedent for it...anywhere.

Further, your statement that "it means there was no evidence of a crime" is just not correct. We don't know that because the DA never ASKED the Grand Jury for an indictment. They put the Grand Jury in a very difficult position, a position that no trial jury is in because evidence there has the benefit of scrutiny by opposing counsel. They were asked to "figure it out" when the DA essentially created reasonable doubt by presenting all of the exculpatory evidence.

And let me be clear here. The ONLY evidence the DA SHOULD have presented was that evidence necessary to obtain an indictment. The DA before the Grand Jury functions in a prosecutorial role. Many veteran prosecutors have come forward (and they tend to lean pretty conservative) and said that they've never seen or heard of a DA or their office NOT presenting a case, only presenting the evidence AND presenting exculpatory evidence before the Grand Jury.

So, the only evidence the Grand Jury should have seen were those pieces of evidence that supported the charges AND THAT'S IT.

That's the function of the Grand Jury. They perform a preliminary function in the judicial process.

It's not exactly basic civics, but we can't conflate juries.

And what DA McCulloch did sets a potentially disastrous precedent for DAs around the country to pawn off cases where they don't want to indict onto the Grand Jury and then subvert the Grand Jury with these tactics.

It's just really, really bad from a process standpoint. The Grand Jury is really important for a lot of reasons and its misuse by prosecutors should be heavily scrutinized and sanctioned.

Actually, this wasn't a grand jury. It was a grand jury investigation according to the documents and transcript. So they would indeed see all of the evidence.
 

RamzFanz

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I'm reading a witness testimony right now (41) and when the witness realises she's caught in a lie she TAKES THE TAPE RECORDER AND TRIES TO ERASE IT! It's hilarious! Then she gives a second interview and lies again!
 

Mackeyser

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Want an indictment? Or believe the indictment has a chance to successfully bring a prosecution? I think you are extrapolating your belief as if it is fact.

Yes. Want. As in the prosecution goes to the Grand Jury not with altrustic motives about trial, but with the intention of getting an indictment.

Plenty of DAs have used the indictment as a negotiation tool for settlement purposes.

So, absolutely, yes. Want. The goal isn't necessarily a successful prosecution, but the presentation of enough evidence before the Grand Jury to necessitate an indictment.

And by the Federal Grand Jury numbers, they are SO skewed that you'd have to TRY to mess up to not get an indictment. Only 11 out of 160,000 in 2012 alone were returned No True bills. That success rate is staggering for DAs and AGs.

Of course the charges will indicate the DA's belief in what can be proven at trial. Maybe. Or it may be part of an overall legal strategy. That happens sometimes, too.

But what almost NEVER happens is the purposeful subversion of the Grand Jury process to obtain No True bills.

I mean, the Grand Jury could return indictments and the DA could still refuse to press charges for a host of reasons. That happens, also.

But, yeah. The purpose of the Grand Jury is to seek an indictment. That is the purpose.

Just like the purpose of the arraignment is to enter a plea. Think that scene in My Cousin Vinny. It's not to argue or present evidence... It's to enter a plea. That's it. That's its purpose.

Well, the Grand Jury has its purpose. And DA McCulloch misused the Grand Jury. Badly.
 

Mackeyser

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Actually, this wasn't a grand jury. It was a grand jury investigation according to the documents and transcript. So they would indeed see all of the evidence.

Again, no. It's certainly possible for them to play word jumble.

A grand jury investigation still wouldn't necessitate the presentation, pursuance or examination or exculpatory evidence.

Lemme put this plainly: The point of the Grand Jury, whether they be convened as a solely for indictment or as an investigative body, is to determine whether evidence exists TO SUPPORT AN INDICTMENT. The question of guilt or innocence is NOT germane to the function of the Grand Jury. They just need to determine if there is sufficient evidence to support the charges.

Further, whether the Grand Jury is indictment only or investigative in nature, the DA should have walked the Grand Jury through how evidence supported the charges. That never happened and that is the exact role of the DA in the Grand Jury process. Rather, they functioned as Officer Wilson's defense attorney.

That's just wrong.

Procedurally, this whole thing was wrong and no amount of rationalization make it right.

And...I'll say again I don't think he'd have been convicted at trial.

But he should have GONE to trial. Because, on principle, that's how the legal process is supposed to work and he shouldn't have been treated differently.

