Covid 19 thread

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WestCoastRam

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I linked this on another post the other day, but most people here just ignored it or glossed over it:


699 treated is starting to get into statistically significant territory. And that is here in NY.

A French doctor has done two studies as well, both with about 80 patients, and both with very high success rates. Based on those the French govt. reversed course and allowed the drug to be used to treat cases of COVID-19.

My bad man, I missed where you linked to the NYtimes piece.
 

thirteen28

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Cuomo was just on, NYS is up to 84k infected and sadly, 391 people in NYS died between Tuesday to this morning alone.

Any report or assumption that there is a slow down of any type in the NYC area is completely false.

It’s getting worse each day at the moment and we are just hoping for some grace here.

Ok, let's go over this again.

Cuomo's numbers are for THE STATE of NY - the ENTIRE STATE.

My post stated, based on the trend in numbers reported that IN THE CITY of NEW YORK, i.e. NEW YORK CITY, the trend of NEW DAILY REPORTED CASES, NEW DAILY REPORTED HOSPITALIZATIONS, and NEWLY DAILY REPORTED DEATHS was on a significant downward trend. I provided a link to data reported by the NEW YORK CITY (not state) DEPT. OF HEALTH that clearly showed the downward trend.

Yes, the cumulative numbers will still be going up. It will continue to go up every single day until you have a day with *0* new in a particular category.

The DAILY numbers are going down. Example - on 3/25, NY CITY reported 3209 NEW cases of the virus. On 3/27, they reported 2960 NEW cases. On 3/29, NY CITY reported 1905 new cases. On 3/30, NY CITY reported 1241 new cases.

3209
2960
1905
1241

What's the trend in those numbers?
 

thirteen28

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I see that now, you just simply decided it didn't count because it hasn't been updated yet, so therefore it must be complete? It doesn't work that way, that's not how you analyze data. If they are having delays in reporting then you need to wait until they get the numbers. Especially if you're going to be making claims that seem to indicate the opposite of what the data had been saying and what it's been saying elsewhere.

Again, show your work. If you want to argue that there were 75000 NEW cases in NYC in a single day, you need to back it up with something.

I've been checking that site for several days now. The only changes within the space of a few hours I have seen are in the last day for which they list data, with one exception. Without exception, all of those changes are marginal, less than a value of 20. I've seen nothing on that site after looking over several days that shows monstrous jumps of 75,000 new cases in a single day, nothing even close to that. So unless the NYC health department is lying very badly about their numbers to the tune of understating them, I'm going to assume they are at least in the ballpark.

You and others here only seem to think that you can only take this virus seriously by indulging in fear, worst case scenarios, and in responding the "proper way" to social pressure regarding what one is supposed to think about this disease. What you don't seem to grasp is that taking this disease seriously is not mutually exclusive with questioning the narratives and looking at the actual data that is coming in.

Whenever I present information that, while acknowledging the toll of the disease, does not conform to the worst case doom and gloom scenarios, you and others simply dismiss it in what is the message board equivalent of "la la la la I can't hear you". You have your narrative and you're sticking to it no matter what.

Why are you so scared that maybe, just maybe, things aren't as bad as the official, socially approved narrative suggests? Why are you so scared to acknowledge, based on data they have reported, that NYC might have turned the corner on this pandemic? Most people would think that's good news.

Looking at data that shows daily new cases in the thousands and daily deaths in the hundreds in no way diminishes the seriousness of this outbreak. Neither does looking at data that shows those numbers on a day-to-day downward trend, one that is commonly seen when outbreaks like this peak and subsequently start to subside.

If you want to think the sky is falling, that's on you. Knock yourself out. You have plenty of like-minded company. But I'm not going to get sucked into the doom and gloom worst case scenarios, from models that wildly overstate things and then refuse to adjust to new empirical data. I'm going to look at the empirical data as it comes in, and look at it relative to the projections, and give this disease the amount of seriousness that the real data and different from projections shows is justified.

Overstating the seriousness of the outbreak is just as bad as understating it.
 

Dieter the Brock

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The White House is pushing FDA to clear Fujifilm’s Avigan for COVID-19. Should the agency obey?

