Covid 19 thread

[XXXIVwin]

Mac, I really hope you reconsider your position. I don't want to take your words out of context, but I felt alarmed by the things you said that I highlighted in bold above.

While there's no doubt that you are sincere, I think you underestimate the ability of political organizations to manipulate data, twist information, create propaganda, and misuse "science" to achieve power and control over national and even world populations. The rise of the National Socialist (aka NAZI) party in the 30's is sadly not our only example but it's our best example of how this happens, and how easily vast populations of well-educated people can be led to hand more & more power ("freedums') to their central governments until it's too late for "them" (common people) to do anything about it short of civil unrest & revolution. Centralizing power seems like a "smart" idea, and in many ways, communist (one-party) countries are able to "mandate" (interesting word, rooted in the ancient Chinese Mandarin government) quick actions and rapidly effect and enforce policies to control outbreaks, but the price of that level of national control is things like Tiananmen Square.

I think that the rise of the NaZi party tempted many world governments to follow their template to achieve more "efficient" control over their constituents. Their ability to manipulate the well-educated people of Germany into happily ushering them in & handing over all their freedoms was legendary. Mao used the same tactics, as well as Lenin, manipulating their young & educated, beginning with insidious education systems, to gain more & more control over universities, the press, national media, "grass roots" organizations of every kind, until one day, their entire country becomes an echo chamber populated by sycophants. And they sound "smart", they are incredibly powerful orators and exude intelligence, and everything they say seems to be "new", but it's really old (c.f. Machiavelli).

For the NaZi's, it was the Jews -- alarming and misleading their "smart" people into making foolish decisions, such as nationalizing industries, abdicating gun rights, and tracking certain demographics (Jews). For the Maoists, it was anyone over 30. For the Leninists, it was the Bourgeois & the wicked "witch" of the West (riffing on Russian childhood fears of Baba Yaga, just realized that, wow that was pretty smart). And, for us today, the popular "otherization" is anyone "clinging to their Bibles and their guns", which has now expanded to include "anti-vaxxers" during our current situation. Anyone questioning the agenda put forth by "science" (which tells us that African races are "inferior" according to such wonderful eugenicists as Darwin, Hitler and Margaret Sanger) and echoed endlessly by the national media must believe in "idiocracy", as if we'd want our national leaders to be idiots.

So, my question for you Mac, is: if it weren't for your kids / grandkids, exactly how far would you go? Which of your "freedums" guaranteed by your Constitution are you willing to "suspend" for the sake of a national pandemic response? And make no mistake -- power NEVER cedes itself. Their mandatory tracking apps and mandatory curfews and mandatory economic controls over private industries will NOT just go away, they WILL become permanent. Because, handing control over your private life & work is "smart", isn't it? Won't we live safer lives? But what's the cost to YOU?? and what WILL be the cost to those kids / grandkids of yours?

Thanos didn't go far enough? he just wanted to reduce the galactic population to "sustainable" levels, echoing Malthus. Why not do it in a "smart" way? we don't have to have a "Modest Proposal" type solution, we'll just euthanize those who are a drag on the State, such as the elderly, the crippled, the mentally incompetent, and the racially "inferior". Sound like a crazy consipracy theory? surely this couldn't happen in our modern, scientifically advanced world, right? it happened in the 30's, to a well-educated German population, and it can very, very easily happen today. All it takes are teaching our kids math problems like "how much would it save the State yearly if 30,000 deaf/dumb/blind citizens were euthanized if they cost 9,000 / year?" (a real math problem in the Nazi controlled state education system)

Your post is proof that it's already working. Many Americans are screaming for the federal government to have a "national response", in the name of "science". Case in point: the recent media articles about the new "whistleblower" scientist, Dr. Bright, who claimed he was canned because he wanted our government to have "science" based response. Digging just a bit into the article, he said such "science" based recommendations he made that he was ostensibly fired for included responding to the pandemic on a "national" level. NO science was put forth in the article; in fact, his recommendations weren't scientific, they were POLITICAL. Honestly, if the response works, what difference does it make if it's coordinated by FEMA or SEMA's??

