Covid 19 thread

[VegasRam]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

You clearly don’t understand the differences between influenza viruses and coronaviruses, so we get some folksy homily based solely on your opinion.

It’s being handed out with no consideration of how real world dangerous it is... and rest assured that it is dangerous whether you yeet the fuck out in a day or 30 years from now.

And if that isn’t bad enough, you actually think your opinion trumps the expert knowledge of virologists, epidemiologists, bioethicists and all the other scientists who LITERALLY make solving these problems their life’s work.

Science is LITERALLY all around you in this modern age and we still get this stupid shit. It’s Darwin Award level stupid and I don’t feel like sugar coating it anymore.

This old Isaac Asimov quote says it all and is more prevalent than ever:

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Thanks for the response Mack - eloquent as ever.
I understand your frustration in what you think you are responding to, which in your mind is the general widespread ignorance and stupidity of those that deny science. I never said I disagreed with the science/response to Covid-19, (which btw I should not have referred to as flu-like - my bad - I know it differs in several ways).

My question is simply this: Assuming the Covid-19 virus is not going away anytime soon, and it isn't, what is to be gained from locking ourselves in, when when we eventually come out again, the virus will still be there, as contagious as ever, and will infect people despite masking and social distancing. So give me a number Mack - how long do we shelter in place?

I'm simply getting very tired of knee-jerk responses like yours playing the "save me from these ignorant fools" card over and over, along with the implication that we place less value on life than you do. And (albeit probably well-meaning), government entities deciding policy for 3-6 months down the road based on constantly changing models that have consistently proven to be inaccurate.
And while I get that they are based on available data, (and given that, inherently ever-changing), I don't consider that science, but that's debatable I guess.

Don't have a quote from Azimov, (although I've read everything he's written-several times), so I'll go with "there's two sides to every argument". And the other side to yours, based on 'If it saves one life....", is that there are very real, very bad and very life-threatening consequences to taking the 'we need to stamp this virus out at all costs, no matter what" approach.

I'm done here, (for good), but please don't sugar coat your response.

Cheers - always enjoy reading your posts.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Just curious, to any of you who are really pushing the mask wearing thing...are you required to wear them at work?

I am when I go into work (or go to the store, etc) but that isn't too much thankfully.

 

[EastRam]

Just curious, to any of you who are really pushing the mask wearing thing...are you required to wear them at work?

Yes. And wouldn’t go to work unless it was a policy.

luckily I work in an area not exposed to customers. But if I was around customers and they weren’t required to wear a mask, I wouldn’t work

 

[EastRam]

Thanks for the response Mack - eloquent as ever.
I understand your frustration in what you think you are responding to, which in your mind is the general widespread ignorance and stupidity of those that deny science. I never said I disagreed with the science/response to Covid-19, (which btw I should not have referred to as flu-like - my bad - I know it differs in several ways).

My question is simply this: Assuming the Covid-19 virus is not going away anytime soon, and it isn't, what is to be gained from locking ourselves in, when when we eventually come out again, the virus will still be there, as contagious as ever, and will infect people despite masking and social distancing. So give me a number Mack - how long do we shelter in place?

I'm simply getting very tired of knee-jerk responses like yours playing the "save me from these ignorant fools" card over and over, along with the implication that we place less value on life than you do. And (albeit probably well-meaning), government entities deciding policy for 3-6 months down the road based on constantly changing models that have consistently proven to be inaccurate.
And while I get that they are based on available data, (and given that, inherently ever-changing), I don't consider that science, but that's debatable I guess.

Don't have a quote from Azimov, (although I've read everything he's written-several times), so I'll go with "there's two sides to every argument". And the other side to yours, based on 'If it saves one life....", is that there are very real, very bad and very life-threatening consequences to taking the 'we need to stamp this virus out at all costs, no matter what" approach.

I'm done here, (for good), but please don't sugar coat your response.

Cheers - always enjoy reading your posts.

You shouldn’t be done here.

