Covid 19 thread

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Mojo Ram

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Moreover, hospitals can be held criminally or civilly liable for upcoding cases
Well okay...
Come on man, we both know that when it comes to the big business of billionaires...that any matters concerning "better business" practices and such are optional, Lol.

It sounds ridiculous but modern big business has learned a lot from the Mob of the past. As long as you own interest in everything you can get away with most anything.
 

12intheBox

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Well okay...
Come on man, we both know that when it comes to the big business of billionaires...that any matters concerning "better business" practices and such are optional, Lol.

It sounds ridiculous but modern big business has learned a lot from the Mob of the past. As long as you own interest in everything you can get away with most anything.

Disagreed. It takes a while - but the paper trail catches up. There were actually quite a few criminal prosecutions that ended in jail time based on fraud in the bank bail outs.

It will take investigators and prosecutors who want to look, of course - but while white collar crime doesn’t get the same kind of headlines that street level crime gets - it really does get prosecuted.
 

XXXIVwin

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Turn around is fair play, isn't it flv? Pro-mask fascists who through law or guilt tripping are trying force those who have never worn masks their entire life to submit. To be clear, I am in the high risk group due to age and health condition. I choose to wear a mask right now, which coincides with a work requirement by my employer at work. When I am tired of it, I will quit.

There is no vaccine and there is likely to be NO vaccine for years to come. When I wear my surgical mask, where I constantly breathe moist air and it's literally hard for me to breathe after 4 hours, yet I can smell top ramen noodles cooking through the mask. Suure that's also stopping covid particles...sure it is.

It is my belief, like Churchill believed, that the only way through hell is straight through and don't stop. I think we're all going to get it eventually and herd immunity is the only way out. Sure the spread is slowed more effectively in some places than others, but it really hasn't stopped, anywhere.

Great googly moogly I so profoundly disagree with so many things in this post. Nothing personal at all, Loyal! I generally love yer posts and especially yer sense of humor!

"Pro-mask fascists:" The great majority of people on both sides of the political spectrum are strongly in favor of masks. The debate has changed just in the last couple of weeks, especially. The debate will fade away even more now that the president wore a mask in public yesterday.

"There is no vaccine and there is likely to be NO vaccine for years to come." Really don't know what you are basing this on. From everything I have seen, the projections are that front-line workers will be getting vaccinated in Nov or Dec., and then hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine will be available to US citizens sometime in early January. The Nerds in the USA are working their asses off on a vaccine, and they're coming to save the day.

E50C8431-43E1-469B-AB29-81789036D3BF.jpeg


"Suure that's also stopping covid particles...sure it is." Masks are great at limiting the outward expulsion of droplets, but are crappy at preventing them from seeping through. Tons of articles about this. @Mackeyser went into this at length around pages 70-73 or so in this thread.

Best analogy: imagine if the virus spread by ppl walking around peeing on each other. If you're wearing jeans, and someone pees on you, it will still seep through. But if you are wearing jeans and try to pee on someone else, jeans are effective in preventing the ejection of fluid.

Masks work the same way. Mostly effective at preventing the ejection of droplets. Poor at preventing droplets from seeping through. Masks are primarily worn to protect others from the wearer. Masks don't do a whole lot to protect the wearer from others. (A few exceptions of course, such as the medical grade N-95 masks, which can protect the wearer.)

"It is my belief, like Churchill believed, that the only way through hell is straight through and don't stop. I think we're all going to get it eventually and herd immunity is the only way out." Couldn't disagree more. We don't need to go through hell and shouldn't have to. I'd bet that almost every epidemiologist on the planet now believes that purposefully "allowing" everyone to get sick is just a recipe for millions of people to die needlessly. The vaccine is coming soon to save the day.

"Sure the spread is slowed more effectively in some places than others, but it really hasn't stopped, anywhere." The differences in the ways some people have fought this are profound. Like a forest fire. In some places, the containment has been very strong. In other places, the fire is raging. Simply put, some places have done it right, and some places have done it wrong. The numbers bear out the story.

Again, Loyal, sorry we seem to disagree on this so much, but please know the disagreement is based on nothing personal whatsoever. You seem as affable as all get-out. :D Always enjoy reading your posts. Cheers.
 