EDIT: Btw, why is everyone totally ignoring Justice Scalia's DEFINITION from 1992 on Grand Juries and their limitations that I posted? He can't be too liberal. And by his definition, McCulloch misused the Grand Jury. So what gives? Scalia said NO to all this "Grand Juries should see everything" bit. Neither here no in England has that EVER been the case. He was strong on it. I'm just curious, because of all the things I've posted on this, not one mention of Scalia has come up and that's probably the strongest thing indicting McCulloch's behavior.
 
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-X-

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But he should have GONE to trial. Because, on principle, that's how the legal process is supposed to work and he shouldn't have been treated differently.
What are the statistics relative to the amount of police shootings (and subsequent deaths) that go to trial?
 

RamzFanz

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Lemme put this plainly: The point of the Grand Jury, whether they be convened as a solely for indictment or as an investigative body, is to determine whether evidence exists TO SUPPORT AN INDICTMENT. The question of guilt or innocence is NOT germane to the function of the Grand Jury. They just need to determine if there is sufficient evidence to support the charges.

Yes, and they did not find sufficient evidence. Clearly. 60 witnesses, thousands of pages, 25 days of looking at evidence, and they didn't see anything that would support an indictment.
 

Mackeyser

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See, that right there..."they didn't see anything"

That's YOUR conclusion and there's no way to support that. That's not what the Grand Jury returned.

We don't know if they were very close or not even close. What was released was the evidence presented TO the Grand Jury, NOT the Grand Jury deliberations. So, no one KNOWS anything about if the Grand Jury was split, unanimous or even if they saw the evidence the same way. And you guys are all acting as if Officer Wilson was found not just not guilty, but INNOCENT in a court of law. Well, that's just not what actually happened and this version you guys are concocting is pure fantasy. It's just not real.

What we DO know is that DA McCulloch misused the Grand Jury process and included exculpatory evidence. The Grand Jury never should have SEEN anything that would exonerate Officer Wilson. IF the DA were going to allow Officer Wilson to testify, it should have been as a PROSECUTOR, not in the role of defender, which is how they functioned.

Why is that part so hard to understand?

The Grand Jury may have found sufficient evidence and in the absence of exculpatory evidence and clear direction regarding the charges quickly returned indictments. That would have required the DA to actually provide direction regarding the charges. Again, this lack of direction is almost unprecedented. Why is THAT okay? Why is different law for different people okay?

We simply cannot know because of how badly the DA misused the Grand Jury process.

See, I'm trying to speak to facts and you guys want to just have it the way you want it.

It's telling that I post Justice Antonin Scalia's very definition from the 1992 case United States v. Williams.

"It is the grand jury’s function not ‘to enquire … upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,’ or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine ‘upon what foundation [the charge] is made’ by the prosecutor. Respublica v. Shaffer, 1 Dall. 236 (O. T. Phila. 1788); see also F. Wharton, Criminal Pleading and Practice § 360, pp. 248-249 (8th ed. 1880). As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented."

Good Grief.

You guys are like Vinny at the Arraignment.... I wish I had that video so I could post it.

The only way to have a real discussion is for all of us to be in possession of the facts. I'm fine disagreeing.

Heck, we AGREE that Officer Wilson likely wouldn't be found guilty at trial, though I think we get there by different roads.

Problem is that I'm saying the process was flawed. You guys are saying the process wasn't flawed and he is innocent. Except, by definition...it was flawed. By definition. So it's pretty hard to have much of a conversation if Team Wilson thinks the Grand Jury process was sacrosanct.

Btw, I'm not saying Team Wilson disparingly. I'm aggregating. If that's bothersome to anyone, I'll be more selective. It's just my posts are already pretty long...lol.
 

RamzFanz

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Again, no. It's certainly possible for them to play word jumble.

A grand jury investigation still wouldn't necessitate the presentation, pursuance or examination or exculpatory evidence.

Lemme put this plainly: The point of the Grand Jury, whether they be convened as a solely for indictment or as an investigative body, is to determine whether evidence exists TO SUPPORT AN INDICTMENT. The question of guilt or innocence is NOT germane to the function of the Grand Jury. They just need to determine if there is sufficient evidence to support the charges.