But I’ll jump in just to be redundant.

If our ignorant leaders would lead by example and cover their stupid mouths (Masks) and lead by example this would be under Control sooner rather then later.

Correct models or incorrect models. To quote the stupidity

“What would it hurt to wear a mask!”

 

[VegasRam]

Nothing. I’m in agreement.

 

[Mackeyser]

The bottom line, Vegas, is that this was so poorly handled at every stage that we’re stuck with a really shitty outcome. At best we can parse how shitty, but my guess is that enough assholes will just YOLO this so that it’s as bad or worse than initially projected had we done nothing.

We can’t shelter in place for much longer because we don’t have the infrastructure or leadership to manage ANY kind of transition in our economy or govt. My fucking HOA which I can’t stand is more functional than the federal govt right now.

It’s not a question of if we have to eat the shitburger, but that we are now forced to eat it until we get a vaccine or it kills us. And there are millions of fucking idiots who, like drunk drivers, will kill others while emerging unscathed. To add insult to injury, they won’t have learned a single damned thing.

As for the rest of us, WE have to embrace real science.

Why?

Selfishly, if we don’t, the legal liability will prevent mass gatherings, so no sports or music events or plays or even school.
And well, the more deaths we can prevent, the better. Moreover, the less we stress the healthcare system, the better. I mean, as it is, people can’t get transplants... and heaven forbid someone gets in a bad accident...

What annoys me is that for all those who think almost all govt besides police and fire are bad, we’re soon gonna have real data about how poorly people govern themselves. It’s not gonna be pretty. Without forced curfews and mandatory rules, this COVID is gonna explode and all those shouting about their “freedums” will be shouting for the same govt they shouted at the top of their lungs to fuck off to DO SOMETHING!!!

Ya know, fix the problem without making anyone change any behaviors, cost any money or inconvenience anyone in any way. Cuz that’s realistic...

We’ll see this in the reddest and bluest of counties...in every corner of this country, so it’s not political in that respect. It’ll be equal opportunity stupid.

We've constructed the perfect scenario under which we can fix no problem, address no concern and handle no crisis. We have an Idiocracy on steroids.

Honestly, if it weren’t for my kids and the new grand baby on the way, I’d be in the Thanos didn’t go far enough camp.

So, no, we can’t shelter in place anymore. We’ll just have to ride the stupid train to the next stop and hope and pray that it doesn’t become a death train.

As for the “save me from these ignorant fools” thing, that’s real. I’m just done with people with no knowledge, expertise or training misusing or misunderstanding information put out by experts. Worse, they then turn around and use their own ignorance as “evidence” to dismiss the experts.

The amount of stupid that happened in the beginning of this simply cannot be measured. Had we done what South Korea did, we’d be reopening now with many, many thousands of people still alive AND the knowledge that there were systems in place to bolster us when the next wave hits.

We didn’t. The consequences we wouldn’t have to suffer had we been smart, humble and caring are being felt even now. It is so much salt in the wound to know so much of this could have been prevented and what comes next will be the result or our combined ignorance, arrogance and apathy toward the suffering of others.

 

[12intheBox]

View attachment 36490

 

[Mojo Ram]

The bottom line, Vegas, is that this was so poorly handled at every stage that we’re stuck with a really shitty outcome. At best we can parse how shitty, but my guess is that enough assholes will just YOLO this so that it’s as bad or worse than initially projected had we done nothing.

We can’t shelter in place for much longer because we don’t have the infrastructure or leadership to manage ANY kind of transition in our economy or govt. My fucking HOA which I can’t stand is more functional than the federal govt right now.

It’s not a question of if we have to eat the shitburger, but that we are now forced to eat it until we get a vaccine or it kills us. And there are millions of fucking idiots who, like drunk drivers, will kill others while emerging unscathed. To add insult to injury, they won’t have learned a single damned thing.

As for the rest of us, WE have to embrace real science.

Why?

