Cooper Kupp vs Josh Reynolds

[jrry32]

Gee. Best I can tell, I may be one of a few who is looking at both sides of the coin. I can see positives and negatives while some only seem to see positives.

Yea, you aren't. You readily acknowledge that you can teach athletes how to overcome their skill limitations, but you don't seem willing to acknowledge that you can teach technicians how to overcome their athletic limitations. Instead, it's QB play, scheme, team, etc. that are the reasons why they "seemingly" overcome it.

That's fine if you choose to believe that. You won't be alone. But that'll leave you in the position of either having to refuse to give credit to those sort of guys for what they accomplish (by giving others the credit) or coming up with reasons why they actually were more athletic than we thought. Again, that's common, so you're hardly alone there.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Yea, you aren't. You readily acknowledge that you can teach athletes how to overcome their skill limitations, but you don't seem willing to acknowledge that you can teach technicians how to overcome their athletic limitations. Instead, it's QB play, scheme, team, etc. that are the reasons why they "seemingly" overcome it.

That's fine if you choose to believe that. You won't be alone. But that'll leave you in the position of either having to refuse to give credit to those sort of guys for what they accomplish (by giving others the credit) or coming up with reasons why they actually were more athletic than we thought. Again, that's common, so you're hardly alone there.

Didn't think we were on the same page. You mentioned characteristics of a couple different types of guys hitting a strong stat line and my response was, " He might (Which is an acknowledgement) But, we both know that his circumstances (team, scheme, QB) is HUGE there." The point I was making was that stat line presented (or any) is extremely reliant upon the above listed circumstances. And that's no matter whom the player.

BTW, let me also add opportunity to the list. Anyway, I learned playing fantasy football that Antonio Brown was a helluva lot more projective when Roethlisberger was a QB than he was with Steelers backups. And he was no better or worse a WR.

 

[jrry32]

Didn't think we were on the same page. You mentioned characteristics of a couple different types of guys hitting a strong stat line and my response was, " He might (Which is an acknowledgement) But, we both know that his circumstances (team, scheme, QB) is HUGE there." The point I was making was that stat line presented (or any) is extremely reliant upon the above listed circumstances. And that's no matter whom the player.

BTW, let me also add opportunity to the list. Anyway, I learned playing fantasy football that Antonio Brown was a helluva lot more projective when Roethlisberger was a QB than he was with Steelers backups. And he was no better or worse a WR.

That's not the point, though. The point was that Welker was still extremely effective when he played outside the slot. The production was only illustrative of that. We both agree that team, scheme, QB, etc. all have a major effect on production. The difference is that people pin a guy like Welker's production on those factors rather than his ability. On the flip side, nobody says that about a guy who is considered to be a "true #1 WR." That's where I don't think people are looking at both sides of the coin. It seems like you're in that group. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's a bit unfair to point to those factors for a guy like Welker when you don't qualify others with the same sort of thing.

Yes, Antonio Brown is far more effective with Big Ben than Landry Jones and Mike Vick. That's also true of almost every WR who has played over the last three or so decades.(look at DeAndre Hopkins and Allen Robinson in 2015 vs. 2016) The position is reliant on QB play. Jerry Rice is the only WR I know of who is just as productive with backups, but I haven't run the numbers for most WRs, so there might be others.

Obviously, a guy like Randy Moss or Josh Gordon or Terrell Owens or Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson will be less affected by a QB change than a guy like Marvin Harrison or Antonio Brown or Isaac Bruce because the first group have a greater margin for error in how they produce. That all said, I'm not drafting a WR for how he'll play with my backup QB.

Getting back to Cooper Kupp, my issue is that I think you're too quick to impose limitations on guys due to perceived physical shortcomings. That's the issue I have. You don't seem to impose the same limitations on athletes lacking skill because you believe they can improve. My point is that technicians also can improve, and you quickly find that their physical limitations aren't very meaningful once they step onto the field. Which gets to my final point about people choosing either to credit everybody else for that player's success to refuse admitting that those physical limitations weren't meaningful, or they rationalize that player's athleticism.("Oh, he only runs a 4.6ish 40, but he has elite quickness, so he's actually a great athlete")

Memphis, I'm aware of Kupp's shortcomings. We might disagree to a slight extent over certain things, but I'm not of the belief that he's perfect. At the same time, I also recognize that his shortcomings are the sort of things that are often overcome by his strengths (technical skill, football IQ, instincts, work ethic, and enough athleticism in the right areas)

Frankly, I'd rather have an extraordinarily quick guy who has bad straight-line speed than an extraordinarily fast guy with bad change of direction skills/quickness.

