Covid 19 thread

[12intheBox]

Honest question here and I think the answer and the whole train of thought is quite sad. But how can you expect people in this country to have an honest and thoughtful debate anymore? Most people would rather assign hateful adjectives to somebody than open up their minds to have a discushion. Most people will look at a headline and grab one stat from it and run with that when a further dig into the numbers will show you a vastly different story than the big money headline, sensationalism sells and people refuse outside thought. We’re truly in a sad state in this country. Best of luck to you and apologies if I helped drag you back in here even if it was just for a minute. Everybody knows I rarely participate in this thread.

Spot on. Healthy dialogue seems to have almost completely exited our country. In its place, we accuse each of other of lying, call each other names, we “whatabout”, we cherry-pick, and we straw-man.

Disinformation flies around at the speed of information and seems to get at least equal amplification.

A long long time ago, I was waiting tables and Bob Costas came in. I smothered him asking questions and trying to pick his brain.

What he told me has stuck with me.

He said that there are two ways to get attention in this country. One is to be consistent, level headed, and to be really lucky. The other is to have such an outlandish take on things that you call attention to yourself. That this second way is the shortcut that we see happen so much in the media. No one wants to be patient and hope they get lucky - they want the attention now so they say things they don’t really mean.

I think we see a lot of this. The loudest voices on both sides of most issues are the extreme voices. And they are so loud, that the measured responses get muted out.

I don’t know the fix, but I’d love to be able to mute out the extremes some how.

 

[oldnotdead]

We'll see if that holds up. If it does, that also means that there may never be an effective vaccine. I, for one, will not not be an early-adopter of any vaccine when it comes out but instead will wait and see how it goes. But I'm 54, in good shape, and don't have any of the other risk factors.

How a vaccine works and how so-called natural herd immunity works are different mechanisms. The vaccine stays in the system longer and provides a higher more comprehensive level of immunity than simple non-vaccinated immunity. The only way to achieve real "herd immunity" is via vaccination. Vaccinations slow and eventually preclude the spread of the disease by staying in the system long enough for the "herd effect to be achieved". Tweaking an existing vaccine to keep up with mutations is much easier than starting to find one from scratch as the medical professionals have the basic blueprint from which to work. The common flu vaccine is an example.

Research is showing that "natural immunity" with COVID 19 is a myth. This information is nothing new. It's been known and accepted that previous exposure to COVID 19 does not preclude reinfection. This was found months ago but suppressed.

Personally I don't care what political party you affiliate with. Americans are being lied to by our government. We must abide by the recommendations of the medical professionals who truly understand what is happening. My friends are both Republican and Democrat and agree this isn't about politics, it's about life and death. Complacency is dangerous as COVID 19 has shown that deaths are not limited to the vulnerable. Previously healthy, low-risk individuals have gotten sick and died. Low risk doesn't mean no risk.

 

[oldnotdead]

Ok for clarification. The body creates antibodies when the infection is detected. The problem is two-fold. If the infection is especially virulent it might overwhelm the body's ability to respond quickly enough (high-risk individuals). Once the infection is deemed suppressed, (not necessarily gone) the body stops producing the antibodies. In the case of COVID 19 the antibodies are gone within a matter of a few weeks leaving the person once again vulnerable. Worse yet who knows what damage has been done during the infection.

A vaccine isn't antibodies, it's mechanism is to stay in the body to constantly stimulate the production of antibodies to combat the particular infection. So dead antibodies are constantly replaced with new ones as the body is tricked into believing that the infection has not been suppressed. Since the antibodies are present prior to infection the virus can't replicate fast enough to do the damage it's capable of. This is why the herd immunity for COVID 19 is only going to happen when there is a vaccine.

 

[Mackeyser]

Okay I’ll admit it’s possible my flu take represented “alternate facts” lol, I know you like that one.

On the other issues, I’d say one of us 75% wrong, yet it’s 50/50 just which of us is, that’s damn close to a Yogi reference

If we both manage to survive this, we may find out who was closer to being halfway right

btw, were you a Wentz guy like your brother Mack? Be honest now, lol

Hey! Low blow! I wasn’t a Wentz guy. My take was that I didn’t think the Rams would fire Jeff Fisher. Under that scenario, a HC who had never developed a pocket QB (Steve McNair was more of a mobile playmaker and Kerry Collins had already been developed in NY) wasn’t gonna start after 20 years. In that case, Wentz was the better choice. I TOLD y’all what Goff would look like under Fisher and he looked like all the ass. BUT...I also said that give us an HC like Asshole Face and Goff all day, errrrrday. We got McVay and just 2 years in, he leads the team to the Super Bowl.