Further, whether the Grand Jury is indictment only or investigative in nature, the DA should have walked the Grand Jury through how evidence supported the charges. That never happened and that is the exact role of the DA in the Grand Jury process. Rather, they functioned as Officer Wilson's defense attorney.

That's just wrong.

Procedurally, this whole thing was wrong and no amount of rationalization make it right.

And...I'll say again I don't think he'd have been convicted at trial.

But he should have GONE to trial. Because, on principle, that's how the legal process is supposed to work and he shouldn't have been treated differently.

EDIT: Btw, why is everyone totally ignoring Justice Scalia's DEFINITION from 1992 on Grand Juries and their limitations that I posted? He can't be too liberal. And by his definition, McCulloch misused the Grand Jury. So what gives? Scalia said NO to all this "Grand Juries should see everything" bit. Neither here no in England has that EVER been the case. He was strong on it. I'm just curious, because of all the things I've posted on this, not one mention of Scalia has come up and that's probably the strongest thing indicting McCulloch's behavior.

I've been reading up on the case Scalia was referring to and grand jury / prosecutor responsibilities. I'm guessing your drawing your arguments from far left web sites because they are skewing the facts pretty consistently across them with the same arguments.

This seems to be a good explanation of why, in a self defense case, the prosecutor will offer exculpatory evidence.

"
Self-Defense: Not Your Usual Legal Defense
Why? Because self-defense is a fundamentally different defense than alibi or misidentification or any other non-justification defense.

When a defendant argues an alibi defense, he is not contesting that a crime has been committed. Indeed, whether a crime has been committed or not is irrelevant to his defense, because his defense is that regardless of whether the underlying crime occurred, he was not there. Whoever committed the claimed criminal acts, they were committed by someone else.

But a crime was committed. Indeed, if the prosecution cannot establish that fact, for example if they cannot present probable cause on any element of the criminal charge, the Grand Jury isrequired to not indict.

Similarly with a misidentification defense. Again, the defendant is not contesting that a crime has been committed, but rather is arguing that whoever committed the crime, it was some person similar in appearance to him, but not him.

But again a crime was committed. Indeed, if the prosecution cannot establish that fact, for example if they cannot present probable cause on any element of the criminal charge, the Grand Jury is required to not indict.

A justification defense such as self-defense is a different animal of legal defense entirely.

Self-defense does not contest that the defendant committed the underlying acts. It does not claim that he was somewhere else, as in an alibi defense, or that some similar appearing person other than him committed the acts, as in a misidentification defense.

Self-defense effectively requires the defendant to concede to having committed the charged acts. One cannot simultaneously refuse to have committed the charged acts and simultaneously claim self-defense–to do so is an outright logical inconsistency.

Self-defense is an inherently deliberate act–you perceived a threat, and acted against it.

More importantly, an act of self-defense eliminates completely any criminality associated with the underlying actions that would otherwise be criminal.

Self-Defense Eliminates the Criminality of What Would Otherwise be a Criminal Act
In other words, self-defense acts to eliminate the criminality of the underlying acts, and thus effectively becomes a negative element of the criminal charge. It is for this reason that 49 of 50 states require that at trial it is the burden of the prosecution to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt–just as the prosecution must prove each and every element of the criminal charge beyond a reasonable doubt.

More simply, if an otherwise criminal act was committed in self-defense, no crime has been committed at all.

It is the duty of the Grand Jury to determine whether there exists probable cause that a crime has been committed, and that the defendant is the person who committed the underlying acts.

In a self-defense case, of course, the second question is not contested–the defendant concedes up front that he committed the underlying acts, else he would not be entitled to claim self-defense at all.

The first question, however–there’s the rub.

In order for the Grand Jury to determine whether there exists probable cause that has been committed in a self-defense case, they must do more than merely determine whether there exists probable cause as to each and every element of the criminal charge. This they must do, surely, because if they do not the Grand Jury will be instructed to not indict.

But in a case involving self-defense, probable cause on each and every element of the criminal charge is necessary but not sufficient for an indictment.

Why? Because probable cause could exist on each and every element of the criminal charge and yet probable cause of a crime necessary to support an indictment still be lacking.

Why? Because self-defense eliminates the criminality of the otherwise criminal underlying acts.

If Evidence of Self-Defense Is Adequate To Eliminate Probable Cause of a Crime, There Can Be No Indictment
A shooting done in self-defense, then, is simply not a crime at all, and if there is no crime there can be no indictment.