EDIT: One last small point for me to make here. You talked about Cris Carter as a guy who developed the intangibles to succeed. What strikes me as interesting about that comparison is that Cris Carter was a 6'3" 208 pound WR who ran a 4.63 40 coming out of college. He was known for his route running and incredible hands. Kupp is 6'2" 205 and ran a 4.62 40 coming out of college. Kupp is also known for his route running and incredible hands. Just saying that it's a true coincidence that you chose Cris Carter for your athletic WR who figured things out in the NFL.

 

[Memphis Ram]

@jrry32
So basically, we had two different points. That's all. But, back to Welker. No. I don't discredit his physical abilities at all. The kid was as quick as a cat. It was his rare quickness (which somehow seems to be completely ignored given the 40 time focus) that also helped him a great deal to have success. See. A physical trait. Not only the previously mentioned intelligence, work ethic, or instincts. And despite all of that, as previously agreed upon, those numbers (even at roughly just 11 ypc) don't come minus his circumstances.

Back to Kupp. You've got me wrong there, too. I understand that technicians can improve. It's just my opinion that there is a lower ceiling there and having a special physical trait increases a players chances of success. A superior technician at college WR with some physical abilities is always going to look superior to a college defender lacking technique. But, in the NFL, the defenders have better technique. Plus, they have better size and better speed, which can allow them to make up for some technique shortcomings.

Besides, my opinion on Kupp isn't solely based upon his physical abilities. I saw how he was used mostly in the slot in that college spread offense. And I've heard Larry Fitzgerald explain how it's much easier to get open from the slot position than it is playing outside as you have more room to operate (and you see far less press coverage). And don't believe his college team did not know that. Plus, I even read the pre-draft piece as how he wasn't nearly as successful when used outside even though most of his competition made him look like a grown man playing vs. boys.

I also watched and read about Kupp's performances in those Senior Bowl practices. Yes. It was a step up in competition. But, I couldn't also help but to notice that one could argue that the best CB he faced in those practices was Iowa's Desmond King, a player being talked about having to move to safety entering the league.

As for Chris Carter, I'd argue that he was not only taller, had much better hops, and was more explosive (younger verson). One could argue that he may have been stronger, too. Athleticism is not just a 40 time. Plus, I'd question if the size and speed of most of today's CBs are the same as they were almost two decades ago. That said, if Kupp has anything close to Carter's hands, I'll be thrilled.

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32
So basically, we had two different points. That's all. But, back to Welker. No. I don't discredit his physical abilities at all. The kid was as quick as a cat. It was his rare quickness (which somehow seems to be completely ignored given the 40 time focus) that also helped him a great deal to have success. See. A physical trait. Not only the previously mentioned intelligence, work ethic, or instincts. And despite all of that, as previously agreed upon, those numbers (even at roughly just 11 ypc) don't come minus his circumstances.

And this is what I mean by the rationalization point. If Kupp becomes a highly productive WR, this will be exactly what is said about him.

As for Welker's numbers, he had 111 catches for 1165 yards the year Matt Cassel started.

Back to Kupp. You've got me wrong there, too. I understand that technicians can improve. It's just my opinion that there is a lower ceiling there and having a special physical trait increases a players chances of success. A superior technician at college WR with some physical abilities is always going to look superior to a college defender lacking technique. But, in the NFL, the defenders have better technique. Plus, they have better size and better speed, which can allow them to make up for some technique shortcomings.

Yet, people will revise their opinions using hindsight on physical traits when a guy pans out.

Besides, my opinion on Kupp isn't solely based upon his physical abilities. I saw how he was used mostly in the slot in that college spread offense. And I've heard Larry Fitzgerald explain how it's much easier to get open from the slot position than it is playing outside as you have more room to operate (and you see far less press coverage). And don't believe his college team did not know that. Plus, I even read the pre-draft piece as how he wasn't nearly as successful when used outside even though most of his competition made him look like a grown man playing vs. boys.

PFF claims his yards per route run outside was higher than it was inside the slot, which is very believable based on film. He might have had a higher success rate per slot route run, but the majority of his down the field receptions seem to come outside.

I also watched and read about Kupp's performances in those Senior Bowl practices. Yes. It was a step up in competition. But, I couldn't also help but to notice that one could argue that the best CB he faced in those practices was Iowa's Desmond King, a player being talked about having to move to safety entering the league.

Desmond King
Jourdan Lewis
Brendan Langley
Rasul Douglas
Obi Melifonwu
John Johnson

Those were the guys who saw time at CB from my recollection. I don't recall if Kupp faced Melifonwu or Johnson (he probably did). I know for a fact that he beat each of the four CBs. King was the last of the four CBs drafted. And I doubt anyone would argue that King is a better CB than Jourdan Lewis. In fact, Kupp said Lewis was the toughest CB he faced.

