Cooper Kupp vs Josh Reynolds

[jrry32]

Here's the question: last year, it looked like Tavon spent more time in the slot to me in three receiver sets with Quick and Britt on the outside (at least when lined three wide to one side of the formation). For a time I think maybe Marquez played some slot when we kept Tavon out wide in three receiver sets. Oh wait, there's a question!

If Kupp shows superior skills from the slot... what do you do in three receiver sets? Do you keep Tavon out wide? And if Kupp is above average, how do you remove him from any 3+ WR formation for Reynolds?

I'm just not sure there will be enough snaps this year in camp or in the season to really find out what we have in Reynolds for at least another year unless Kupp just blows.

If Reynolds is good and not a complete waste, I think the best we see from him this year is some targets on the outside in 4 WR sets.

In that scenario, you put Kupp in the slot, Tavon at flanker, and Woods at split end. However, I think it'll be more fluid. I think we'll see Kupp, Tavon, and Woods all working at all three WR positions.

As for Reynolds, if he's ready to play, he'll compete for a job. If he doesn't earn the starting job, I'm sure he can give those guys breathers.

 

[ReddingRam]

this damn thing with the 40 times and all. Really bugs me. Why on earth doesn't the NFL just let guys start from the normal stance at their positions, if they REALLY want to see how it will translate to their game? Trying to get these guys to start like they are "in the blocks" is ridiculous. And the edge will always go to the guys who have a little track background. they use electronic time for the "officials" anyways, so why make these guys go through the unwarranted steps of coming out of the blocks? The damn time starts and stops when the beams are broken.

 

[1maGoh]

At the same time, most understand that it's possible that a player with athleticism can be taught technical skill. But, the technical skill guy can't be taught athleticism.

Very true, in theory. If a guy has made it through college without the desire (or mental ability) to gain the technical skill, it's a pretty big what if to say they will gain it now because reasons.

 

[ausmurp]

In reality, it's highly unlikely both of these players see real starting action on the field, or become elite WRs. So I'm going with Kupp here, bc he should see the field much sooner than Reynolds, and once he starts to contribute he probably will remain in the starting lineup. Which means based on drafted player success rate...Reynolds probably won't be on the team in 4 yrs. Lol.

 

[Loyal]

In reality, it's highly unlikely both of these players see real starting action on the field, or become elite WRs. So I'm going with Kupp here, bc he should see the field much sooner than Reynolds, and once he starts to contribute he probably will remain in the starting lineup. Which means based on drafted player success rate...Reynolds probably won't be on the team in 4 yrs. Lol.

You are depressing even me.
~Grim Reaper

 

[A.J. Hicks]

Cooper Kupp. Everyone around here is arguing, Oh his 40 time, oh Jerry Rice, Oh this, Oh that.

One thing I know Coach has said is "I love his above the neck approach"

 

[A.J. Hicks]

Josh Reynolds is another guy I am very excited to add to our team.

I'm drinking Mcvay brand this offseason

 

[EasyE]

Very true, in theory. If a guy has made it through college without the desire (or mental ability) to gain the technical skill, it's a pretty big what if to say they will gain it now because reasons.

Same deal with RB's....the slow backs learn to run inside and cut back better because they cant rely on speed to the edge every time....if they dont, they dont stay running backs...speed backs (Pead) never practice this skill in college and may not learn it when pro...fall back on bad habits....

 

[jrry32]

At the same time, most understand that it's possible that a player with athleticism can be taught technical skill. But, the technical skill guy can't be taught athleticism.

At the same time, you can't teach intelligence, work ethic, or instincts.

That's how a 5'9" WR with a 4.65 40 and a 30 inch vertical can post 100+ catches per year while a 6'4" WR with a 4.28 40 and a 39.5 inch vertical only lasts a few years in the NFL.

At the end of the day, even if you teach the athlete technical skill, the technical skill guy might still outproduce him.

 

[EasyE]

At the same time, you can't teach intelligence, work ethic, or instincts.

That's how a 5'9" WR with a 4.65 40 and a 30 inch vertical can post 100+ catches per year while a 6'4" WR with a 4.28 40 and a 39.5 inch vertical only lasts a few years in the NFL.

At the end of the day, even if you teach the athlete technical skill, the technical skill guy might still outproduce him.

It is such an art and science to choosing players...it would seem so easy....but players have minds, moods and bodies...any of which can change on a dime...then add pressures of life and family and injuries...must be mentally tough....

 

[Memphis Ram]

Very true, in theory. If a guy has made it through college without the desire (or mental ability) to gain the technical skill, it's a pretty big what if to say they will gain it now because reasons.