 

dieterbrock

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Dieter's post, responding to mine, stated (or at least appeared to state, given the way it was worded) that there were 75,000 new cases in NYC in a single day.
Total misprint by me, was typing on my phone, was talking total cases, the death total was the only one I was comparing day over day
 

dieterbrock

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The White House is pushing FDA to clear Fujifilm’s Avigan for COVID-19. Should the agency obey?

We need General Beringer at a time like this
1585767642334.jpeg
 

Akrasian

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The White House is pushing FDA to clear Fujifilm’s Avigan for COVID-19. Should the agency obey?


Or maybe medical decisions like that could be left to medical experts instead of politicians
 

dieterbrock

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Ok, let's go over this again.

Cuomo's numbers are for THE STATE of NY - the ENTIRE STATE.

My post stated, based on the trend in numbers reported that IN THE CITY of NEW YORK, i.e. NEW YORK CITY, the trend of NEW DAILY REPORTED CASES, NEW DAILY REPORTED HOSPITALIZATIONS, and NEWLY DAILY REPORTED DEATHS was on a significant downward trend. I provided a link to data reported by the NEW YORK CITY (not state) DEPT. OF HEALTH that clearly showed the downward trend.

Yes, the cumulative numbers will still be going up. It will continue to go up every single day until you have a day with *0* new in a particular category.

The DAILY numbers are going down. Example - on 3/25, NY CITY reported 3209 NEW cases of the virus. On 3/27, they reported 2960 NEW cases. On 3/29, NY CITY reported 1905 new cases. On 3/30, NY CITY reported 1241 new cases.

3209
2960
1905
1241

What's the trend in those numbers?
You can go EFF yourself with the all caps bullshit, I dont know where you live, but I am in a hot spot right off the epicenter.
The NYS numbers are relative because the 5 boroughs and Long Island comprise the majority of the fatalities.
As is Bergen County, Union County and Middlesex County NJ (Where I live)
So back to original premise that this is somewhat cooling off, you couldnt be further from the truth.
This isnt a debate about football statistics, this is real life.
 

bluecoconuts

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Again, show your work. If you want to argue that there were 75000 NEW cases in NYC in a single day, you need to back it up with something.

Uh, when did I say that?

You're the one who's literally ignoring a disclaimer and saying that I need to show my work for pointing out that ignoring a disclaimer doesn't prove your argument? What work am I to show here? Am I supposed to break down why ignoring a disclaimer doesn't work again? I assume you're smart enough to understand what I wrote the first time.

Additionally where am I trying to invoke fear? I've literally posted several times in this thread that people need to just wash their hands, not panic, and be smart about what they're doing. Just because I dismiss misleading and harmful information that flies in the face of what experts say we should be doing, doesn't mean I'm trying to invoke fear. I really don't understand your bent on trying to act like you know better than the experts, or trying to act like anyone who isn't just simply trying to hand wave this away is someone who's afraid or panicked. You think I'm afraid of a virus? You have no idea who the hell I am if you think that corona virus worries me one bit. I'm fairly certain I've already gotten and beaten that thing, I'm literally working in the epicenter of where it originally came into the United States, and watched every building around mine get cleared out by guys in Hazmat suits before they told us all to go home and stay home because members in my department that I interact with on a daily basis tested positive. Don't try to stick me in a box, you have no idea what I'm about.
 

XXXIVwin

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Overstating the seriousness of the outbreak is just as bad as understating it.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Literally dead wrong.

Tens of thousands of Americans will die needlessly because of the way this disease was underestimated for WEEKS.

The California Governor was ridiculed for “overreacting” and instituting strong social distancing measures early on.

By contrast, the Governor of Florida still —STILL— has not. (EDIT-- finally, TODAY Fla. Gov. DeSantis issues statewide lockdown... way, way, way too late).

History will show which decision saved lives, and which decision needlessly lost them.

For cripes sakes, 1328... your posts are painful to read. You just said:

“If you want to think the sky is falling, that's on you. Knock yourself out. You have plenty of like-minded company. But I'm not going to get sucked into the doom and gloom...”

Just how many ppl need to die before you can adopt a somber tone? Ten thousand? Fifty thousand? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand?