C’mon man. I called it. LOL!!!

 

[Mackeyser]

The biggest thing I have noticed about those that wear masks, is that the masks are usually filthy like they have been touched a thousand times and not washed recently. I wear a mask when I have to for work and make sure once its been worn it goes in the dirty bag and I have my wife wash them every weekend. She just dumps the bag in the washer along with her bag of masks, no touching. I dont wear a mask shopping, mainly because the science says it does no good for me or others. And I am just in there to get my shit and get out. We dont make it a family outing and I know what I am there for and where it is. I have actually found that by not wearing a mask, people are more likely to get out of my way and let me shop while they try to decide which brand canned pineapple they want or what size bottle of ketchup to get. It amazes me that people believe it is dangerous enough to wear a mask, but not too dangerous to make a family outing of it and spend God knows how long in the store that is so dangerous. I am in, out and back home in under 30 mins. I figure if masks dont slow the spread of cold and flu why would we expect them to slow the spread of covid. There have been several studies over the years showing masks dont slow or stop other corona viruses and I will go out on a limb and suggest covid is just like other corona viruses when it comes to the size of the spores. Once a mask gets wet, about 5 minutes if your lucky. As you exhale that moisture is forced out and broadcast even further than if there were no mask, at least thats what I have read and heard from Drs. And it makes sense if you think about it. If my employer left it up to me I would only wear a mask when the customer wishes I do so, which wouldnt be very often. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week, most customers are sick of the lockdown and just want this to get over with, herd immunity more quickly, not the long slow drawn out kill as many people as possible way it is being done or been done by many states. The only reason we have so many more cases than other countries is because we test way more people, than other countries. We even test people that never felt sick and end up testing positive. Other countries only test the sick. Last I looked the rate of positive cases hasnt jumped dramatically while the deaths have dropped off steadily nation wide with some states increasing and others decreasing.

Thats. Not. How. Masks. Work.

Holy Cow. I swear, I keep saying it and every few pages, someone either gets the science wrong or misinterprets why we are directed to wear masks.

Does it make it okay to not wear masks because some idiot wears a dirty mask? No. Of course not.

So I’ll repeat. The mask isn’t to protect you. It’s to protect others in case you are Typhoid Mary and contagious while also being asymptomatic.

Why. Is. This. So. Hard.

 

[Mackeyser]

The biggest thing I have noticed about those that wear masks, is that the masks are usually filthy like they have been touched a thousand times and not washed recently. I wear a mask when I have to for work and make sure once its been worn it goes in the dirty bag and I have my wife wash them every weekend. She just dumps the bag in the washer along with her bag of masks, no touching. I dont wear a mask shopping, mainly because the science says it does no good for me or others. And I am just in there to get my shit and get out. We dont make it a family outing and I know what I am there for and where it is. I have actually found that by not wearing a mask, people are more likely to get out of my way and let me shop while they try to decide which brand canned pineapple they want or what size bottle of ketchup to get. It amazes me that people believe it is dangerous enough to wear a mask, but not too dangerous to make a family outing of it and spend God knows how long in the store that is so dangerous. I am in, out and back home in under 30 mins. I figure if masks dont slow the spread of cold and flu why would we expect them to slow the spread of covid. There have been several studies over the years showing masks dont slow or stop other corona viruses and I will go out on a limb and suggest covid is just like other corona viruses when it comes to the size of the spores. Once a mask gets wet, about 5 minutes if your lucky. As you exhale that moisture is forced out and broadcast even further than if there were no mask, at least thats what I have read and heard from Drs. And it makes sense if you think about it. If my employer left it up to me I would only wear a mask when the customer wishes I do so, which wouldnt be very often. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week, most customers are sick of the lockdown and just want this to get over with, herd immunity more quickly, not the long slow drawn out kill as many people as possible way it is being done or been done by many states. The only reason we have so many more cases than other countries is because we test way more people, than other countries. We even test people that never felt sick and end up testing positive. Other countries only test the sick. Last I looked the rate of positive cases hasnt jumped dramatically while the deaths have dropped off steadily nation wide with some states increasing and others decreasing.