Selfishly, if we don’t, the legal liability will prevent mass gatherings, so no sports or music events or plays or even school.
And well, the more deaths we can prevent, the better. Moreover, the less we stress the healthcare system, the better. I mean, as it is, people can’t get transplants... and heaven forbid someone gets in a bad accident...

What annoys me is that for all those who think almost all govt besides police and fire are bad, we’re soon gonna have real data about how poorly people govern themselves. It’s not gonna be pretty. Without forced curfews and mandatory rules, this COVID is gonna explode and all those shouting about their “freedums” will be shouting for the same govt they shouted at the top of their lungs to fuck off to DO SOMETHING!!!

Ya know, fix the problem without making anyone change any behaviors, cost any money or inconvenience anyone in any way. Cuz that’s realistic...

We’ll see this in the reddest and bluest of counties...in every corner of this country, so it’s not political in that respect. It’ll be equal opportunity stupid.

We've constructed the perfect scenario under which we can fix no problem, address no concern and handle no crisis. We have an Idiocracy on steroids.

Honestly, if it weren’t for my kids and the new grand baby on the way, I’d be in the Thanos didn’t go far enough camp.

So, no, we can’t shelter in place anymore. We’ll just have to ride the stupid train to the next stop and hope and pray that it doesn’t become a death train.

As for the “save me from these ignorant fools” thing, that’s real. I’m just done with people with no knowledge, expertise or training misusing or misunderstanding information put out by experts. Worse, they then turn around and use their own ignorance as “evidence” to dismiss the experts.

The amount of stupid that happened in the beginning of this simply cannot be measured. Had we done what South Korea did, we’d be reopening now with many, many thousands of people still alive AND the knowledge that there were systems in place to bolster us when the next wave hits.

We didn’t. The consequences we wouldn’t have to suffer had we been smart, humble and caring are being felt even now. It is so much salt in the wound to know so much of this could have been prevented and what comes next will be the result or our combined ignorance, arrogance and apathy toward the suffering of others.

I'm quoting you because although i disagree with your position on nearly all of this, i admire and respect your passion and intelligence within a discussion.

Put your Governor of the State of wherever cap on for a minute. I would really like to know how your state would look. How would it have looked in February or even today. You've been given full legislative power. Please be as specific as you can in terms of municipal restrictions and PPE and personal privileges and how and by whom your rules & regulations would be enforced and the consequences.

If you have time of course Mac.

I'm in Arizona. I never liked my Governor. I can say with a full Fonzy face that IMO he has handled Covid in THIS state very well. Clearly every state/region must be handled differently for a myriad of reasons...at least that's what i believe.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

@Mackeyser The root of much of this misinformation is political propaganda generators. I've been fighting the same battle as you on Facebook with many so called friends. They believe what they choose to believe or what their political predisposition steers them to believe. Most of it is driven by frustration, anger and fear. It's a real eye opener.

There are definitely people to blame for intentionally inciting unrest, and manipulating the emotional tumult. At this point Facebook should be banned until after the pandemic has ceased because it is the hub of misinformation that ends up misleading the masses.

My experience through the CoVid crisis has reinforced my belief that most people are intellectually inept or just controlled by a low Emotional Quotient.

 

[Neil039]

I'll dip my toe in the water here.
It's clear that local, state, and federal responses varied across the country. There was no possible way to appease everyone.
IMO, this incredibly crappy situation has opened a lot of people's eyes on how disfunctional their local governments are operating. People can use their hatred for a political party, reality is people have mostly been effected by there state governors choices. I think my governor is a complete idiot and abused his office. If you're unhappy how this played out for you, get involved locally or on a state level. Change is initiated, it just doesn't happen.
Happy Sunday everyone.

 

[12intheBox]

I'll dip my toe in the water here.
It's clear that local, state, and federal responses varied across the country. There was no possible way to appease everyone.
IMO, this incredibly crappy situation has opened a lot of people's eyes on how disfunctional their local governments are operating. People can use their hatred for a political party, reality is people have mostly been effected by there state governors choices. I think my governor is a complete idiot and abused his office. If you're unhappy how this played out for you, get involved locally or on a state level. Change is initiated, it just doesn't happen.
Happy Sunday everyone.