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kurtfaulk

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Ms Lorraine shared a BBC story on Twitter about Victoria entering a second stage of lockdown, as 273 new coronavirus cases were recorded on Sunday.

“This is literally Prison. Total enslavement,” she wrote.

“Australians aren’t allowed to even leave their own homes for 6 plus weeks? Police put a ‘ring of steel’ around the city, with ‘checkpoints anytime anywhere’ to enforce the measures? SICK. Fight this people!”


where do you guys find these fruit loops?

.
 

TSFH Fan

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Ms Lorraine shared a BBC story on Twitter about Victoria entering a second stage of lockdown, as 273 new coronavirus cases were recorded on Sunday.

“This is literally Prison. Total enslavement,” she wrote.

“Australians aren’t allowed to even leave their own homes for 6 plus weeks? Police put a ‘ring of steel’ around the city, with ‘checkpoints anytime anywhere’ to enforce the measures? SICK. Fight this people!”


where do you guys find these fruit loops?

.

They say the eyes are the windows to the soul . . . I think she got some messed up soul in there:

11852992bc3d9246960db83c01d1f9aa
 

kurtfaulk

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well it's back in sydney.

somebody from melbourne has come up here and spread the virus to unsuspecting people. 4 or 5 cases a day. we know the drill. it will turn into 10 a day, then 30 a day and before you know it we'll be in the hundreds a day again.

the mask will have to come back out for me. no supermarket runs for me.

.
 

Loyal

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Great googly moogly I so profoundly disagree with so many things in this post. Nothing personal at all, Loyal! I generally love yer posts and especially yer sense of humor!

"Pro-mask fascists:" The great majority of people on both sides of the political spectrum are strongly in favor of masks. The debate has changed just in the last couple of weeks, especially. The debate will fade away even more now that the president wore a mask in public yesterday.

"There is no vaccine and there is likely to be NO vaccine for years to come." Really don't know what you are basing this on. From everything I have seen, the projections are that front-line workers will be getting vaccinated in Nov or Dec., and then hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine will be available to US citizens sometime in early January. The Nerds in the USA are working their asses off on a vaccine, and they're coming to save the day.

View attachment 37355

"Suure that's also stopping covid particles...sure it is." Masks are great at limiting the outward expulsion of droplets, but are crappy at preventing them from seeping through. Tons of articles about this. @Mackeyser went into this at length around pages 70-73 or so in this thread.

Best analogy: imagine if the virus spread by ppl walking around peeing on each other. If you're wearing jeans, and someone pees on you, it will still seep through. But if you are wearing jeans and try to pee on someone else, jeans are effective in preventing the ejection of fluid.

Masks work the same way. Mostly effective at preventing the ejection of droplets. Poor at preventing droplets from seeping through. Masks are primarily worn to protect others from the wearer. Masks don't do a whole lot to protect the wearer from others. (A few exceptions of course, such as the medical grade N-95 masks, which can protect the wearer.)

"It is my belief, like Churchill believed, that the only way through hell is straight through and don't stop. I think we're all going to get it eventually and herd immunity is the only way out." Couldn't disagree more. We don't need to go through hell and shouldn't have to. I'd bet that almost every epidemiologist on the planet now believes that purposefully "allowing" everyone to get sick is just a recipe for millions of people to die needlessly. The vaccine is coming soon to save the day.

"Sure the spread is slowed more effectively in some places than others, but it really hasn't stopped, anywhere." The differences in the ways some people have fought this are profound. Like a forest fire. In some places, the containment has been very strong. In other places, the fire is raging. Simply put, some places have done it right, and some places have done it wrong. The numbers bear out the story.

Again, Loyal, sorry we seem to disagree on this so much, but please know the disagreement is based on nothing personal whatsoever. You seem as affable as all get-out. :D Always enjoy reading your posts. Cheers.
No problem, man. My convictions about personal liberty and being forced to wear masks, has nothing to do whether POTUS wears one or not. It's a personal conviction. It's a choice whether to sacrifice liberty for safety, and the government now knows that America is willing to do that in general.