Cripes....
 
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thirteen28

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Uh, when did I say that?

You're the one who's literally ignoring a disclaimer and saying that I need to show my work for pointing out that ignoring a disclaimer doesn't prove your argument? What work am I to show here? Am I supposed to break down why ignoring a disclaimer doesn't work again? I assume you're smart enough to understand what I wrote the first time.

Let's go over it again.

I cited data that showed a downward trend in the day-to-day numbers of new cases, new hospitalizations, and new deaths in NY City. I stated there was a downward trend.

Dieter came in and stated that, no, there were 75,000 new cases, in what now appears to be a misprint (see his post upthread).

At the time I responded to him, it wasn't know that it was a misprint, so I again asserted what the numbers were saying, and also noted that they are coming from the NYC Dept. of Health, and provided links.

You came in and noted the disclaimer to cast doubt on what I was asserting (i.e. that there was a downward trend in daily positives, hospitalizations, and deaths in NYC). So that's where I brought that number in, as you seemed to be supporting Dieter and the 75k new cases that appeared to be asserted. I've conceded that the numbers can change within the space of a few hours, and I've actually seen that on that website. However, as I've noted, it's usually marginal changes to the more recent data. Data more than a day or two old has not changed on the website as long as I have been following it, so it's probably safe to assume those numbers are accurate or pretty close thereto.

As far as the rest of your post, yes, you should hear what the experts have to say. But experts, like the rest of us, are human beings and make mistakes. They are not infallible, and certainly have not been infallible in this pandemic. You should compare what they say - and especially what they project - to the actual situation that can be quantified by empirical data. In another post upthread, I compared actual hospitalizations, nationwide, with projected hospitalizations. There is a huge disparity in those numbers, with the projected numbers being several times greater than the actual numbers. When I see a disparity like that, my antenna goes up, and I begin to question the expert that made the initial projection - especially when they refuse to adjust their model to the actual data. You should too. A little skepticism, even towards the experts, can be a good, healthy thing.

I'll give you another example, completely separate from this situation. In 2002 and early 2003, all the experts in the field assured us that Iraq had large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Every one of our intelligence agencies was saying that. So were the intelligence agencies of multiple other countries, including all of those with which we have the Five Eyes agreement. To question the experts at that time caused on to be branded as unpatriotic, as someone that did not take seriously the issue of national security.

So, on the premise that Iraq had massive stockpiles of WMD's, we invaded them. And what did we find out after the invasion? That Iraq did not massive stockpiles of WMDs, and, at best, had barely functional WMD programs. The difference between what the experts told us and the actual reality was stark.

Experts can be wrong too, and badly so. It doesn't mean they are always wrong, or even mostly wrong. But it does mean you should not take them at face value, and that you should put their assertions and proclamations to the test, and assess the expert's credibility accordingly. Because, as the Iraq War shows, when they are wrong, their mistakes can have huge, negative consequences.
 
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Pancake

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I don't know about the rest of you but where I live they haven't stocked walmart or the loan grocery store we have in almost a month. My wife and I are ok for probably a month if we really ration what we have but beyond that I don't know what is going to happen. Can't even find bottled water here. Glad I have a distiller....
 

thirteen28

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Wrong. Dead wrong. Literally dead wrong.

So let's do a hypothetical then. Let's say you go to the doctor, and they find a cancerous legion on your arm. Not a huge one, maybe the size of a ladybug or two. The doctor gives you three options:

1) Do nothing.
2) Have the tumor removed from your skin and check back periodically to make sure it hasn't spread and to take additional actions if it has.
3) Chemotherapy

One of those is an overreaction, one of them is an underreaction. One of them is the right reaction.

Tens of thousands of Americans will die needlessly because of the way this disease was underestimated for WEEKS.

We're not even at 10,000 deaths now. We might be halfway to 10,000, but that is weeks and weeks into this, and at a couple weeks after we started significant social distancing, closures of schools, cancellation of large events, quarantining at home, etc. etc. etc. Where are the tens (plural) of thousands of death going to come from?

