Dodgers 21 year old SS prospect dominating AAA

[OldSchool]

Pitchers that can consistently hit at the MLB level can be counted on a hand. And nothing stops sacrifice plays from being done by a regular hitter.



Again, I'd rather see hitters hit and pitchers pitch. I didn't say that the AL is superior; I said that the DH is implemented in every league - from high school and college to the American League - except for the National League, and that I believe that the NL should join.

Just my honest opinion.

Which is fair, I however love the game the way the NL is played and don’t see a need to change it just for the sake of changing it. Especially if it won’t make it a better game. It likely will change though and for no viable reason. The union will probably push for it to get them more money. The concession to get that will likely be bad and that will lead me away from a game I’ve loved for a very very long time.

 

[coconut]

That depends upon the situation. If a sacrifice play is in order I'd rather see a batter up to the task which in the NL is more often a pitcher. Nothing prevents a pitcher from hitting a baseball other than lack of pride or laziness. Pitchers that can hit are the accomplished ballplayer.

Pitchers that can consistently hit at the MLB level can be counted on a hand. And nothing stops sacrifice plays from being done by a regular hitter.

Pitchers used to be able to hit before the DH. Most regular hitters suck at bunts or even hitting to the opposite field. It's sad that you're being a Cardinals fan and not appreciating what you get to watch in the NL. NL is the complete game on the field and between the ears.

 

[Akrasian]

Pitchers used to be able to hit before the DH. Most regular hitters suck at bunts or even hitting to the opposite field. It's sad that you're being a Cardinals fan and not appreciating what you get to watch in the NL. NL is the complete game on the field and between the ears.

While I don't like the DH - it's evolved into mostly giving position players a less stressful day than playing a position - pitchers hitting less and less is something that has steadily been occurring for most of baseball history, as specialization and the average level of play has increased over the decades. It's harder to find somebody who can throw hard, accurately, and master various pitches AND who can hit. It's hard for players to focus on batting AND pitching too. There are exceptions, but they are becoming rarer. It's a good thing, though, because the reason it is occurring is the average skill level is improving over the history of organized baseball. If you transplanted Babe Ruth to 2019 baseball unless he had a lifetime of modern training and competition to improve his skills he would be nothing special, and certainly wouldn't be a star at both pitching and hitting. Likely he wouldn't be as good at either - and that's before he became fat and slow later in his career.

Just the nature of progress - a far larger pool of players are available now - many times larger. Much better training and medicine, too. Players who don't work out all winter aren't long for the league, no taking a winter job working in the factory or on the farm.

 

[Memento]

Pitchers used to be able to hit before the DH. Most regular hitters suck at bunts or even hitting to the opposite field. It's sad that you're being a Cardinals fan and not appreciating what you get to watch in the NL. NL is the complete game on the field and between the ears.

Me being a Cardinals fan appreciates having a future lineup of Carlson, Bader, and Jhon Torres/Randy Arozarena in the outfield, Gorman, DeJong, Edman, and Goldschmidt on the infield, Ivan Herrera/Knizner behind the plate, and Elehuris Montero as a DH more.

...Hey, I can dream, right?

 

[coconut]

While I don't like the DH - it's evolved into mostly giving position players a less stressful day than playing a position - pitchers hitting less and less is something that has steadily been occurring for most of baseball history, as specialization and the average level of play has increased over the decades. It's harder to find somebody who can throw hard, accurately, and master various pitches AND who can hit. It's hard for players to focus on batting AND pitching too. There are exceptions, but they are becoming rarer. It's a good thing, though, because the reason it is occurring is the average skill level is improving over the history of organized baseball. If you transplanted Babe Ruth to 2019 baseball unless he had a lifetime of modern training and competition to improve his skills he would be nothing special, and certainly wouldn't be a star at both pitching and hitting. Likely he wouldn't be as good at either - and that's before he became fat and slow later in his career.

Just the nature of progress - a far larger pool of players are available now - many times larger. Much better training and medicine, too. Players who don't work out all winter aren't long for the league, no taking a winter job working in the factory or on the farm.

The skill of hitting a baseball hasn't changed throughout history. Pitching has changed a lot. Ruth would be just as great a hitter now. Same for Dimaggio, Cobb, Williams, Musial and a long list of others. In fact the case can be made that those hitters with todays bat and ball would be even better and during the artificial turf era better still.