As for perfecting a vaccine, how is that common cold cure/vaccine coming along? How long did it take before coming up with real answers to AIDS, after all of the money and effort thrown at it? Is it the same medical industry that said nothing but N95 masks could stop the virus, and those only if fitted properly and then later the science must have changed when surgical masks became available? This definitely told me medical people are willing to lie to people in order to calm the herd. Now after they've lied about masks, I'm to believe a vaccine is right around the corner? ok.

No worries man, free speech is a wonderful thing.
 

Loyal

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No problems flv.... It's curious to me that medical doctors in America poo-pooed the idea that surgical masks, and especially home made ones could stop Covid particles, and it made sense that Covid particles are .1 microns and smaller, while surgical masks stop .2 microns and bigger. There was one study that said masks don't stop Covid particles that well when one sneezed hard. I do know that when it was convenient and masks became more available, somehow the science changed and surgical masks were good enough and the laughable cotton bandanna masks were all of a sudden just fine.
Just using the critical thinking noodle, when looking at this thing. No degree required.
 

XXXIVwin

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Post 1 of 3

I’m going to make a series of 3 posts today. I’m breaking it into 3 posts just so I don’t have one ‘ginormous’ post.

My goal in these posts is for me to say “goodbye” to this thread. TBH, I’m a bit envious of you guys who have said, “I don’t care whether I change your mind or not.” For me, I’ll admit it’s been just the opposite. Yes, I’ll say it out loud--—my GOAL has been to change minds. Or, at least, nudge them in a certain direction.

But what I need to do is to recognize that this is futile. It’s just a terribly painful reality that our country is so profoundly polarized that the “changing of minds” is an incredibly rare occurrence. Cognitively, I know this. But emotionally, I don’t.

This thread has had an addictive quality for me. I’ve been “chasing the dragon,” to use a term from addictive lingo. I keep just thinking that if I can be reasonable enough, articulate enough, patient enough, empathetic enough, logical enough, persuasive enough, that somehow MAYBE I can influence some people. But I just need to accept once and for all that this is impossible.

The irony of all this is that I can happily admit that I have been influenced a bit by this thread. My debate buddy @1328 will be shocked… SHOCKED…. SHOCKED!... to hear that he actually managed to change my mind a little bit. He didn’t completely change my mind, but he definitely helped to nudge me in a direction that was closer to his point of view. (In a nutshell: back in April, there were debates about “locking down for a long time” vs. “opening up to save the economy.” I don’t want to get into the details right now simply because it’s too hard to summarize. But 1328 helped to soften my stance and move me closer to the middle on that debate.)

One more disclaimer: it’s obvious from my posts that I come from the POV of a “fear-mongering commie”, as my debate buddy OC likes to say. HOWEVER… I gotta say that I record and watch Sean Hannity every single night. My point being, I do NOT restrict myself to the “MSM bubble.” I purposefully expose myself to ideas that are contradictory.
 

XXXIVwin

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POST 2 of 3

Before I quit this thread, I’d like to get a couple thoughts off my chest. Again, I’m probably just “chasing the dragon” in the hope that this can make any sort of dent in anyone’s rigidly fixed opinion. (Also, I have only a 50-50 chance of actually quitting this thread. I WANT to, because it is too painful and frustrating. But I might not have the willpower to quit).

Basically, I believe that two catastrophically poor decisions were made.

These two decisions are: 1. the lack of ENCOURAGEMENT for mask wearing and
2. The failure to follow CDC guidelines for reopening.

I’ll devote one post to each issue.

Regarding masks:

I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of whether or not we should MANDATE the wearing of masks. (This brings up all sorts of political and legal issues that are hard to untangle.) But the ENCOURAGEMNT of wearing masks? It is mind-boggling to me that EVERYONE can’t get behind this.

My whole point on the wearing of masks is that this should be a “common sense” issue and NOT a political issue. There are tons and tons of examples of people on BOTH sides of the aisle who have come out strongly for the encouragement of masks.

Do I agree with Mitch McConnell on things? Heck no. But when he said the following on the Senate floor on June 29th, I wanted to stand up and cheer:

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said Monday that wearing a mask cannot be stigmatized, calling wearing one in public part of the country's new routine amid the coronavirus pandemic.