This is where my skepticism comes from, because I keep hearing dire predictions like this, and the actual reality keeps coming in at something less. For four weeks now, I have heard "next week we'll be just like Italy". And four weeks later, we are still not like Italy. We have a larger number of cases, but that's largely a function of a population that is several times that of Italy as well as the expanded testing. And still, after all these weeks, we neither have the the number of deaths that they have (we have a little more than a third of theirs as of this morning) nor do we have overloaded hospitals that has been predicted.

Doesn't the fact that the predictions have overstated the actual impact we have seen make you even a little skeptical of the dire projections?

And if the virus is spreading that bad such that 10's of thousands of deaths are imminent, with us doing such a massive lockdown as we are doing now, doesn't that suggest the lockdown is ineffective? Japan for one hasn't locked down anywhere near to the degree we have, and their numbers are significantly lower than ours, not just on an absolute basis but on a per-capita basis which is better for comparison.

By contrast, the Governor of Florida still —STILL— has not.

As of a few hours ago, he has. Still, FLA has fewer cases than a single borough, Queens, of NYC.

For cripes sakes, 1328... your posts are painful to read.

Then don't read them. I put them up but have no power to require anyone to read them. If you do, it's your choice, and if it's painful, it's self-inflicted pain. That's on you, not me.

Just how many ppl need to die before you can adopt a somber tone? Ten thousand? Fifty thousand? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand?

How many predictions have to be shown to have wildly overstated the numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths before you start to question those that are making them?
 

bluecoconuts

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Let's go over it again.

I cited data that showed a downward trend in the day-to-day numbers of new cases, new hospitalizations, and new deaths in NY City. I stated there was a downward trend.

Dieter came in and stated that, no, there were 75,000 new cases, in what now appears to be a misprint (see his post upthread).

At the time I responded to him, it wasn't know that it was a misprint, so I again asserted what the numbers were saying, and also noted that they are coming from the NYC Dept. of Health, and provided links.

You came in and noted the disclaimer to cast doubt on what I was asserting (i.e. that there was a downward trend in daily positives, hospitalizations, and deaths in NYC). So that's where I brought that number in, as you seemed to be supporting Dieter and the 75k new cases that appeared to be asserted. I've conceded that the numbers can change within the space of a few hours, and I've actually seen that on that website. However, as I've noted, it's usually marginal changes to the more recent data. Data more than a day or two old has not changed on the website as long as I have been following it, so it's probably safe to assume those numbers are accurate or pretty close thereto.

As far as the rest of your post, yes, you should hear what the experts have to say. But experts, like the rest of us, are human beings and make mistakes. They are not infallible, and certainly have not been infallible in this pandemic. You should compare what they say - and especially what they project - to the actual situation that can be quantified by empirical data. In another post upthread, I compared actual hospitalizations, nationwide, with projected hospitalizations. There is a huge disparity in those numbers, with the projected numbers being several times greater than the actual numbers. When I see a disparity like that, my antenna goes up, and I begin to question the expert that made the initial projection - especially when they refuse to adjust their model to the actual data. You should too. A little skepticism, even towards the experts, can be a good, healthy thing.

I'll give you another example, completely separate from this situation. In 2002 and early 2003, all the experts in the field assured us that Iraq had large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Every one of our intelligence agencies was saying that. So were the intelligence agencies of multiple other countries, including all of those with which we have the Five Eyes agreement. To question the experts at that time caused on to be branded as unpatriotic, as someone that did not take seriously the issue of national security.

So, on the premise that Iraq had massive stockpiles of WMD's, we invaded them. And what did we find out after the invasion? That Iraq did not massive stockpiles of WMDs, and, at best, had barely functional WMD programs. The difference between what the experts told us and the actual reality was stark.

Experts can be wrong too, and badly so. It doesn't mean they are always wrong, or even mostly wrong. But it does mean you should not take them at face value, and that you should put their assertions and proclamations to the test, and assess the expert's credibility accordingly. Because, as the Iraq War shows, when they are wrong, their mistakes can have huge, negative consequences.

I'm not Dieter, and I didn't quote his post or mention anything about his post. Hell, wasn't even paying attention to that post, I was simply looking at the link and noticed that disclaimer. Hence why I didn't even see what you had said about it until you mentioned you had addressed it.