Also, if what you said were remotely true (and we have more than 70 years of data to back this up wrt surgeries and rates of post surgical infection rates), then in order to maintain a sterile field, the surgeon would have to swap masks every few minutes are wear something much more stringent than an N95 mask.

They don’t wear anything beyond surgical masks except in rare conditions because that info is hogwash. Surgical masks work. Now, the old cloth masks like they wore on MASH? Not as good, but still good enough to do an extended surgery and maintain a sterile field back then...

Sorry, but I just have to smash the mask nonsense. Masks save lives and wearing masks is our PATRIOTIC DUTY!

 

[Mackeyser]

I will say one thing, and I really don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm a personal liberty guy.. The wearing of masks, and more the coercion of people into wearing masks has a limit for me. I will not wear masks after a certain point and anyone telling me to do so in a year will get the stink eye from me or worse. Yes, there are vulnerable people to Covid, but humanity has been getting all sorts o bugs in the air for the last 40,000 years. This seems to be a long term game by germaphobes to force everyone to wear masks by appealing to your sympathy. Do I wear masks now? Yes, because I choose to in courtesy for others until it seems like they have a handle on things. If they never do, then fukk that in the ass.

Well, I’m a Constitution guy. In Jacobson v Massachusetts, SCOTUS upheld mandatory small pox vaccinations in order to protect the common welfare. From the wiki: The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

They could mandate them with criminal penalties for non-compliance. What’s funny is that if you defy it, you go to jail where... by then it’d be mandatory and you wouldn’t have the right to object.

Prolly better to wear it as long as needed because if the politicos seewe’re not making fast enough progress, it’ll be mandatory.

So give me the stink eye all you like, but imma cast my judgment eye on anyone not wearing a mask while embracing the Constitution and the SCOTUS decisions that define it (even as I disagree with plenty, past and present)

Just sayin... oh, and that survival of the fittest mess is the antithesis of civilization. Why is this still a question?

 

[SWAdude]

Very Interesting.

Thats. Not. How. Masks. Work.

Holy Cow. I swear, I keep saying it and every few pages, someone either gets the science wrong or misinterprets why we are directed to wear masks.

Does it make it okay to not wear masks because some idiot wears a dirty mask? No. Of course not.

So I’ll repeat. The mask isn’t to protect you. It’s to protect others in case you are Typhoid Mary and contagious while also being asymptomatic.

Why. Is. This. So. Hard.

Because it is not entirely true. The narrative does not make sense. And this is common sense.

Just take a moment and think about this. Your words....."The mask isn’t to protect you. It’s to protect others........"

It is a barrier I believe we can all agree. Why is it only one way? I will continue but really want this to sink in. Why is the narrative one way?

 

[Mackeyser]

1918 Spanish Flu, 55 million died in a world composed of1.8 billion people.

2020 COVID 19 Armageddon, 565K have died in world composed of 7.8 billion.

So...we’re supposed to ignore a century of medical progress fro the discovery of the germ all the way to being able to quickly map the DNA of a virus?

We’re supposed to ignore rapid global communication and coordinated response as imperfect ad?

We’re supposed to ignore that due to the Sedition Act of 1918, printing news that would lower morale during wartime was illegal and as such, there was almost no coverage of the illness until it became a global pandemic?


Context is everything.

I mean if someone said, 9/11 ONLY took less than 3,000 lives and heart disease takes over 600k lives per year and we don’t have a Dept of Heartland Security...well that would be gross...but also grossly missing the context of why the events of that day changed this country forever.

Please let’s not devolve into acontextual numbers as a means to improperly support an argument.

 

[Mackeyser]

Very Interesting.


Because it is not entirely true. The narrative does not make sense. And this is common sense.

Just take a moment and think about this. Your words....."The mask isn’t to protect you. It’s to protect others........"

It is a barrier I believe we can all agree. Why is it only one way? I will continue but really want this to sink in. Why is the narrative one way?

It’s not a narrative, it’s many many years of established science.

Initially, because the scientists didn’t know fully about COVID, they thought it was airborne like SARS, another coronavirus. If you only know one thing about contagions, it’s that the most panic inducing from a scientific and governance perspective is airborne contaminants as there is simply no way for everyone to be fully protected. For airborne viruses, non-sealing masks don’t offer much protection and diverting any PPE from first responders in such a situation is bad.