Apparently, that difference is EVERYTHING. We've already seen it during Katrina, when political grandstanding by Louisiana state officials killed people -- buses sat there in parking lots around Baton Rouge because they first demanded assurances that FEMA would pay the costs. Buses that could have been mobilized, and were there for that very purpose, instead, sat there. But that's Louisiana, right? surely this wouldn't happen today, right? then why did Gov.'s Brown & Newsome systematically dismantle pandemic response programs & liquidate equipment (including entire field hospitals ready to go & ready to be mobilized) that Gov. Schwarzenegger built up? maybe, because it implies that the state of CA would be responsible for it's pandemic response, instead of the federal government? have you considered that possibly Trump thought he could reorganize federal pandemic programs because he thought it would be redundant, assuming states like CA and NY still had the pandemic equipment & programs they built under W??

It's obvious that there is some organization to the national media and democratic party that is pushing for more & more federal control until we resemble China. Disaster responses MUST be national. Pandemic responses MUST be national. Vaccination programs MUST be national, and MUST be carried out by multi-billion pharma corporations, many of whom have DEEP political ties. They can't simply allow common people to govern themselves, or determine our own heath care, because we're too stupid. Experts MUST control our lives, our decisions, and our work. It's "smarter", it's more efficient.... but in the end, what's the result? what's the goal? what's the dream? certainly not an American dream. It's a Soviet dream. It's a Eugenicist's dream. It's a National Socialist's dream.

Keep going in the direction you're headed, Mac... keep panicking, keep screaming for your rights to be sold for a proverbial bowl of soup, and you WILL get West Germany. Soviet Russia. Starvation. Killing Fields. Cuba. Venezuela. A Gray, Red world. We've seen the results over & over, and still we're no "smarter", we keep making the same, foolish decisions people have been making for millennia.

And now, for the tin-foil-hat portion of the debate...

Your evidence that we are on the slippery slope toward policies of euthanasia? Many Americans are screaming for the federal government to have a "national response", in the name of "science". Oh horrors!

And what's up with your continued use of quotation marks around the word "science?" Science is science, it's not "science." Oh and by the way, you lump together Hitler and Darwin as both being "eugenicists"? Gimme a break. Darwin died before the term "eugenics" was even invented.

There are way too many wild inaccuracies and ridiculous leaps of logic in your posts to possibly confront, so I'll settle on one. You wrote, "Dr. Bright claimed he was fired for scientific reasons. This was splashed across all major media outlets. However, his recommendations had nothing to do with science. He gave political recommendations. Therefore, he LIED."

Here is a verbatim transcript of what Dr. Bright said: "I believe this transfer was in response to my insistence that the government invest the billions of dollars allocated by Congress to address the Covid-19 pandemic into safe and scientifically vetted solutions, and not in drugs, vaccines and other technologies that lack scientific merit." Dr. Bright was advocating for one main point: only if a drug has undergone rigorous testing, (involving thousands of people in double-blind studies with and without placebo), THEN it should be made available for widespread use, but not before. There it is again-- science! Oh horrors!

You also wrote, Anyone questioning the agenda put forth by "science" ... and echoed endlessly by the national media must believe in "idiocracy", as if we'd want our national leaders to be idiots. Well, guess what, it's too late. The profound mistrust of science by our national leadership has already led to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths AND prolonged economic misery. Which country is doing a better job containing the coronavirus-- South Korea or the USA?

But hey don't worry, if you mistrust "science," there are other possibilities. Since Lysol kills the virus, maybe we should consider what happens if it was ingested? Or maybe people can be "injected" with sunlight?

Idiocracy indeed.

 

[Mackeyser]

Thanks @Mackeyser, I appreciate your points. However, your use of the Thanos metaphor was alarming, no? which is why I brought up Malthus, as well as Swift ("A Modest Proposal"). I am in neither camp as well, I consider myself a stranger in a strange land.

Yes propaganda must be fought, but in order to see it as such, we must view all sources of information critically -- this is not the same as developing conspiracy theories. Certain "flags" indicate that information may have been manipulated to achieve a propagandist's goals -- it may contain 90% truth, but if it contains 10% falsehood, extrapolation, manipulated data, misleading polls, etc., then you can be sure there's something else behind it. For example: Dr. Bright claimed he was fired for scientific reasons. This was splashed across all major media outlets. However, his recommendations had nothing to do with science. He gave political recommendations. Therefore, he LIED. And, when there's a lie, repeated over & over by national media outlets, you can be sure there's something behind it.