It is not "safe to assume those numbers are accurate" not by a long shot. That's not how data analysis works, the data is incomplete, it literally says so.

The difference is that these experts have years of experience, training, and time studying these things, what qualifications do you have that makes it so we should listen to you over them?

That Iraq War analogy is absolutely terrible and does not apply whatsoever here. This is detour is skirting too close to politics for my liking, but I'll simply say that the reason why we invaded Iraq was because the OSP was specifically using unvetted intelligence that supported the administrations underlying desire to find a reason for the invasion. This is not a similar type of scenario at all. I'm extremely familiar with the reasons why the United States invaded Iraq.

Are numbers likely to go down? Yes they are. Why? Because of the very precautions put in place that you have argued against and argued for lifting/relaxing. So what credibility do you bring to the table?
 

bluecoconuts

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I don't know about the rest of you but where I live they haven't stocked walmart or the loan grocery store we have in almost a month. My wife and I are ok for probably a month if we really ration what we have but beyond that I don't know what is going to happen. Can't even find bottled water here. Glad I have a distiller....

That sucks, sorry to hear. I haven't had any shortages at my grocery store, I go every few days to get stuff, hopefully they get yours back up and running soon.
 

thirteen28

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It is not "safe to assume those numbers are accurate" not by a long shot. That's not how data analysis works, the data is incomplete, it literally says so.

So, are you suggesting that the NYC Dept. of Health is misreporting their numbers? Are you suggesting they are off by a factor of 2, 3, 5, 10 or some other number? They may be adjusted over time, but generally speaking the numbers that are a few days old and older have remained steady. So basically, you are trying to cast aspersions on the numbers as if they are meaningless. But you are not providing any support for that position.

The difference is that these experts have years of experience, training, and time studying these things, what qualifications do you have that makes it so we should listen to you over them?

You shouldn't listen to me over them. You should judge them based on the results though, weighing the actual numbers vs. their projections, and adjusting you assessment of them accordingly. Otherwise, you are just engaging in the classic appeal to authority fallacy.

Steve Spagnuolo had years of experience, training and time studying football. He knows more about the subtleties of football than 99% of us who post here. He was a coordinator under Super Bowl winning coaches. Should I judge his abilities solely on those credentials? Or should I look at the results he got here, with the Rams, and conclude that he was a lousy head coach? I'll go with the latter.

Sean McVay, on the other hand, had far less experience and training than Steve Spagnuolo when he walked into the Rams facilities. He was less than a decade removed from playing football in college. He had a stint as a lower ranking assistant, a couple more years as a TE coach, and a couple more as an OC. His higher ranking positions occurred in one of the worst organizations in the NFL. Should I judge him as not fit to be Rams coach because his years of experience before he walked through the door was lacking? Or should I judge him by the fact that he's won 33 games in 3 seasons and has shown himself to be a very effective head coach? Again, I'll go with the latter.

Remember the director general of the WHO? He's an expert, is he not? He told us in January that COVID-19 could NOT be spread from human to human? Should I listen to him because he's an expert and has many more years of training and much more experience and knowledge in matters of public health than I do? Or should I question his credibility since he fucked up in a major way, telling us that a virus that is indeed spreadable by human to human contact couldn't, according to his expert opinion, be spread in such a manner.

Don't judge the experts by their titles, credentials, experience, etc. Judge them by their results.

Think for yourself.
 
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snackdaddy

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That sucks, sorry to hear. I haven't had any shortages at my grocery store, I go every few days to get stuff, hopefully they get yours back up and running soon.

I'm seeing shortages of the items people were panic buying over in my county. Still can't figure out why eggs keep running out. And we only have 10 confirmed cases so far and no deaths. Cold food like meats and dairy are still plentiful. Rice and beans can be hard to find. And there hasn't been any alcohol or hand sanitizer in weeks.

I am seeing limits on items. Which can be exasperating. On one hand, I can see why limits are necessary with all the hoarding. On the other hand, it means I have to go back to the store more often because I will run out faster. But the governor wants me to stay home as much as possible. Kinda frustrating.
 
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