 

[coconut]

Me being a Cardinals fan appreciates having a future lineup of Carlson, Bader, and Jhon Torres/Randy Arozarena in the outfield, Gorman, DeJong, Edman, and Goldschmidt on the infield, Ivan Herrera/Knizner behind the plate, and Elehuris Montero as a DH more.

...Hey, I can dream, right?

I won't begrudge you your dream. As long as it remains a dream!

 

[dieterbrock]

It likely will change though and for no viable reason.

Extremely viable reason. Only league where its still active is NL. The game has changed, have to change with the times

 

[OldSchool]

Extremely viable reason. Only league where its still active is NL. The game has changed, have to change with the times

No you don't. Change for the sake of change doesn't make it good. If there's a reason to do it, and sorry using the reason "all the other kids are doing it" should have been removed from your thought process before you were even a teenager, then yes. So far I haven't seen a single reason to do it.

 

[dieterbrock]

No you don't. Change for the sake of change doesn't make it good. If there's a reason to do it, and sorry using the reason "all the other kids are doing it" should have been removed from your thought process before you were even a teenager, then yes. So far I haven't seen a single reason to do it.

Of course you don't. You're invested in your preference, so you don't want to.
Its just silly to have some of these guys batting when they haven't had to hit since little league.
Just perusing box scores, and yesterday DH combined for 17/52 (.327) with 5HR and 12RBI
Pitchers were 4/32 with 0 RBI (San Diego pitchers had 2 of the hits, Cincy's Castillo had the other 2 H)
There's no reason to NOT have DH as far as I can tell

 

[coconut]

Of course you don't. You're invested in your preference, so you don't want to.
Its just silly to have some of these guys batting when they haven't had to hit since little league.
Just perusing box scores, and yesterday DH combined for 17/52 (.327) with 5HR and 12RBI
Pitchers were 4/32 with 0 RBI (San Diego pitchers had 2 of the hits, Cincy's Castillo had the other 2 H)
There's no reason to NOT have DH as far as I can tell

And yet the NL kicked the crap out of the AL this season in interleague play.

 

[Akrasian]

The skill of hitting a baseball hasn't changed throughout history. Pitching has changed a lot. Ruth would be just as great a hitter now. Same for Dimaggio, Cobb, Williams, Musial and a long list of others. In fact the case can be made that those hitters with todays bat and ball would be even better and during the artificial turf era better still.

Exceptionally doubtful. Velocity has greatly increased, especially in the last 20 years. It's routine now for middle relievers (a role that just didn't exist in the 1920s) to throw in the mid '90s, generally with a decent second pitch. In addition to the base ability to throw harder seen now, pitchers go all out on every pitch since they are asked to throw much shorter stints. Also, back in the day pitchers were expected to throw through injury, losing much effectiveness rapidly. We look at the few pitchers who managed to stay healthy - but most pitchers had short careers - an injury, and they would lose too much effectiveness to keep pitching in the majors.

Oh, and while the slider was developed in the 1920s, it didn't become common until much later. That was and is a game changer.

 

[coconut]

Exceptionally doubtful. Velocity has greatly increased, especially in the last 20 years. It's routine now for middle relievers (a role that just didn't exist in the 1920s) to throw in the mid '90s, generally with a decent second pitch. In addition to the base ability to throw harder seen now, pitchers go all out on every pitch since they are asked to throw much shorter stints. Also, back in the day pitchers were expected to throw through injury, losing much effectiveness rapidly. We look at the few pitchers who managed to stay healthy - but most pitchers had short careers - an injury, and they would lose too much effectiveness to keep pitching in the majors.

Oh, and while the slider was developed in the 1920s, it didn't become common until much later. That was and is a game changer.

It's still eye/hand coordination and swinging a bat. Put an old school bat in todays batter's hands to swing at a dead ball spitter and see how well they do. Oh and lets not forget that pitchers used to bean ball to own the inside of the plate. Batters back then also didn't wear armor as they do today. You can discount the overall physicality of players before the modern era of PEDs but to discount how their skill would translate to todays game is naive.

 

[Akrasian]

It's still eye/hand coordination and swinging a bat. Put an old school bat in todays batter's hands to swing at a dead ball spitter and see how well they do. Oh and lets not forget that pitchers used to bean ball to own the inside of the plate. Batters back then also didn't wear armor as they do today. You can discount the overall physicality of players before the modern era of PEDs but to discount how their skill would translate to todays game is naive.