If either the evidence on the elements of the criminal charge is inadequate to support probable cause that a crime has occurred, or the evidence on self-defense is sufficient toeliminate probable case that a crime has occurred, the outcome from the Grand Jury’s perspective must necessarily be the same: no-true-bill.

Thus, just as it is perfectly appropriate for the Grand Jury to consider all relevant evidence on each and every element of the criminal charge, it is equally appropriate for the Grand Jury to consider all relevant evidence on the matter of self-defense.

To Deny That the Grand Jury Should Consider Self-Defense is to Embrace an Absurdity
Indeed, to deny that the Grand Jury should consider self-defense is to embrace a legal and logical absurdity.

As noted, in cases of self-defense,the defendant necessarily concedes the underlying criminal acts, but defends them on the grounds that he was legally justified to commit the acts as a matter of lawful self-defense.

Were the Grand Jury be permitted to consider only the concession of the use of force, but not the claimed justification, then each and every act of self-defense would necessarily result in an indictment and be brought to trial, no matter how strongly the evidence in its totality supported the justification of that use of force.

A Secret Service Agent cuts down an assassin moments before the killer can take the President’s life, all caught on cameras by news agencies worldwide as the President delivers a major policy speech? Sorry, Agent, here’s your indictment, we’ll see you at the trial. After all, he concedes he committed the killing, and merely claims legal justification for doing so–but the Grand Jury is not permitted to hear the justifcation.

A maniac gunning down children in a school is shot and killed by the school resource officer assigned to that duty, all events testified to by scores of surviving teachers and students? Sorry, officer, here’s your indictment, we’ll see you at trial. Again, the Grand Jury is permitted to hear the concession of the use of force, but not the justification.

A murderously abusive husband invades his wife’s place of work, killing her colleagues with shotgun blasts as he seeks her out, until a security officer takes him out with a well-placed gun shot to the head, all events caught on the company’s CCTV system? Sorry, sir, here’s your indictment, we’ll see you at trial. You get the idea.

I suggest that no reasonable or moral person could possibly argue for such legal outcomes."
 

Mackeyser

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What are the statistics relative to the amount of police shootings (and subsequent deaths) that go to trial?

Well, I don't have that and I really wasn't trying to address that, but I don't want you to think I didn't see your message.

My purpose in this thread is to discuss the role of the Grand Jury and correct, when appropriate, the misunderstandings that have been put forth. Unfortunately, many people misunderstand the role of the Grand Jury.

I mean, the DA could have simply refused to press charges. It is within his prosecutorial discretion. He could have done that.

However, seeing as he entered into a specific legal process, he should have respected it.

Subverting the Grand Jury process only emphasizes that the African American population in that area doesn't get the same justice. And I can guarantee you that when some young, black male is accused of a felony... the DA won't be convening a Grand Jury and submitting all the evidence like this.

The statistics relative to the amount of police shootings that go to trial? I'd presume it's pretty rare. DAs are pretty reluctant to charge police for a whole host of reasons, many of which are good ones including the increased latitude officers are allowed under the law to protect themselves and other citizenry and property. And the FBI does it's own internal investigations and in every, single fatality, the FBI found it to be a righteous kill. Which begs way more questions than I've got time for tonight... The officer in the South Carolina shooting went to trial, but that was caught on a dash cam and it was a pretty cut and dried.

So, I'd wager it's pretty rare for a lot of reasons, none of which exonerate any officer individually involved in a shooting.

It's like me saying all teachers MUST be good because not many get fired. Well, we know that in some places it's awful hard to fire teachers, so while in some areas that may be true, one can't make a linear correlation between quality of teachers and firing rate. Just the same, we can't make a linear correlation between police shootings and number of those which result in trials. There are factors which prevent linear correlation or establishing causation. That much I do know.
 

-X-

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Well, I don't have that and I really wasn't trying to address that, but I don't want you to think I didn't see your message.

My purpose in this thread is to discuss the role of the Grand Jury and correct, when appropriate, the misunderstandings that have been put forth. Unfortunately, many people misunderstand the role of the Grand Jury.

I mean, the DA could have simply refused to press charges. It is within his prosecutorial discretion. He could have done that.