But COVID-19 requires water droplets and masks are hella effective at preventing people from spitting out water droplets on people. However, if the water droplets are in the air, the surgical masks and basic filter masks most people wear will not stop that small water droplet from COVID-19 from getting in.

THAT’S why we all need to wear masks.

The masks are to block our spit, not the spit of others. If you don’t want others’ spit, then THEY need to be masked up as well.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[Mackeyser]

They say the eyes are the windows to the soul . . . I think she got some messed up soul in there:

I legit thought that was Stacy Dash for a minute...

 

[SWAdude]

It’s not a narrative, it’s many many years of established science.

Initially, because the scientists didn’t know fully about COVID, they thought it was airborne like SARS, another coronavirus. If you only know one thing about contagions, it’s that the most panic inducing from a scientific and governance perspective is airborne contaminants as there is simply no way for everyone to be fully protected. For airborne viruses, non-sealing masks don’t offer much protection and diverting any PPE from first responders in such a situation is bad.

But COVID-19 requires water droplets and masks are hella effective at preventing people from spitting out water droplets on people. However, if the water droplets are in the air, the surgical masks and basic filter masks most people wear will not stop that small water droplet from COVID-19 from getting in.

THAT’S why we all need to wear masks.

The masks are to block our spit, not the spit of others. If you don’t want others’ spit, then THEY need to be masked up as well.

Hope that clarifies things.

With all due respect, I have my detailed understanding as you have. I would never think I am teaching you anything. I trust you have done your footwork as passionate as you are. That I hope you know is a compliment.

FACT:

The mask PROTECTS oneself 30-65%. The best I have seen for mask protecting others is 70%. Respectable amount.

Together the best info I have found is two people wearing masks protect each other is 98.5%.

So I will ask you again, why is the narrative one way? It PROTECTS both of us enough to make it part of the narrative. But it is not.

I too consider myself as a Constitutionalist as you have alluded to for yourself. But you have to wonder why the overwhelming one way narrative.

I use common sense with the guidelines we have been given and the environment I am in. I am not wearing a mask and gloves driving alone in my car. I also don't walk like a grey back in the store without a mask. This is an easy one for me.

 

[Loyal]

Well, I’m a Constitution guy. In Jacobson v Massachusetts, SCOTUS upheld mandatory small pox vaccinations in order to protect the common welfare. From the wiki: The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

They could mandate them with criminal penalties for non-compliance. What’s funny is that if you defy it, you go to jail where... by then it’d be mandatory and you wouldn’t have the right to object.

Prolly better to wear it as long as needed because if the politicos seewe’re not making fast enough progress, it’ll be mandatory.

So give me the stink eye all you like, but imma cast my judgment eye on anyone not wearing a mask while embracing the Constitution and the SCOTUS decisions that define it (even as I disagree with plenty, past and present)

Just sayin... oh, and that survival of the fittest mess is the antithesis of civilization. Why is this still a question?

Well Mack, that's why I have the signature that I do.

 

[Loyal]

So...we’re supposed to ignore a century of medical progress fro the discovery of the germ all the way to being able to quickly map the DNA of a virus?

We’re supposed to ignore rapid global communication and coordinated response as imperfect ad?

We’re supposed to ignore that due to the Sedition Act of 1918, printing news that would lower morale during wartime was illegal and as such, there was almost no coverage of the illness until it became a global pandemic?


Context is everything.

I mean if someone said, 9/11 ONLY took less than 3,000 lives and heart disease takes over 600k lives per year and we don’t have a Dept of Heartland Security...well that would be gross...but also grossly missing the context of why the events of that day changed this country forever.

Please let’s not devolve into acontextual numbers as a means to improperly support an argument.

well, you're wrong. I'm a historian that believes in context. My original post had more to do with the severity of the crisis. It doesn't approach the severity of the Spanish Flu, regardless of the era. Global communications are good, but it also spreads fear like a wildfire. As for your previous post and this one, fear is a weapon against liberty. It just is. Trading security for safety is a good way to flex authoritarian muscles of the state. And I could give a shyte if you cast a judgmental eye if I don't bow down to the mob in a year's time, and it won't be just me.

 

[Loyal]

Well Mack, that's why I have the signature that I do.

lol...oh shyte, I forgot that I changed it! It used to be:
"You are entitled to your incorrect opinion."