McConnell, speaking from the Senate floor, said until there was a vaccine Americans needed to find a "middle ground" between widespread lockdowns and life pre-coronavirus.

"We need new routines, new rhythms and new strategies for this new middle ground in between. It's the task of each family, each small business, each employer and all levels of government to apply common sense and make this happen. To name just on example, we must have no stigma — none — about wearing masks when we leave our homes and come near other people," he said.

"Wearing simple face coverings is not about protecting ourselves. It is about protecting everyone we encounter," he added.


I do NOT want to engage in a politics discussion because there shouldn’t NEED to be any political debate on this. This is a “common sense” issue with plenty of consensus. Obviously just about everyone on the left is united on the encouragement of masks. But the majority of folks on the right are in favor of mask-wearing as well. Just a few examples: Steve Doocy on “Fox and Friends” recommended that MAGA should stand for “Masks are Great Again.” And even my ol’ buddy Sean Hannity (whom I watch almost every night) has consistently been in favor of masks, saying, “yeah, if I have to wear a mask in order to attend sports events, of course I’ll do that,” and “Yeah, we should all wear masks to protect Grandmas and Grandpas.”

I’m glad that the leader of our country decided to be viewed in public wearing a mask yesterday. But IMHO it was a huge mistake for him to wait this long to do so.

(Disclaimer: I totally understand the criticism of Fauci for seemingly being ‘against’ masks a few months ago. At the time, he was concerned about the shortage of PPE for front-line workers, and was worried that the general public would ‘hoard’ masks like they were doing with toilet paper, thus having fewer masks available for front-line workers. In retrospect, Fauci should have been more honest about it).

And again—I’m not talking about the mandating of mask use. I’m talking about the encouragement of mask use. I just think it’s such a shame we can’t all 100% agree on this.

In closing, I’d like to include a chart of projections on deaths between now and November 1st. Yes, I’ll concede that the projections have been highly unreliable. But I would bet there is not a single epidemiologist on the entire planet who is not in favor of widespread use of masks:

705E978A-1042-47A2-8DC3-D0E19B1DDC39.jpeg

So which do ya want on November 1st? 200 deaths per day (with universal mask wearing) or 1,300 deaths per day (continuing as we are now)?

Mask use should be encouraged by everyone. I’m sorry to put it so bluntly, but had we been more diligent about universal mask wearing FROM THE BEGINNING, we would have tens of thousands of fewer deaths by now. It’s for this reason so many of us get riled up about this topic.
 
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XXXIVwin

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The other huge mistake IMHO was the reopening of several states without following the Centers for Disease Control guidelines. Yes, people can debate endlessly about this, and say that “some” CDC guidelines were followed for reopening. But obviously not enough were.

Sometimes I truly wonder if people understand the basic principles behind the CDC guidelines. (Frankly, I myself didn’t really understand the basic principles back in March and April, but I do now.)

In the early days, our goal was to “flatten the curve.” This was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Were we largely successful at “flattening the curve”? Yes!

But once we managed to successfully “flatten the curve”, we should have adhered to the CDC’s NEW goal BEFORE reopening: “crush the curve to near baseline.” This discipline to “crush the curve to near baseline” is where the EU succeeded and the USA failed. (Again, I am NOT criticizing all the USA’s brave front-line workers. I am just heartbroken by the spectacular failure of our leadership.) There were several different recommendations, but one of the KEY guidelines was to have a full 14-day period of consecutive declining cases BEFORE re-opening. And many states chose to ignore this advice.

As every day goes by, the failure of the USA (as compared to the EU) becomes more and more shocking and disturbing. Testing in the EU is very widespread and comparable to the USA. But when it comes to assessing which region has had more success in “preventing new cases”, this graph is irrefutable:

BA85A8DF-AE5F-4207-BFF6-0638B19BCB77.jpeg

The EU has about 3,700 new cases per day, and that figure has been stable for almost 2 months. Meanwhile, in the USA, new cases have zoomed up to 40,000 per day, then 50,000, and soon 60,000, with no end in sight.