Another example: one media outlet recently showed video of over-crowded hospital corridors filled with Covid patients during a segment on how Covid has overwhelmed health systems in NYC. However, the video was taken in ITALY. Therefore, they LIED. In fact, there's field hospitals right now in Central Park just waiting for Covid patients overflowing from area hospitals. Why did they lie?
Maybe the same reason that one media outlet showed a reporter reporting from a canoe during Katrina, to indicate how bad NO was flooded, criticizing the Bush administration's lack of national response, while a passerby walked behind him in inches-deep water. You need to ask yourself: are these just innocent exaggerations? Why did they lie? What was the point of the segment? to stir up political opposition? sure seems that way. Therefore, such national media segments are propaganda.

Sure, recently we "allowed" a private business to sell PPE's to China when they could've been sold to our state governments. Personally I think that sucks. But, it's a fact that some of our state governments (CA & NY that I know of) recently liquidated tons & tons of PPE's, field hospitals, ventilators, etc. that were built up during the Bush administration, when W crossed the globe trying to get the world ready for a pandemic response. Why is there a media focus on a private business being "allowed" to sell their PPE goods to China, without corresponding reporting on how CA & NY liquidated all of their stockpiles? This is classic misdirection. Therefore, such media reports are propaganda.

I'm not saying Trump isn't guilty of lots of propaganda, mostly in the form of narcissisms and exaggerations. But what I'm most alarmed about is that anything labeled as "scientific" is now considered to be "gospel". Experts and Doctors are to be obeyed without question, especially during a pandemic. Eminent domain should be used with no restrictions or limits or sunsets to nationalize our industries, and is a perfectly acceptable solution to most any crisis (2008 financial collapse / GM). Sure this was used a lot during WWII, but is what we're fighting now even at that level? who exactly is saying that what we're fighting is comparable to WWII and will take WWII-level nationalization of industries in order to fight it? is it the same people that used misleading video of a hospital in Italy? is it the same people who have lied about exactly how many have died of Covid vs. of seasonal flu, TB, COPD, emphysema, etc.?

Are our media outlets just so incompetent that they forget to check their sources? or is this intentional? and how is it exactly that, when I flip through national media outlets, that they often are reporting the same stories in the same way using the same videos and repeating these stories almost verbatim? don't they have any independence of each other (i.e. integrity)? sure, they take a few stylistic liberties but by & large they parrot the same stuff. This takes COORDINATION. And, where there's coordination, you can be sure that there is a CONSPIRACY. Maybe it's just a "little" one, a consipiracy to mislead the American public into panicking & voting for a stimulus bill that contains heaps of socialistic programs that have nothing to do with the pandemic, but it's a conspiracy nonetheless.

Your'e right, as a country, we've lost a lot of trust in our institutions. Even departments as innocuous as the CDC and the NIH. But, is it that we're just stupid, or are we just starting to see that there's something going on at virtually every level of our government? we can say it's just red/blue partisanship, but I think it's more than that. The level of animosity between blue & red believers takes agitation. And, when there's agitation, egged on by propaganda, you can be sure that there's organization behind it.

But what am I talking about? these are scientists, right? so were the Mossad agents sent into Iran to destroy their centrifuges. You can make almost any secret government agent to be a scientist, an engineer, an 'expert', etc., in order to infiltrate & agitate & sabotage. Some actually are scientists, but they've been approached by their country's government to recruit other scientists. If you want an illustration, just watch "The Bureau", a show about the French DGSE, Russian FSB, and CIA.

I think I need to stop, but all I want is the right to ask questions. Such as, "what exactly are you injecting into my body?" "who exactly attended Event 201?" "why do all national medial outlets act like sycophants?" ...stuff like that.

You’re giving the Media and Gov’t WAAAAAAY too much credit. They can’t be super efficient, nefarious conspirators AND so obviously and obliviously inept, stupid, corrupt and compromised.