However, seeing as he entered into a specific legal process, he should have respected it.

Subverting the Grand Jury process only emphasizes that the African American population in that area doesn't get the same justice. And I can guarantee you that when some young, black male is accused of a felony... the DA won't be convening a Grand Jury and submitting all the evidence like this.

The statistics relative to the amount of police shootings that go to trial? I'd presume it's pretty rare. DAs are pretty reluctant to charge police for a whole host of reasons, many of which are good ones including the increased latitude officers are allowed under the law to protect themselves and other citizenry and property. And the FBI does it's own internal investigations and in every, single fatality, the FBI found it to be a righteous kill. Which begs way more questions than I've got time for tonight... The officer in the South Carolina shooting went to trial, but that was caught on a dash cam and it was a pretty cut and dried.

So, I'd wager it's pretty rare for a lot of reasons, none of which exonerate any officer individually involved in a shooting.

It's like me saying all teachers MUST be good because not many get fired. Well, we know that in some places it's awful hard to fire teachers, so while in some areas that may be true, one can't make a linear correlation between quality of teachers and firing rate. Just the same, we can't make a linear correlation between police shootings and number of those which result in trials. There are factors which prevent linear correlation or establishing causation. That much I do know.
lol. I was just curious. I wasn't trying to make a point.
 

bluecoconuts

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What are the statistics relative to the amount of police shootings (and subsequent deaths) that go to trial?

I remember reading that historically, grand juries almost always choose to go to trial. Its very rare for them not to, however with police they tend to not go to trial.

I'll dig up the actual numbers in a few.
 

RamzFanz

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Well, I don't have that and I really wasn't trying to address that, but I don't want you to think I didn't see your message.

My purpose in this thread is to discuss the role of the Grand Jury and correct, when appropriate, the misunderstandings that have been put forth. Unfortunately, many people misunderstand the role of the Grand Jury.

I mean, the DA could have simply refused to press charges. It is within his prosecutorial discretion. He could have done that.

However, seeing as he entered into a specific legal process, he should have respected it.

Subverting the Grand Jury process only emphasizes that the African American population in that area doesn't get the same justice. And I can guarantee you that when some young, black male is accused of a felony... the DA won't be convening a Grand Jury and submitting all the evidence like this.

The statistics relative to the amount of police shootings that go to trial? I'd presume it's pretty rare. DAs are pretty reluctant to charge police for a whole host of reasons, many of which are good ones including the increased latitude officers are allowed under the law to protect themselves and other citizenry and property. And the FBI does it's own internal investigations and in every, single fatality, the FBI found it to be a righteous kill. Which begs way more questions than I've got time for tonight... The officer in the South Carolina shooting went to trial, but that was caught on a dash cam and it was a pretty cut and dried.

So, I'd wager it's pretty rare for a lot of reasons, none of which exonerate any officer individually involved in a shooting.

It's like me saying all teachers MUST be good because not many get fired. Well, we know that in some places it's awful hard to fire teachers, so while in some areas that may be true, one can't make a linear correlation between quality of teachers and firing rate. Just the same, we can't make a linear correlation between police shootings and number of those which result in trials. There are factors which prevent linear correlation or establishing causation. That much I do know.

Did you read the self-defense explanation provided by a 30 year self-defense attorney? What did you think?
 

RamFan503

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I mean, the DA could have simply refused to press charges. It is within his prosecutorial discretion. He could have done that.
And what kind of shit storm would that have created? There was NO WAY the DA was going to even try that. These protests pale in comparison to what would have happened if he simply said the evidence didn't support a case.

Next thing is to present the evidence as he sees it and yes - if the case prescribes - as he sees the evidence.

Let's say it goes to trial and the likes of Sharpton and Jessie get on their collective soap boxes, and Fox starts beating their drum with the constant media of a high profile race baited trial by media, and MSNBC starts trying to earn rating points with their spin on the proceedings. What sort of a shit storm does that create?

Do we want this over a case the DA feels (maybe knows) has NO WAY of going but one direction because he has seen all the evidence? Who wins here. How HUGE of a shit storm comes down when the jury comes back with a not guilty verdict?

Sorry - but I don't buy for a second that the evidence pointed to enough evidence for a successful prosecution and the DA acted accordingly.

If there was a case - the prosecutor would have acted accordingly.
 