The analogy is to battling a wildfire. The whole point of is to suppress it enough so that SMALL outbreaks are containable. With small outbreaks (‘brushfires’), we are able to do contract tracing and isolation of cases. But when the outbreaks spike (‘raging fire’), we lose our ability to contain it. The most successful countries in the EU did this. And many of the worst-hit states in the USA did not.

Have fatalities caught up with the exploding new cases? No, miraculously they have not, yet. (I have read several articles about the discrepancies between fatality rates and new cases.) But in the past, the trend has been that once hospitals in major urban areas start to strain with overflow, we tend to see a disturbing spike in fatalities.

Just today, Florida absolutely shattered the record for most cases by any state in a single day, with 15,299 new cases. Most disturbingly, the test positivity rate in Florida has jumped to nearly 20% (it’s at 19.6 %).

As I write this, I realize I am running out of gas and not explaining my case for “lack of adherence to CDC Guidelines” as well as I’d like. If some other poster wants to fill in the gaps, please go right ahead.

But the bottom line is that battling a viral pandemic adheres closely to the analogy of battling a wildfire. It’s not “political”. It’s just common sense, science, and experience. There really isn’t a big mystery about what works and what doesn’t.

Again, I’m sorry to be so blunt, but many states (most notably AZ, TX, and FL) willfully ignored our own CDC Guidelines about re-opening. And now they are on the verge of paying a horrific price for it.

-------

In closing, I’m glad that we are all united in our love for the Rams. But for me personally, I just can’t handle it that there isn’t more consensus on our battle against this pandemic. On a nationwide level, so much of our debates seem like they SHOULD be about science and common sense. But somehow, we Americans have skittered away into bizarre and unnecessary politicized debates.

So guys, please continue to try your damndest to be civil while you disagree. I know sometimes it’s really hard. As for me, I am gonna TRY to avoid this thread in the future, because I frankly find it too painful to discuss.

Peace out to all, and

GO RAMS
 
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XXXIVwin

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Of course I’ll stop posting in this thread!! Bet the house!!

Yeah, I’ll probably end up retiring from this thread about as decisively as Favre retired from football. As long as ppl only say stuff I agree with, I should have no need to comment
 
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oldnotdead

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I think the believers in herd immunity should look at the very comprehensive studies coming out of Spain and other places. The reason I've been saying herd immunity is a myth is because these studies have found that the antibodies found from previously infected persons do not stay in the body more than a couple of weeks post-infection. This is why previously infected people can get the infection again and if the second time is even a slightly mutated form their outcomes are no different than someone who has never been infected. In other words, there is no such thing as herd immunity for COVID-19.
 

OC--LeftCoast

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Holy Cow, thanks for the gift Boookie man!

I hope you can appreciate I took it easy on you and couda/shoulda staked much more :ROFLMAO:
 

CeeZar

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I think the believers in herd immunity should look at the very comprehensive studies coming out of Spain and other places. The reason I've been saying herd immunity is a myth is because these studies have found that the antibodies found from previously infected persons do not stay in the body more than a couple of weeks post-infection. This is why previously infected people can get the infection again and if the second time is even a slightly mutated form their outcomes are no different than someone who has never been infected. In other words, there is no such thing as herd immunity for COVID-19.

We'll see if that holds up. If it does, that also means that there may never be an effective vaccine. I, for one, will not not be an early-adopter of any vaccine when it comes out but instead will wait and see how it goes. But I'm 54, in good shape, and don't have any of the other risk factors.
 

OldSchool

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Of course I’ll stop posting in this thread!! Bet the house!!

Yeah, I’ll probably end up retiring from this thread about as decisively as Favre retired from football. As long as ppl only say stuff I agree with, I should have no need to comment
Honest question here and I think the answer and the whole train of thought is quite sad. But how can you expect people in this country to have an honest and thoughtful debate anymore? Most people would rather assign hateful adjectives to somebody than open up their minds to have a discushion. Most people will look at a headline and grab one stat from it and run with that when a further dig into the numbers will show you a vastly different story than the big money headline, sensationalism sells and people refuse outside thought. We’re truly in a sad state in this country. Best of luck to you and apologies if I helped drag you back in here even if it was just for a minute. Everybody knows I rarely participate in this thread.
 
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