To me, this feels like it should have been controlled nationally if not globally. Letting 50 different governors control 50 different responses is not a valid strategy - the virus doesn’t respect state borders. We needed (still need) leadership - and it should have been driven by science and not economics.

No one wants to quarantine. No one wants economic harm. But sometimes in life, there is a threat that takes priority over everything else. I guess for some people until they personally feel this thing it just won’t be “real” enough to fight it.

 

[XXXIVwin]

I'll dip my toe in the water here.
It's clear that local, state, and federal responses varied across the country. There was no possible way to appease everyone.
IMO, this incredibly crappy situation has opened a lot of people's eyes on how disfunctional their local governments are operating. People can use their hatred for a political party, reality is people have mostly been effected by there state governors choices. I think my governor is a complete idiot and abused his office. If you're unhappy how this played out for you, get involved locally or on a state level. Change is initiated, it just doesn't happen.
Happy Sunday everyone.

Yeah, to echo 12inthebox (above), I feel the opposite. This has opened my eyes to how crappy the NATIONAL response has been.

We are the richest country in the world, and we STILL can't figure out how to provide widespread testing, let alone getting enough masks and gloves to our nurses and doctors? What an embarrassing disgrace.

The acquisition and distribution of PPE absolutely should have been coordinated on a national level. Instead, there was the ridiculous situation of individual states having to compete with one another, causing insane price gouging.

In one egregious example, the governor of Maryland decided to call in his state guard to prevent 500,000 Covid tests from being confiscated by the federal government. Ridiculous.

 

[Neil039]

This is where our need for cheaper mass produced items kills us. They come from the one main source we as a nation can't rely on...China. I'm personally all for bringing factory jobs back the the USA.

You're right about being the richest nation in the world. The natural resources here along with the space and able bodied people should make us yearn for a those jobs to return so that we can helps ourselves.

It's like a rich person struggling to make a meal because someone always has done it for them. Those days need to end IMO

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Yeah, to echo 12inthebox (above), I feel the opposite. This has opened my eyes to how crappy the NATIONAL response has been.

We are the richest country in the world, and we STILL can't figure out how to provide widespread testing, let alone getting enough masks and gloves to our nurses and doctors? What an embarrassing disgrace.

The acquisition and distribution of PPE absolutely should have been coordinated on a national level. Instead, there was the ridiculous situation of individual states having to compete with one another, causing insane price gouging.

In one egregious example, the governor of Maryland decided to call in his state guard to prevent 500,000 Covid tests from being confiscated by the federal government. Ridiculous.

The lack of preparedness was a blunder by both Trump and Obama. Neither stockpiled the supplies needed in such a scenario. But Trump was warned about the potential for a pandemic and instead of getting ready and he dismantled his Pandemic response team in what he called a reorganization. He basically shooshed it away.

The reason for state level management is that it varies from state to state. In the farm belt the virus is having a much lighter impact, due to the distance between and size of the farms. It's obviously different in other states.

In the end it's just a bunch of people trying to do the right thing. Some are leaning economy and others are leaning safety. No politician can appease everyone and the pandemic has magnified that fact tenfold. I know this. I wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes right now.

 

[bluecoconuts]

This is where our need for cheaper mass produced items kills us. They come from the one main source we as a nation can't rely on...China. I'm personally all for bringing factory jobs back the the USA.

You're right about being the richest nation in the world. The natural resources here along with the space and able bodied people should make us yearn for a those jobs to return so that we can helps ourselves.

It's like a rich person struggling to make a meal because someone always has done it for them. Those days need to end IMO

I was thinking about that walking around my neighboorhood after dinner, people could be converting their front or back yards (or a section if they have a bigger one) into small gardens with some basic fruits and vegetables. Having them organized makes it look nice, you're more controlled with your water (so less waste) and you have more fruits and veggies, good for both your wallet and your waistline.