Based on evidence, I tend to believe in their ineptitude and corruption before I believe that any of them could do anything resembling the conspiracy stories out there. And anybody who believes “there are no accidents” has never served a day in the military because half the shit that gets done is either done by enlisted personnel or by accident. Ask anyone who’s worked on the Hill, in State Gov’t, for a gov’t contractor or in any media and the overwhelming number of stories are based on what a complete clusterfuck it all is. The shocking thing is that anything gets done AT ALL.

Why is the media this way? Because they sell hysteria between fast food, pharma and insurance ads. Hysteria sells. The fourth estate has been abandoned for quite some time and more closely resembles a haunted house than the manor it was, however imperfectly designed and built.

We don’t have to indulge them. We can rationally question authority, be it governmental, scientific, or any other authority without losing our rationality.

And all that to end up with this: the way to defeat this deadly pathogen is to wash our hands, wear a mask in public and not congregate in groups.

If that’s the most that’s asked of any of us in service to our fellow man, to basically be polite and clean, what’s the complaint? That big Mask will run our lives? That big Hand Soap will steal our private lives?

What this epidemic has shown is that while the epidemiology is complex, the answers were relatively easy and painless if dealt with quickly and with uniform guidelines and adherence. I can also guarantee that if we’d just done it like South Korea, we wouldn’t be $3.5T in the hole with little to show for it.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

What the hell are you guys doing over there?

Australia just had it's 100th death today, in total.

America's population is 12 times bigger than ours. Yet you have had 218 times the amount of people who have contracted the virus and 910 times the amount that have died from it.

Something is broken over there. Health system, government, people not doing the right thing?

.

 

[Mackeyser]

Kurt, it’s about to explode here and we simply can’t go back to lockdown as it was done so poorly that it did max damage to the economy while not flattening the curve.

In 100 years, we went from a burgeoning nation not long removed from a Civil War, to a nation that began to embrace equality in real ways with universal suffrage, civil rights, etcWe embraced science and put men on the moon, a feat not accomplished by any other country even today. We cured disease and taught our children that the Atomic Age would be like nothing we could imagine.

And then we got spoiled, comfortable and lost the hard learned lessons of our forebears. Everything is instant now. People can’t wait 5 seconds for a web page to load, how could anyone expect people to wait TWO WHOLE MONTHS to avoid pandemic levels of death? To wear a mask? Wash our hands? Well, for far too many, we didn’t and we aren’t.

It used to be that “the Ugly American” was about American Exceptionalism. Now, it’s much more how we treat other Americans...badly.

I told my family...just once... how this would all turn out. It was fantastically depressing and they asked why I was telling them such grim news. I told them that if they knew what was coming, it wouldn’t be a surprise and we could behave as we saw fit to protect ourselves without being in a state of constant flux and worry.

Sadly, I was right on every count and the measures we put in place to protect ourselves (my son and soon to be daughter in law both work in the same grocery store) seem to be bearing fruit and will as long as we maintain our vigilance.

A lot of people are going to die needlessly, tragically...suffocating to death...alone on a machine.... all because too many of my fellow Americans cared more about their fucking opinions than saving the lives of their fellow citizens.

And much like the metric system, we don’t understand that... and refuse to if it means we have to change. It’s such a sad fall from Grace that it should shame every American, but as a people, we just don’t have any shame. Not any more.

I’m encouraged by the young people... but I have a feeling this age which should have been the culmination of our society will be looked at by future generations with almost as much disdain as Jim Crow or 1930s Germany...

The sad thing is that this isn’t REMOTELY the worst possible version of what could happen. What if MRSA becomes airborne? What if the next Coronavirus has a longer incubation period and longer asymptomatic contagious phase?

I dunno. Bottom line is that we don’t now and won’t for the foreseeable future have our shit together... and we’ll see all the consequences that come with that.

And maybe some football... So we got that going for us...

 

[Force16X]

.

What the hell are you guys doing over there?

Australia just had it's 100th death today, in total.

America's population is 12 times bigger than ours. Yet you have had 218 times the amount of people who have contracted the virus and 910 times the amount that have died from it.

Something is broken over there. Health system, government, people not doing the right thing?