Almost as naive to ignore the enormous increase in the pool of talent, because medical treatments (TJ surgery, for instance) helps players stay in the game and effective, especially pitchers; because unlike before Jackie Robinson African Americans are allowed in the majors; because international players are allowed routinely, even dark skinned and asian ones (a record 251 at the beginning of this season or basically 10 teams worth). Between a frayed tendon not meaning your career is over, even before it started in many cases, and the much larger US population to draw from including the ones who aren't pale skinned, and the approximately a third of the major leagues coming from outside of the US, and the radical changes in pitching - it is MUCH harder to hit. The reason that nobody has hit .400 since Ted Williams prior to integration isn't that Gods walks amongst us in those days - it's that the talent level has gotten so much deeper thanks to a much larger pool to draw from, better medical treatments, much better training etc that it is harder to stand out in that way. I mean, what do you think Mike Trout would be able to do if he were transported to the 1920s?

 

[coconut]

Almost as naive to ignore the enormous increase in the pool of talent, because medical treatments (TJ surgery, for instance) helps players stay in the game and effective, especially pitchers; because unlike before Jackie Robinson African Americans are allowed in the majors; because international players are allowed routinely, even dark skinned and asian ones (a record 251 at the beginning of this season or basically 10 teams worth). Between a frayed tendon not meaning your career is over, even before it started in many cases, and the much larger US population to draw from including the ones who aren't pale skinned, and the approximately a third of the major leagues coming from outside of the US, and the radical changes in pitching - it is MUCH harder to hit. The reason that nobody has hit .400 since Ted Williams prior to integration isn't that Gods walks amongst us in those days - it's that the talent level has gotten so much deeper thanks to a much larger pool to draw from, better medical treatments, much better training etc that it is harder to stand out in that way. I mean, what do you think Mike Trout would be able to do if he were transported to the 1920s?

I think Mike Trout wouldn't fare any better against Johnson or Feller or Grove at the plate. That is assuming he could still crowd the plate in an era with the bean ball or hit in an era with the spitter or a taller pitching mound and stay playing in an era without the medical treatments and physical therapies of today. He would also be expected to make contact with the ball rather than swinging from his heels and striking out as is the custom today.

 

[dieterbrock]

And yet the NL kicked the crap out of the AL this season in interleague play.

In NL parks or AL parks?
And AL has won 4 of last 6 WS, neither means anything

 

[coconut]

In NL parks or AL parks?
And AL has won 4 of last 6 WS, neither means anything

i couldn't find a breakdown of the record in parks played. I wish I could. Perhaps someone knows where to find that and post it? I don't think it matters since proponents of the DH claim the AL offense is superior due to the DH.

 

[dieterbrock]

i couldn't find a breakdown of the record in parks played. I wish I could. Perhaps someone knows where to find that and post it? I don't think it matters since proponents of the DH claim the AL offense is superior due to the DH.

The offense is of course superior being there is no #9 hitter in the AL which is an automatic out like there is in NL

Either way, not sure what wins/losses has to do with it being they are playing by the same rules in those games. Now if the NL teams beat the AL while letting their pitchers hit and the AL using DH, that would be something.

 

[coconut]

The offense is of course superior being there is no #9 hitter in the AL which is an automatic out like there is in NL

Then the AL should prevail. Yet they haven't. Offense is scoring runs and hits are only one component of offense. Advancing runners and scoring runs via sacrifice, taking the extra base, stealing bases all add greatly to an offense but are not reflected in batting avg.

 

[RamFan503]

Well this thread certainly went off the rails. How did a thread about an up and coming Dodger prospect become a thread about the DH?

Funny thing is, this would probably make for an interesting thread. I would even bet that more people would participate if they thought it was about the DH rule rather than a minor league Dodger player. And this is coming from a life long Dodger fan.

Personally, I always thought the DH rule was lame. And I would have been pissed if I wasn't allowed to bat when I pitched in my baseball days.

 

[OldSchool]

The offense is of course superior being there is no #9 hitter in the AL which is an automatic out like there is in NL

Either way, not sure what wins/losses has to do with it being they are playing by the same rules in those games. Now if the NL teams beat the AL while letting their pitchers hit and the AL using DH, that would be something.

Statistically the offense isn’t superior. But enough of derailing this thread about an amazing young Dodger player.