Regardless of how you want to spin the Senior Bowl, that was the closest thing to NFL competition that he'll play until he plays on Sundays. He passed the test with flying colors.

As for Chris Carter, I'd argue that he was not only taller, had much better hops, and was more explosive (younger verson). One could argue that he may have been stronger, too. Athleticism is not just a 40 time. Plus, I'd question if the size and speed of most of today's CBs are the same as they were almost two decades ago. That said, if Kupp has anything close to Carter's hands, I'll be thrilled.

What you're saying is that WRs lacking in straight-line speed can use other attributes to compensate. That's been my point for the last few months on Kupp.

 

[Memphis Ram]

And this is what I mean by the rationalization point. If Kupp becomes a highly productive WR, this will be exactly what is said about him.

As for Welker's numbers, he had 111 catches for 1165 yards the year Matt Cassel started.

But why should anyone really care about what is said about him if he is productive?
Besides, none of these guys are in a vacuum as to their NFL production.

BTW, while Welker had a great season, didn't Randy Moss line up on the other side that year? Who do you think got the most of the attention from opposing defenses when he was averaging those 10.5 ypc? And don't you think Cassell's familiarity and the lack of other legit options besides those two (and Faulk), helped him get so many opportunities (149 targets), too.

PFF claims his yards per route run outside was higher than it was inside the slot, which is very believable based on film. He might have had a higher success rate per slot route run, but the majority of his down the field receptions seem to come outside.

Perhaps, I'm mistaken, but shouldn't that be true for most WRs? My point was in regards to his success outside vs. in the slot.

Desmond King
Jourdan Lewis
Brendan Langley
Rasul Douglas
Obi Melifonwu
John Johnson

Those were the guys who saw time at CB from my recollection. I don't recall if Kupp faced Melifonwu or Johnson (he probably did). I know for a fact that he beat each of the four CBs. King was the last of the four CBs drafted. And I doubt anyone would argue that King is a better CB than Jourdan Lewis. In fact, Kupp said Lewis was the toughest CB he faced.

Regardless of how you want to spin the Senior Bowl, that was the closest thing to NFL competition that he'll play until he plays on Sundays. He passed the test with flying colors.

The way they made it sound, King made it known that he didn't want to move to safety. Perhaps, that affected his draft positioning. Either way, if Lewis was viewed as the best, how did Kupp perform against him? And in press coverage? See that's a lesson I was taught awhile back. A kid can totally dominate the majority of a group of players and not be nearly as dominant vs. one guy and the later is totally disregarded once the hype train gets rolling.

What you're saying is that WRs lacking in straight-line speed can use other attributes to compensate. That's been my point for the last few months on Kupp.

Yes. But, I'm also pointing out the importance of other physical attributes as being key along with the earlier mentioned mental, heart, work ethic type attributes.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I'm still waiting for last years WR crop to produce... :deadhorse:

I hope they get a legit chance.

 

[jrry32]

But why should anyone really care about what is said about him if he is productive?
Besides, none of these guys are in a vacuum as to their NFL production.

I doubt he does. You're right; none of these guys are in a vacuum. Yet, when you say Julio Jones produced 1400+ yards, nobody says "but Matt Ryan and Kyle Shanahan" or "but Roddy White."

BTW, while Welker had a great season, didn't Randy Moss line up on the other side that year? Who do you think got the most of the attention from opposing defenses when he was averaging those 10.5 ypc? And don't you think Cassell's familiarity and the lack of other legit options besides those two (and Faulk), helped him get so many opportunities (149 targets), too.

I think getting open consistently helped him get so many targets. He caught 74.5% of his targets.

Perhaps, I'm mistaken, but shouldn't that be true for most WRs? My point was in regards to his success outside vs. in the slot.

My point is that success can be defined in different ways. The slot will result in a higher success rate per route run but lower yards per route run because of the difference in depth of targets. Kupp was obviously successful enough on the outside that the deeper depth per target resulted in a higher yards per route run.

The way they made it sound, King made it known that he didn't want to move to safety. Perhaps, that affected his draft positioning. Either way, if Lewis was viewed as the best, how did Kupp perform against him? And in press coverage? See that's a lesson I was taught awhile back. A kid can totally dominate the majority of a group of players and not be nearly as dominant vs. one guy and the later is totally disregarded once the hype train gets rolling.