.

the best response i've heard to your question is "individualism".
people twist the idea of "I have rights" to fit their needs and wants.
a high percentage of people (of course, no one on this site) are basically just selfish pigs to be honest. and yes, everything is broken. greed has run rampant as has the need to one up the neighbors, etc, et.al. too many people are concerned with only themselves and if they hurt / ruin / destroy / someone else on their quest to "winning" then so be it. my rant shall end before i go too far off the cliff to make it back, and since i dont have my little wile e. coyote umbrella to save me, i must stop.

one reason i post a boatload of memes is to help people laugh (hopefully) and forget about the silliness that surrounds us on a daily basis.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

best of luck.

you're getting 21k new cases per day. that's gonna be hard to pull back.

.

 

[Pancake]

Kurt, it’s about to explode here and we simply can’t go back to lockdown as it was done so poorly that it did max damage to the economy while not flattening the curve.

In 100 years, we went from a burgeoning nation not long removed from a Civil War, to a nation that began to embrace equality in real ways with universal suffrage, civil rights, etcWe embraced science and put men on the moon, a feat not accomplished by any other country even today. We cured disease and taught our children that the Atomic Age would be like nothing we could imagine.

And then we got spoiled, comfortable and lost the hard learned lessons of our forebears. Everything is instant now. People can’t wait 5 seconds for a web page to load, how could anyone expect people to wait TWO WHOLE MONTHS to avoid pandemic levels of death? To wear a mask? Wash our hands? Well, for far too many, we didn’t and we aren’t.

It used to be that “the Ugly American” was about American Exceptionalism. Now, it’s much more how we treat other Americans...badly.

I told my family...just once... how this would all turn out. It was fantastically depressing and they asked why I was telling them such grim news. I told them that if they knew what was coming, it wouldn’t be a surprise and we could behave as we saw fit to protect ourselves without being in a state of constant flux and worry.

Sadly, I was right on every count and the measures we put in place to protect ourselves (my son and soon to be daughter in law both work in the same grocery store) seem to be bearing fruit and will as long as we maintain our vigilance.

A lot of people are going to die needlessly, tragically...suffocating to death...alone on a machine.... all because too many of my fellow Americans cared more about their fucking opinions than saving the lives of their fellow citizens.

And much like the metric system, we don’t understand that... and refuse to if it means we have to change. It’s such a sad fall from Grace that it should shame every American, but as a people, we just don’t have any shame. Not any more.

I’m encouraged by the young people... but I have a feeling this age which should have been the culmination of our society will be looked at by future generations with almost as much disdain as Jim Crow or 1930s Germany...

The sad thing is that this isn’t REMOTELY the worst possible version of what could happen. What if MRSA becomes airborne? What if the next Coronavirus has a longer incubation period and longer asymptomatic contagious phase?

I dunno. Bottom line is that we don’t now and won’t for the foreseeable future have our shit together... and we’ll see all the consequences that come with that.

And maybe some football... So we got that going for us...

I hate to say I agree with everything their because it's just so sad but it's real. Yet not really a surprise. This virus has lifted the veil on corruption and selfishness like nothing before it.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

Mack, i think you are the founding member of the Branch Covidians

Enough with the politics. Enough with the what if hysteria. Listen to the good science, be safe, stay at home as much as you can.

We will get through this soon. The vaccine is coming. Have faith and don’t Koresh

 

[bluecoconuts]

Mack, i think you are the founding member of the Branch Covidians

... Is Branch Covidians not a play on Branch Davidians? I haven't heard the term before, so I'm just guessing here.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

... Is Branch Covidians not a play on Branch Davidians? I haven't heard the term before, so I'm just guessing here.

It’s an ancient term.
Typically scholars attribute it to the Codex Argenteus specifically bishop Ulfilas. But there is some debate amongst 6th century gothic scholars. Look it up

 

[bluecoconuts]

It’s an ancient term.
Typically scholars attribute it to the Codex Argenteus specifically bishop Ulfilas. But there is some debate amongst 6th century gothic scholars. Look it up

No shit, I thought it was in reference to Waco, no idea it had ancient roots.

 

[Force16X]

I’m eating raw bats to build up my tolerance
View attachment 34106

look how old he is and what he's lived through. maybe he was a"head" of his time ??

 

[XXXIVwin]

No more worries about Covid-19, Kenneth Copeland has taken care of it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi_qX50zv7k

 

[Corbin]

No more worries about Covid-19, Kenneth Copeland has taken care of it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi_qX50zv7k

That guy is a fucking tool.