Whenever I own my own home, I'm going to look into that. my parents have a great place and they own the lot next to them (so nobody builds a house there), and since they've already told me it's being passed down to me when they go, I could probably have a pretty good sized one. I'd just have to build fences to keep all the critters out.

 

[JonRam99]

We can’t shelter in place for much longer because we don’t have the infrastructure or leadership to manage ANY kind of transition in our economy or govt.
As for the rest of us, WE have to embrace real science.
And well, the more deaths we can prevent, the better.
We’re soon gonna have real data about how poorly people govern themselves. It’s not gonna be pretty. Without forced curfews and mandatory rules, this COVID is gonna explode and all those shouting about their “freedums” will be shouting for the same govt they shouted at the top of their lungs to DO SOMETHING!!!
We've constructed the perfect scenario under which we can fix no problem, address no concern and handle no crisis. We have an Idiocracy on steroids.
Honestly, if it weren’t for my kids and the new grand baby on the way, I’d be in the Thanos didn’t go far enough camp.
I’m just done with people with no knowledge, expertise or training misusing or misunderstanding information put out by experts.

Mac, I really hope you reconsider your position. I don't want to take your words out of context, but I felt alarmed by the things you said that I highlighted in bold above.

While there's no doubt that you are sincere, I think you underestimate the ability of political organizations to manipulate data, twist information, create propaganda, and misuse "science" to achieve power and control over national and even world populations. The rise of the National Socialist (aka NAZI) party in the 30's is sadly not our only example but it's our best example of how this happens, and how easily vast populations of well-educated people can be led to hand more & more power ("freedums') to their central governments until it's too late for "them" (common people) to do anything about it short of civil unrest & revolution. Centralizing power seems like a "smart" idea, and in many ways, communist (one-party) countries are able to "mandate" (interesting word, rooted in the ancient Chinese Mandarin government) quick actions and rapidly effect and enforce policies to control outbreaks, but the price of that level of national control is things like Tiananmen Square.

I think that the rise of the NaZi party tempted many world governments to follow their template to achieve more "efficient" control over their constituents. Their ability to manipulate the well-educated people of Germany into happily ushering them in & handing over all their freedoms was legendary. Mao used the same tactics, as well as Lenin, manipulating their young & educated, beginning with insidious education systems, to gain more & more control over universities, the press, national media, "grass roots" organizations of every kind, until one day, their entire country becomes an echo chamber populated by sycophants. And they sound "smart", they are incredibly powerful orators and exude intelligence, and everything they say seems to be "new", but it's really old (c.f. Machiavelli).

For the NaZi's, it was the Jews -- alarming and misleading their "smart" people into making foolish decisions, such as nationalizing industries, abdicating gun rights, and tracking certain demographics (Jews). For the Maoists, it was anyone over 30. For the Leninists, it was the Bourgeois & the wicked "witch" of the West (riffing on Russian childhood fears of Baba Yaga, just realized that, wow that was pretty smart). And, for us today, the popular "otherization" is anyone "clinging to their Bibles and their guns", which has now expanded to include "anti-vaxxers" during our current situation. Anyone questioning the agenda put forth by "science" (which tells us that African races are "inferior" according to such wonderful eugenicists as Darwin, Hitler and Margaret Sanger) and echoed endlessly by the national media must believe in "idiocracy", as if we'd want our national leaders to be idiots.

So, my question for you Mac, is: if it weren't for your kids / grandkids, exactly how far would you go? Which of your "freedums" guaranteed by your Constitution are you willing to "suspend" for the sake of a national pandemic response? And make no mistake -- power NEVER cedes itself. Their mandatory tracking apps and mandatory curfews and mandatory economic controls over private industries will NOT just go away, they WILL become permanent. Because, handing control over your private life & work is "smart", isn't it? Won't we live safer lives? But what's the cost to YOU?? and what WILL be the cost to those kids / grandkids of yours?