Lewis won some battles. Kupp won some battles. One example of Kupp vs. Lewis in press coverage:


And I still contend that Dallas got a steal in Lewis. He'll be a quality starting CB in the NFL. He has tremendous technical skill, instincts, foot quickness, and change of direction ability. Lewis is sticky in coverage. Kupp got clear separation at times, won reps while blanketed at times, and lost reps when Lewis made a play on the ball at times. That's what will happen against a quality CB.

I actually feel quite good about Kupp against press coverage. He'll make teams pay if they think pressing him is how they stop him.

Yes. But, I'm also pointing out the importance of other physical attributes as being key along with the earlier mentioned mental, heart, work ethic type attributes.

They are important. Kupp's physical strengths are the right ones to produce with his skill-set (quickness, change of direction ability, flexibility, body control, and balance). The thing is that people tend to define physical attributes by speed, size, and hops. That's what I'm trying to push back against.

 

[Rams43]

One thing I noticed in the highlight vids of both Everett and Kupp.

Even when they're not "open", they're open.

At times, that seems true of Reynolds, as well.

Their respective QB's trusted them and took full advantage.

That bodes VERY well for Goff this year, don't you think?

 

[LACHAMP46]

I know it's early in this process, but seems to me we had a terrible problem with lack of decent WR's/pass catchers

Hmmmm....we only got rid of our best, Britt....and our 2nd best Quick. I'd say those two were at least, decent. but I'm biased....I tip over golf carts on a regular too....
But we've hopefully replaced them with better players...and the ones that are left can step up with better coaching

Reynolds is the closet thing on the roster to fitting that mold

Exactly....hope he can step up...we'll need him. We also have Marquez North, 6'3, 220 lbs....oh yeah, 4.4 speed. Paul McRoberts probably has a shot at sticking too...6'4 not sure what he runs or how much he weighs...So those 3....plus the TE's....

 

[Riverumbbq]

Paul McRoberts probably has a shot at sticking too...6'4 not sure what he runs or how much he weighs.

Average speed, best 40 time was recorded at 4.6. Not known for great separation, but good red-zone player.
Looks like a practice squad candidate to me. jmo.

 

[Florida_Ram]

Hmmmm....we only got rid of our best, Britt....and our 2nd best Quick. I'd say those two were at least, decent. but I'm biased....I tip over golf carts on a regular too....
But we've hopefully replaced them with better players....

Yes sir, @LACHAMP46 we got rid of our best WR's under the Fisher era and I would happily bet you 5 steak dinners and 10 bottles of your favorite beverage that Robert Woods and Cooper Kupp finish with better overall combined stats in 2017 than Britt & Quick gave us in 2016.

Kenny Britt Catches 68 Yards 1,002 YPC 14.7 TD 5
Brian Quick Catches 41 Yards 564 YPC 13.8 TD 3

Save this post my friend because I know you will ......



ROBERT WOODS

COOPER KUPP

 

[LACHAMP46]

Save this post my friend because I know you will ......

I will...looks like....109 catches total....about 1,566 yards....and 8 TD's should do it....LOLOLOLOL

and for comparisons sake...I'll keep an eye on those two at Cleveland and Washington....

 

[Riverumbbq]

Yes sir, @LACHAMP46 we got rid of our best WR's under the Fisher era and I would happily bet you 5 steak dinners and 10 bottles of your favorite beverage that Robert Woods and Cooper Kupp finish with better overall combined stats in 2017 than Britt & Quick gave us in 2016.

Kenny Britt Catches 68 Yards 1,002 YPC 14.7 TD 5
Brian Quick Catches 41 Yards 564 YPC 13.8 TD 3

Save this post my friend because I know you will ......



ROBERT WOODS

COOPER KUPP

Oh now, this looks like an interesting bet. What's the over/under @flv ?

 

[Florida_Ram]

Oh now, this looks like an interesting bet. What's the over/under @[B][SIZE=5][COLOR=#b300b3]flv[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] ?

Excellent over/under question @Riverumbbq! Because these WR's are no longer with the Rams and have essentially been replaced by Woods & Kupp, this would be a very popular ROD betting prop for @flv to add in the Sportsbook.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I'll defer to @Florida_Ram & @LACHAMP46 on this one as they are in the center of this bet, but i'll no doubt participate once the bet is secured.

 

[Florida_Ram]

Yes @flv..

Kupp and Woods combined 2017 stats have to exceed 109 catches, 1566 yards, and 8 TDs. That is what Britt and Quick got combined for in 2016. Lets get this in the Sportsbook

I have a strong feeling this prop bet will be very active in the sportsbook the closer the season gets.

 

[OldSchool]

I'd take Woods and Kupp over their production this year no worries