 

[dieterbrock]

IMO- the biggest issue here in the US, is that the media, the politicians and social media universe is more concerned about blame than it is about reality. You'd think the nation could come together in moments like this, but nope it uses it to pull further apart.
Old Abe Lincoln said it best, "A house divided against itself cannot stand"
This was/is the perfect storm. There was no way to be prepared for this. It's literally the worst pandemic of all time x100.

 

[XXXIVwin]

IMO- the biggest issue here in the US, is that the media, the politicians and social media universe is more concerned about blame than it is about reality. You'd think the nation could come together in moments like this, but nope it uses it to pull further apart.
Old Abe Lincoln said it best, "A house divided against itself cannot stand"
This was/is the perfect storm. There was no way to be prepared for this. It's literally the worst pandemic of all time x100.

Well, I’d have to disagree with you about disagreeing.

Yes, we should come together in a crisis. OTOH, when there has been a spectacular failure of leadership causing tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, this should not be swept under the rug.

South Korea, with a densely packed population of 52 M, has had a grand total of 263 Covid deaths. The USA, with a population of 330 M, has had far more deaths than any other country, at over 90,000 and climbing. Perhaps it’s important to note and understand why S Korea is doing so well, and the USA so poorly?

And it’s not the case that “there was no way to be prepared for this.” The previous administration left behind a detailed 69-page document entitled“Playbook for Early Response to High-Consequence Emerging Infectious Disease Threats and Biological Incidents.” Sadly, the current administration completely ignored it.

Thankfully this is not the worst pandemic the world has seen... very far from it. Below is a good graphic to show the relative sizes of pandemics throughout history. And yes, the Black Plague was a doozy.

Lastly, I will agree with your Abe Lincoln quote and your concern about extreme polarization. But when it comes to gross incompetence, this needs to be called out IMHO.

 

[Mackeyser]

Mack, i think you are the founding member of the Branch Covidians

Enough with the politics. Enough with the what if hysteria. Listen to the good science, be safe, stay at home as much as you can.

We will get through this soon. The vaccine is coming. Have faith and don’t Koresh

Actually, while both 1328 and Jon brought up very specific politics, political figures and their political opinions, I have done none of that. I've specifically kept it apolitical as I care for none in the political arena. NONE. So other than saying that they all (politicians) stink, I dunno, is that political?

Am I guilty in having little faith in my fellow human right now. You damn right. And guess what. At the end of this, I'll be just as sorry to be right about this as I was about that shit 2016 Rams season that so many thought was gonna be so great.

Moreover, knowing and telling the truth isn't hysteria. Had we done nothing, it woulda been worse and with how we're doing it, we may get close to the worst case scenario, anyway.

I'm doing all I can do, which means that when people come home from work, they strip in the laundry room, go directly to the shower and ONLY THEN, can they enter the rest of the house or interact with any family. NO exceptions. So far, it's worked well and is the new routine.

We'll see if it holds up. I'm pretty much a damn astronaut, anyway, so my outside exposure was already extremely limited.

But yeah, part of this is being upset because there has already been so much needless suffering and death. The icing on this shit cake is HOW people are dying... alone... on a machine... no family or friends or even nurses around. And why? Because people can't wash their damn hands and wear a mask? They can't forgo a day at the beach or a trip to the hair dresser?

Whatever.

We used to come together in times of crisis. This is the first major crisis where the prevailing sentiment is to not do that and to really stretch the bounds of cognitive dissonance to make oneself believe that "it's not that bad".

I just don't feel like being complicit in their delusion. It IS that bad. Sorry if that ruins anyone's trip the nail salon.

 

[OldSchool]

IMO- the biggest issue here in the US, is that the media, the politicians and social media universe is more concerned about blame than it is about reality. You'd think the nation could come together in moments like this, but nope it uses it to pull further apart.
Old Abe Lincoln said it best, "A house divided against itself cannot stand"
This was/is the perfect storm. There was no way to be prepared for this. It's literally the worst pandemic of all time x100.

The Lincoln biography “Team of Rivals” is a pretty amazing read I highly recommen it. The rest of this thread has become a waste I’ll leave it again.