Thanos didn't go far enough? he just wanted to reduce the galactic population to "sustainable" levels, echoing Malthus. Why not do it in a "smart" way? we don't have to have a "Modest Proposal" type solution, we'll just euthanize those who are a drag on the State, such as the elderly, the crippled, the mentally incompetent, and the racially "inferior". Sound like a crazy consipracy theory? surely this couldn't happen in our modern, scientifically advanced world, right? it happened in the 30's, to a well-educated German population, and it can very, very easily happen today. All it takes are teaching our kids math problems like "how much would it save the State yearly if 30,000 deaf/dumb/blind citizens were euthanized if they cost 9,000 / year?" (a real math problem in the Nazi controlled state education system)

Your post is proof that it's already working. Many Americans are screaming for the federal government to have a "national response", in the name of "science". Case in point: the recent media articles about the new "whistleblower" scientist, Dr. Bright, who claimed he was canned because he wanted our government to have "science" based response. Digging just a bit into the article, he said such "science" based recommendations he made that he was ostensibly fired for included responding to the pandemic on a "national" level. NO science was put forth in the article; in fact, his recommendations weren't scientific, they were POLITICAL. Honestly, if the response works, what difference does it make if it's coordinated by FEMA or SEMA's??

Apparently, that difference is EVERYTHING. We've already seen it during Katrina, when political grandstanding by Louisiana state officials killed people -- buses sat there in parking lots around Baton Rouge because they first demanded assurances that FEMA would pay the costs. Buses that could have been mobilized, and were there for that very purpose, instead, sat there. But that's Louisiana, right? surely this wouldn't happen today, right? then why did Gov.'s Brown & Newsome systematically dismantle pandemic response programs & liquidate equipment (including entire field hospitals ready to go & ready to be mobilized) that Gov. Schwarzenegger built up? maybe, because it implies that the state of CA would be responsible for it's pandemic response, instead of the federal government? have you considered that possibly Trump thought he could reorganize federal pandemic programs because he thought it would be redundant, assuming states like CA and NY still had the pandemic equipment & programs they built under W??

It's obvious that there is some organization to the national media and democratic party that is pushing for more & more federal control until we resemble China. Disaster responses MUST be national. Pandemic responses MUST be national. Vaccination programs MUST be national, and MUST be carried out by multi-billion pharma corporations, many of whom have DEEP political ties. They can't simply allow common people to govern themselves, or determine our own heath care, because we're too stupid. Experts MUST control our lives, our decisions, and our work. It's "smarter", it's more efficient.... but in the end, what's the result? what's the goal? what's the dream? certainly not an American dream. It's a Soviet dream. It's a Eugenicist's dream. It's a National Socialist's dream.

Keep going in the direction you're headed, Mac... keep panicking, keep screaming for your rights to be sold for a proverbial bowl of soup, and you WILL get West Germany. Soviet Russia. Starvation. Killing Fields. Cuba. Venezuela. A Gray, Red world. We've seen the results over & over, and still we're no "smarter", we keep making the same, foolish decisions people have been making for millennia.

 

[Mackeyser]

Jon, if you think I’m in either camp Obama or Camp Trump, you’re grossly mistaken.

Obama was a corporate sellout (on a staggering level) and Trump is a grossly incompetent narcissist of the first order whose only guiding principle seems to be undoing everything Obama did because he got roasted in 2011 and he’s too fucking petty to take a single joke.

As for your political screed, it’s disingenuous and offensive. To try and defend stupidity as a defense against Nazi or Communist totalitarianism is laughably absurd. Propaganda works which is why we must be ever vigilant in fighting it, not with intractable dogma and ignorance, but with fact, logic and reason.

There is Zero chance that Trump was trying to reorganize anything. The response teams and systems set up under Obama worked. That’s why Ebola didn’t catch here even as some stupid decisions were made.

My rant, if you will, is simply about the stupidity and selfishness of us as a people. So many millions were and ARE willing to disregard anything in the public interest that inconveniences them.