 

[Loyal]

And so survival of the fittest (which is not me) is an outmoded idea? We better get word to all HS biology classes about that change,,

 

[Dieter the Brock]

Ok for clarification. The body creates antibodies when the infection is detected. The problem is two-fold. If the infection is especially virulent it might overwhelm the body's ability to respond quickly enough (high-risk individuals). Once the infection is deemed suppressed, (not necessarily gone) the body stops producing the antibodies. In the case of COVID 19 the antibodies are gone within a matter of a few weeks leaving the person once again vulnerable. Worse yet who knows what damage has been done during the infection.

A vaccine isn't antibodies, it's mechanism is to stay in the body to constantly stimulate the production of antibodies to combat the particular infection. So dead antibodies are constantly replaced with new ones as the body is tricked into believing that the infection has not been suppressed. Since the antibodies are present prior to infection the virus can't replicate fast enough to do the damage it's capable of. This is why the herd immunity for COVID 19 is only going to happen when there is a vaccine.

Where is the info you are drawing from that says the anti-bodies of a recovered patient lasts only weeks?

I thought this info was months - now it’s weeks.

* It’s funny how the bodies immune system has been given the pink slip during this C19

 

[bluecoconuts]

And so survival of the fittest (which is not me) is an outmoded idea? We better get word to all HS biology classes about that change,,

I think he’s getting at the idea that survival of the fittest defies the social contract. Survival of the fittest suggests that if I want what you have, I just kill you and take it. Don’t like it? Get stronger bitch, it’s mine now. Social contract suggests that we’re all in this together so we sacrifice certain things, such as our ability to physically dominate each other, in exchange for the safety of not having to look over our shoulder.

Probably gets into the whole Hobbes vs Locke state of nature debate.

If you feel safe leaving your home and going about your day, then you trust enough people to follow the social contract and leave your shit alone. Survival of the fittest would mean you don’t leave your shit, because then you know it’s free game for everyone else.

I think that’s what he means, I could be totally wrong, just how I read it.

Obviously in terms of evolution, nature, and stuff that still matters. Social contract breaks down, survival of the fittest applies real quick. Its part of why I’m happy where I am, I live in a house and a block of softness, it’ll be a comfy walk to the top of that pecking order.

 

[Loyal]

I think he’s getting at the idea that survival of the fittest defies the social contract. Survival of the fittest suggests that if I want what you have, I just kill you and take it. Don’t like it? Get stronger bitch, it’s mine now. Social contract suggests that we’re all in this together so we sacrifice certain things, such as our ability to physically dominate each other, in exchange for the safety of not having to look over our shoulder.

Probably gets into the whole Hobbes vs Locke state of nature debate.

If you feel safe leaving your home and going about your day, then you trust enough people to follow the social contract and leave your shit alone. Survival of the fittest would mean you don’t leave your shit, because then you know it’s free game for everyone else.

I think that’s what he means, I could be totally wrong, just how I read it.

Obviously in terms of evolution, nature, and stuff that still matters. Social contract breaks down, survival of the fittest applies real quick. Its part of why I’m happy where I am, I live in a house and a block of softness, it’ll be a comfy walk to the top of that pecking order.

I don't disagree with the social contract, but as you say, that's only in good times. There is no smooth flow of an ever increasingly more civil compact with one another. It's an illusion that we all like in Western society. I respect the rights of women and enjoy the equality of our imperfect society, but I know (as do you) how quickly civility goes away when a victor sweeps over conquered territory. Property confiscation, rape, murder by a foreign army through civilian areas dispels the illusion of civility, and there are no "good" guys as far as this goes. Western forces were just as guilty as Soviets in 1945 Europe, among friends and foes.

It's savage, but survival of the fittest still reigns.

 

[snackdaddy]

This thing is still pretty new to the experts. They've recently added new symptoms to the list. They're still finding things out and its gonna take time. We could blame the federal government or the individual states. But this is new territory for all of us. And early on we kept getting conflicting information. Masks were ineffective. Now they can save lives. It isn't that bad there, but its a disaster here. If we get the virus and recover are we immune? Not sure. Maybe. Then again maybe not. Nothing is 100 percent. Some people could develop immunity. Some could get it again. They do say the Spanish Flu declined because so many got it, recovered and developed an immunity. But I'll bet the immunity wasn't 100 percent. Right now we don't know if that could happen with this one. I've been around for a lot of years and I've never experienced anything like this. Neither has anyone else.