Mackeyser

Supernovas are where gold forms; the only place.
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
14,435
Name
Mack
@RamzFanz

Firstly, please don't besmirch my research. I really don't appreciate that. I'm not a political animal and I read everywhere. I'm not a "lefty" or "righty". I think for myself.

Moreover, my MAIN source is the actual quote from Justice Scalia which outright contradicts what you're saying and Scalia said so in a Supreme Court precedent, 1992, United States v Williams.

Taken to the extreme, that article, which you did not source as I did mine from Alternet (I provided the link, if you mouse over Alternet) leaves open the massive loophole for almost EVERY gun crime outside of acts which required premediation, to be a self-defense crime in some way, shape or form. Btw, I have things I can post from the Washington Post (the conservative paper) if that helps even things out... then again, I'm not much for false equivocations. I just look for good research

That left/right (lack of) dynamic really irks me. What ever happened to critical thinking?

I take issue with your article. I can't address it properly because I don't see any link.

Take this:
More importantly, an act of self-defense eliminates completely any criminality associated with the underlying actions that would otherwise be criminal.

That's just not true. Even in states with the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, there are LIMITS to self-defense.

Say an intruder breaks into your home. You have a gun. Your state has both Castle Doctrine laws AND Stand Your Ground laws so in your home you are NOT required to first seek safety, flee or in any way seek a non-violent egress. You CAN shoot the intruder. What you can't do, is continue shooting him as he's running down the driveway. Technically, that was all "part of the intrusion and shooting", but after he cleared the threshold of the home and made clear his desire to flee, he was no longer a threat and thus, self-defense rules didn't apply.

Thus, self-defense doesn't completely eliminate any criminality.

Same guy. Breaks into your home. You have a gun. Same state. You shoot him and he goes down. He's clearly very badly injured and no longer a threat. You can NOT go up to him and empty the clip into him at point blank range.

Self-defense has its limits. And that's in states with both the Castle Doctrine AND Stand Your Ground laws.

Same goes for police officers. Even in the course of his duties, while he can use deadly force, those authorizations are limited, EVEN as they coincide with self-defense. Those limits may be lesser than for the average citizen, but they are most certainly THERE. Otherwise, every officer involved shooting could revert to "yeah, I shot him, but...self-defense" and if it were absolute as that article implied, you'd never see police held accountable. Ever. But we know that's not the case as the Officer in South Carolina went to trial and others have been convicted.

I'm happy to respectfully disagree, but please don't label me. I think for myself and I come to my own conclusions.
 

Mackeyser

Supernovas are where gold forms; the only place.
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
14,435
Name
Mack
And what kind of crap storm would that have created? There was NO WAY the DA was going to even try that. These protests pale in comparison to what would have happened if he simply said the evidence didn't support a case.

Next thing is to present the evidence as he sees it and yes - if the case prescribes - as he sees the evidence.

Let's say it goes to trial and the likes of Sharpton and Jessie get on their collective soap boxes, and Fox starts beating their drum with the constant media of a high profile race baited trial by media, and MSNBC starts trying to earn rating points with their spin on the proceedings. What sort of a crap storm does that create?

Do we want this over a case the DA feels (maybe knows) has NO WAY of going but one direction because he has seen all the evidence? Who wins here. How HUGE of a crap storm comes down when the jury comes back with a not guilty verdict?

Sorry - but I don't buy for a second that the evidence pointed to enough evidence for a successful prosecution and the DA acted accordingly.

If there was a case - the prosecutor would have acted accordingly.

I guess here's the thing.

In order for our system to work, we have to have faith in it. Whenever we've had our worst scandals...really actual crises... it's been because someone lost faith in the system and tried to or was successful in circumventing the process and it backfired later.

What do we have now? We have a bunch of evidence that shows that the DA didn't want to prosecute this case and prosecutor after prosecutor (we do live in a 24 hour news cycle, after all) has been asked about this and more and more reviews are in from prosecutors who generally don't like to throw a fellow prosecutor under the bus.

I mean, it's no surprise that the Defense attorneys are having a field day with this...both ways... But smart prosecutors see the peril in messing with the Grand Jury process. And McCulloch set an AWFUL precedent.