In China, they’ve just recently quarantined 100 MILLION people in the northwest of their country as COVID got past their initial quarantine which while draconian was late in coming. Meanwhile, in Florida, we’re opening up like the damn pandemic is over.

Mojo, specifically what I would have done is follow the South Korea plan, mobilizing every resource possible. I would never have dismantled the pandemic response group as the SINGLE most exigent threat to our population isn’t nuclear proliferation or climate change, but a pandemic. That’s been known for a decade at least.

I wouldn’t have sold millions of PPE Units to China when we needed them for our response.

I would have redirected with the aid of Congress and the National Guard units, drive through testing and ensured that there would be NO ICE agents and no warrant serving units there as immigrants and criminals can spread COVID, too, and everyone would have to be tested. I would have used eminent domain if any lab objected to making testing units or manufacturing plant objected to making PPE at cost, seized the facilities and gotten the tests out there. Rset the precedent with the ATC.

The problem is that since Nixon, both the trust in our institutions and the function of our institutions have waned badly. Moreover, as citizens we’ve badly dropped the ball and forgotten that WE are the govt.

As for the stupid part, far too many people here in the US are just willfully ignorant, choosing to believe conspiracy theories and propaganda that validate their world view. That exists among conservatives and liberals, so anyone viewing this within the binary nonsense of Republicans and Democrats is missing the point.

The point is that we just have to get over our national inferiority complex and hold ourselves and power accountable. It also wouldn’t hurt if we could stop otherizing folks and simply employ some humanity and humility when it comes to things that affect others.

 

[JonRam99]

Thanks @Mackeyser, I appreciate your points. However, your use of the Thanos metaphor was alarming, no? which is why I brought up Malthus, as well as Swift ("A Modest Proposal"). I am in neither camp as well, I consider myself a stranger in a strange land.

Yes propaganda must be fought, but in order to see it as such, we must view all sources of information critically -- this is not the same as developing conspiracy theories. Certain "flags" indicate that information may have been manipulated to achieve a propagandist's goals -- it may contain 90% truth, but if it contains 10% falsehood, extrapolation, manipulated data, misleading polls, etc., then you can be sure there's something else behind it. For example: Dr. Bright claimed he was fired for scientific reasons. This was splashed across all major media outlets. However, his recommendations had nothing to do with science. He gave political recommendations. Therefore, he LIED. And, when there's a lie, repeated over & over by national media outlets, you can be sure there's something behind it.

Another example: one media outlet recently showed video of over-crowded hospital corridors filled with Covid patients during a segment on how Covid has overwhelmed health systems in NYC. However, the video was taken in ITALY. Therefore, they LIED. In fact, there's field hospitals right now in Central Park just waiting for Covid patients overflowing from area hospitals. Why did they lie?
Maybe the same reason that one media outlet showed a reporter reporting from a canoe during Katrina, to indicate how bad NO was flooded, criticizing the Bush administration's lack of national response, while a passerby walked behind him in inches-deep water. You need to ask yourself: are these just innocent exaggerations? Why did they lie? What was the point of the segment? to stir up political opposition? sure seems that way. Therefore, such national media segments are propaganda.

Sure, recently we "allowed" a private business to sell PPE's to China when they could've been sold to our state governments. Personally I think that sucks. But, it's a fact that some of our state governments (CA & NY that I know of) recently liquidated tons & tons of PPE's, field hospitals, ventilators, etc. that were built up during the Bush administration, when W crossed the globe trying to get the world ready for a pandemic response. Why is there a media focus on a private business being "allowed" to sell their PPE goods to China, without corresponding reporting on how CA & NY liquidated all of their stockpiles? This is classic misdirection. Therefore, such media reports are propaganda.