Not necessarily. Some kids are limited by their offense and access to inferior coaching / mentoring on his team, etc.. And few may actually focus a bit on their studies & family obligations. (I knew a kid who had a full football scholarship, but still worked on the side to send money home to his family when some might say he should have been working on his craft).

But, once football becomes a full time job, better coaching is accessed, then boom. Lets be real. Most of these kids coming out of college aren't technically skilled entering the league.

 

[Memphis Ram]

At the same time, you can't teach intelligence, work ethic, or instincts.

That's how a 5'9" WR with a 4.65 40 and a 30 inch vertical can post 100+ catches per year while a 6'4" WR with a 4.28 40 and a 39.5 inch vertical only lasts a few years in the NFL.

At the end of the day, even if you teach the athlete technical skill, the technical skill guy might still outproduce him.

He might. But, we both know that his circumstances (team, scheme, QB) is HUGE there.

BTW, I don't know how intelligent Pharoh Cooper is, but his work ethic and instincts seem to be outstanding from what I've read. Maybe, this 5'11", 4.60/40 kid with the 30 1/2 VJ will prove that the team didn't need to spend that high 3rd rounder on Kupp after all. If given the chance, anyway. Who knows?

 

[1maGoh]

Not necessarily. Some kids are limited by their offense and access to inferior coaching / mentoring on his team. And few may actually focus a bit on their studies & family obligations.

But, once football becomes a full time job, better coaching is access, then boom. Lets be real. Most of these kids coming out of college aren't technically skilled entering the league.

Your right. Most kids aren't technically skilled coming out of college. That's what makes it valuable. If someone comes out with advanced skills then he's already ahead of his whole draft class, almost definitely second year players, and possibly third year or better players (especially if this players are super athletes who haven't really focused on making the technical skill).

What you said was literally my point. Most of the guys don't learn, for whatever reason, the technical skills. All of them are athletes who train daily or close to it to be able to carry out the actions required for their position. Only a few bother to study the technical skill to become superior. The guys who let other stuff get in the way obviously don't want the NFL as much as they want a balanced life. Which sounds cold and heartless, but... Yeah, I don't have a follow up. It's just heartless, but give me the guy who doesn't care about his family as much as he cares about making it in the NFL

 

[jrry32]

He might. But, we both know that his circumstances (team, scheme, QB) is HUGE there.

Those things make a difference for every WR. Would it be better for me to use the 5'10" WR with a 4.57 40 and a 8'09" broad jump?

BTW, I don't know how intelligent Pharoh Cooper is, but his work ethic and instincts seem to be outstanding from what I've read. Maybe, this 5'11", 4.60/40 kid with the 30 1/2 VJ will prove that the team didn't need to spend that high 3rd rounder on Kupp after all. If given the chance, anyway.

I've always chuckled at people acting as if a guy who is highly productive in the slot can't be highly productive outside. The Patriots had Aaron Hernandez take the slot role in 2011 and had Wes Welker often operate as their flanker. Welker still put up 1500+ yards.

If Pharoh Cooper proves to be a great slot WR, that's better for us. We're not going to be hurting because Cooper Kupp and Pharoh Cooper are both great slot WRs. If Kupp and Cooper both prove to be 1000+ yard slot WRs, they'll produce outside. If they can't, that's the fault of our offensive staff.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Your right. Most kids aren't technically skilled coming out of college. That's what makes it valuable. If someone comes out with advanced skills then he's already ahead of his whole draft class, almost definitely second year players, and possibly third year or better players (especially if this players are super athletes who haven't really focused on making the technical skill).

What you said was literally my point. Most of the guys don't learn, for whatever reason, the technical skills. All of them are athletes who train daily or close to it to be able to carry out the actions required for their position. Only a few bother to study the technical skill to become superior. The guys who let other stuff get in the way obviously don't want the NFL as much as they want a balanced life. Which sounds cold and heartless, but... Yeah, I don't have a follow up. It's just heartless, but give me the guy who doesn't care about his family as much as he cares about making it in the NFL

Yep. It does sound heartless, but from the NFL team perspective I understand. I even understand that given the shortened practice time via the most recent CBA, the more advanced kid is ready to step in and contribute sooner.

Still even the most advanced WR in the world technically is still limited by his athletic/physical attributes. He might have a higher floor, but his ceiling is going to be lower than the player who is more advanced physically & athletically but perhaps just above average technically, IMO.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Those things make a difference for every WR. Would it be better for me to use the 5'10" WR with a 4.57 40 and a 8'09" broad jump?

Makes no difference regarding the point being made.

I've always chuckled at people acting as if a guy who is highly productive in the slot can't be highly productive outside. The Patriots had Aaron Hernandez take the slot role in 2011 and had Wes Welker often operate as their flanker. Welker still put up 1500+ yards.