On the national stage, he turned the Grand Jury into a scapegoat. He knows full damn well that you don't give the Grand Jury zero guidance, especially in high profile cases or in difficult cases like this one where accounts are contradictory, so combining that with even non-exculpatory evidence may have been confusing. And when the next incident happens, what's the chance THAT DA will be forthright with the community? Or... will he wilt to concerns like you name and just dump the evidence on a Grand Jury, let them return No True bills and further build the racial divide in this country?

My point is that the process matters. It's really, really IMPORTANT. Everyone should be equal under the law. Political considerations shouldn't matter. Otherwise, if they do, then we shouldn't EVER prosecute Popular Celebrities or Rich people or Politicians because... consequences.

I'd rather we all play on the same, equal, level, playing field. It's not...equal...or level... but that should ALWAYS be the goal, imho.

Lastly, I've never said the evidence pointed to a successful prosecution. I said the evidence pointed to an indictment. It still does, btw. I said that for a number of reasons, it's unlikely he'd be convicted of anything.

Now, because of how Ferguson dropped the ball, it's very likely the DoJ will step in. Will they prosecute? I dunno. But... if THEY go before a Grand Jury, I can guarantee they'll get an indictment.
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
9,029
@RamzFanz

Firstly, please don't besmirch my research. I really don't appreciate that. I'm not a political animal and I read everywhere. I'm not a "lefty" or "righty". I think for myself.

Moreover, my MAIN source is the actual quote from Justice Scalia which outright contradicts what you're saying and Scalia said so in a Supreme Court precedent, 1992, United States v Williams.

Taken to the extreme, that article, which you did not source as I did mine from Alternet (I provided the link, if you mouse over Alternet) leaves open the massive loophole for almost EVERY gun crime outside of acts which required premediation, to be a self-defense crime in some way, shape or form. Btw, I have things I can post from the Washington Post (the conservative paper) if that helps even things out... then again, I'm not much for false equivocations. I just look for good research

That left/right (lack of) dynamic really irks me. What ever happened to critical thinking?

I take issue with your article. I can't address it properly because I don't see any link.

Take this:
More importantly, an act of self-defense eliminates completely any criminality associated with the underlying actions that would otherwise be criminal.

That's just not true. Even in states with the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, there are LIMITS to self-defense.

Say an intruder breaks into your home. You have a gun. Your state has both Castle Doctrine laws AND Stand Your Ground laws so in your home you are NOT required to first seek safety, flee or in any way seek a non-violent egress. You CAN shoot the intruder. What you can't do, is continue shooting him as he's running down the driveway. Technically, that was all "part of the intrusion and shooting", but after he cleared the threshold of the home and made clear his desire to flee, he was no longer a threat and thus, self-defense rules didn't apply.

Thus, self-defense doesn't completely eliminate any criminality.

Same guy. Breaks into your home. You have a gun. Same state. You shoot him and he goes down. He's clearly very badly injured and no longer a threat. You can NOT go up to him and empty the clip into him at point blank range.

Self-defense has its limits. And that's in states with both the Castle Doctrine AND Stand Your Ground laws.

Same goes for police officers. Even in the course of his duties, while he can use deadly force, those authorizations are limited, EVEN as they coincide with self-defense. Those limits may be lesser than for the average citizen, but they are most certainly THERE. Otherwise, every officer involved shooting could revert to "yeah, I shot him, but...self-defense" and if it were absolute as that article implied, you'd never see police held accountable. Ever. But we know that's not the case as the Officer in South Carolina went to trial and others have been convicted.

I'm happy to respectfully disagree, but please don't label me. I think for myself and I come to my own conclusions.

I didn't mean anything by the left wing sites, that's just where I see the same references and arguments you are using. I just intended to point out that those sites are not reliable.

The point that this Lawyer is making is that for a grand jury to consider an indictment in a case where self-defense is the claim, exculpatory evidence would be required. Otherwise, there's nothing for the grand jury to do. Shooting an unarmed person is a crime and Wilson admitted he did it.

I don't see any answer to his point. It is an exception to the general workings, he knows about it as a self-defense lawyer, and the logic is undeniable.

The fact that self-defense is a complete defense and would remove the criminality of the act, removing any reason for an indictment, exculpatory evidence would have to be presented. Of course the details would matter in deciding if it were self-defense, and the nuances of the law would need to be explained, which is why they would have to be presented.

http://legalinsurrection.com/author/law-of-self-defense/