I'm not saying Trump isn't guilty of lots of propaganda, mostly in the form of narcissisms and exaggerations. But what I'm most alarmed about is that anything labeled as "scientific" is now considered to be "gospel". Experts and Doctors are to be obeyed without question, especially during a pandemic. Eminent domain should be used with no restrictions or limits or sunsets to nationalize our industries, and is a perfectly acceptable solution to most any crisis (2008 financial collapse / GM). Sure this was used a lot during WWII, but is what we're fighting now even at that level? who exactly is saying that what we're fighting is comparable to WWII and will take WWII-level nationalization of industries in order to fight it? is it the same people that used misleading video of a hospital in Italy? is it the same people who have lied about exactly how many have died of Covid vs. of seasonal flu, TB, COPD, emphysema, etc.?

Are our media outlets just so incompetent that they forget to check their sources? or is this intentional? and how is it exactly that, when I flip through national media outlets, that they often are reporting the same stories in the same way using the same videos and repeating these stories almost verbatim? don't they have any independence of each other (i.e. integrity)? sure, they take a few stylistic liberties but by & large they parrot the same stuff. This takes COORDINATION. And, where there's coordination, you can be sure that there is a CONSPIRACY. Maybe it's just a "little" one, a consipiracy to mislead the American public into panicking & voting for a stimulus bill that contains heaps of socialistic programs that have nothing to do with the pandemic, but it's a conspiracy nonetheless.

Your'e right, as a country, we've lost a lot of trust in our institutions. Even departments as innocuous as the CDC and the NIH. But, is it that we're just stupid, or are we just starting to see that there's something going on at virtually every level of our government? we can say it's just red/blue partisanship, but I think it's more than that. The level of animosity between blue & red believers takes agitation. And, when there's agitation, egged on by propaganda, you can be sure that there's organization behind it.

But what am I talking about? these are scientists, right? so were the Mossad agents sent into Iran to destroy their centrifuges. You can make almost any secret government agent to be a scientist, an engineer, an 'expert', etc., in order to infiltrate & agitate & sabotage. Some actually are scientists, but they've been approached by their country's government to recruit other scientists. If you want an illustration, just watch "The Bureau", a show about the French DGSE, Russian FSB, and CIA.

I think I need to stop, but all I want is the right to ask questions. Such as, "what exactly are you injecting into my body?" "who exactly attended Event 201?" "why do all national medial outlets act like sycophants?" ...stuff like that.

 

[12intheBox]

I’m all for skepticism - until it puts people in danger. People who think the Earth is flat are amusing - as long as the rocket they are tying themselves to doesn’t land in a crowd, they arent putting anyone else in danger.

Antivaxers, people who think it is fine to drive drunk, the guy who wants to put a firing range in a neighborhood - there becomes a level of “freedom” that is a problem for the rest of us.

I’m willing to meet halfway. I don’t want to screw with anybody’s freedom to live their way until it becomes a safety concern for others - and I don’t just mean kind of unsafe - there has to be a real danger there to others before we should outlaw things. I think drugs should be legal. Is it possible someone will get high and then hurt someone? Yes, but not as likely as it is that they will hurt someone if they drive a car all wasted. Heck, I tend to think suicide should be legal. I think we need to have much more in the way of mental health counseling available to people to try and make people see its a bad idea, but if someone is sane and wants to check out, who am I to tell them they can’t. Prostitution, gambling, etc - if it doesn’t have a victim other than yourself, it should be allowed.

But this isn’t really that. People who just throw caution out the window don’t take an extra risk for themselves, they increase the risk to all of us.

It is true that when the government takes control, they don’t give it back. The Patriot Act is a prime example. It is also true that we should question the government at all levels at all times. But what power is it we are worried the government is trying to exert here? A curfew? They dont want us at home - they want us out buying things. Being good little consumers.

Tracking? That ship sailed a long time ago. That phone you carry, that is your tracking device. It works very well and it has for some time. What is it about social distancing and wearing a mask that has us so worried here? That’s the ask. Stay home if you can. Wear a mask when you can’t so that when you breathe a cough and sneeze, the spread stays controlled.

Can we do that much, for your fellow humans?