Any chance the attention guys like TEs Hernandez, Gronkowski, and this past year Bennett received from defenses, along with having a QB like Tom Brady played a role in the success of players like Welker and now Edleman being highly productive on the outside?

If Pharoh Cooper proves to be a great slot WR, that's better for us. We're not going to be hurting because Cooper Kupp and Pharoh Cooper are both great slot WRs. If Kupp and Cooper both prove to be 1000+ yard slot WRs, they'll produce outside. If they can't, that's the fault of our offensive staff.

Sure, it wouldn't hurt if both turn out to be great slot WRs. And sure there will be some production outside. Hell, even Amendola made some plays from outside from time to time. But, it sure would be nice and better for the team to have a WR capable of making plays outside consistently without relying upon scheming.

 

[jrry32]

Makes no difference regarding the point being made.

That scheme, team, and QB matter? Yes, it matters for every WR.

Any chance the attention guys like TEs Hernandez, Gronkowski, and this past year Bennett received from defenses, along with having a QB like Tom Brady played a role in the success of players like Welker and now Edleman being highly productive on the outside?

Any chance that supporting cast matters? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that Welker and Edelman are getting open.

Sure, it wouldn't hurt if both turn out to be great slot WRs. And sure there will be some production outside. Hell, even Amendola made some plays from outside from time to time. But, it sure would be nice and better for the team to have a WR capable of making plays outside consistently without relying upon scheming.

There won't be "some" production outside. If both turn out to be great slot WRs, they'll produce outside. The skills that lead to production in the slot translate outside if you have a halfway competent offensive play-caller.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Those things make a difference for every WR. Would it be better for me to use the 5'10" WR with a 4.57 40 and a 8'09" broad jump?



I've always chuckled at people acting as if a guy who is highly productive in the slot can't be highly productive outside. The Patriots had Aaron Hernandez take the slot role in 2011 and had Wes Welker often operate as their flanker. Welker still put up 1500+ yards.

If Pharoh Cooper proves to be a great slot WR, that's better for us. We're not going to be hurting because Cooper Kupp and Pharoh Cooper are both great slot WRs. If Kupp and Cooper both prove to be 1000+ yard slot WRs, they'll produce outside. If they can't, that's the fault of our offensive staff.

i've never understood why people say kupp can't play on the outside. his routes are outstanding. he sets up cbs easily. those two things are a million times more important than speed. givens and avery had speed but every cb hung with them easily because their routes were easy to cover. kupp will be a nightmare for cbs. there's no better wr than antonio brown and i wouldn't call him fast.

.

 

[StealYoGurley]

As a play caller one of McVays strengths is using formations to put his players in the best position to succeed. Using bunch, trips, and deuce formations he was able to put multiple people in the slot. Crowder and Reed played extensively in the slot, with Desean mixed in, and to a lesser extent Garcon. He moved his WRs around, but they had defined roles that fit the basketball team mantra Snead talked about all offseason. 75% of Crowder's targets came as a slot receiver, 76% of DeSean's targets came on the outside primarily as a flanker, and 87% of Garcon's targets came on the outside primarily as a split end.

Where the rams weapons differ is they don't have an established player best suited to play extensively as an X receiver or isolated to one side of the formation like Garcon and Jordan Reed. Can the coaches get Everett up to speed so he can do that as a rookie? Rookie TE transitions are tough, but he wont be asked to do alot of the really tough things like blocking NFL DEs as much as a typical TE would, so there is a chance. IMO you are not playing to Kupp's or Woods' strengths playing them extensively as an X receiver or isolating them to one side of the formation. They are both likely to be most successful playing flanker or in the slot. However, Tavon complicates things because his best position in this offense is probably flanker because he doesn't have the route running ability or acumen to play primarily as slot receiver. Tavon also doesn't have the strength or the ability to consistently get off press as an X receiver.

So the dilemma becomes the top 3 projected receivers (Woods, Tavon, Kupp) are best suited to play flanker/slot and we don't know if best fits at X and iso receiver (Everett, Reynolds, maybe Thomas) will be ready. Ideally one if not both of Reynolds and Everett can step up quickly. If that doesn't happen Woods will probably lead the WR group in snaps at X/iso with Kupp in the slot and Tavon at flanker. As Everett and Reynolds progress you can play Woods more at flanker and slot and use Tavon's skillset more efficiently like a Taylor Gabriel.

 

[RamsSince1969]

Hey Admin, would it be possible to start a separate section we could call "Have A Plate Of Crow?"
First hall of fame potential loser at the dinner table would be that jackass that wrote Kupp was the worst pick in the entire draft. Wow!