Brian Schottenheimer Is Not the Problem

[jrry32]

IMO, the Rams do a better job of stopping their rushing attack than opposing defenses.

Nice first down run. Pass. Pass. Punt.

And yet when I see us try the opposite, we end up in 3rd and 8.

We actually run that same power play with the back-side cut a lot and when it works, we typically will run it again or flip it...and that usually results in it getting completely shutdown.

We simply don't have the dominance on the OL to impose our will nor do we have the consistency for the same play to continue to be successful.

As I said, my only complaint is the lack of outside running when it seems to be what we're best at. But inside running? When we do try to follow up successful runs with more running plays to the inside, it typically backfires. At least, that's how it has seemed to me. Would be interesting to see if that could be verified.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Usually because teams can load up on stopping the run and dare the Rams to beat them through the air. While too much variety can be a bad thing (and that doesn't mesh at all with the claim that Schotty lacks innovation), it can also be a good thing in moderation when you're keeping defenses guessing.

True. Teams can. But, why stop yourself before they even do it? Besides, I really can't help but believe that this team would stand a better chance at being able to run the football, even if teams load up on stopping the run, if there were more of a focus on the running game. And that's even with the current group at Oline. Sure, upgrades are needed, but that can be said for just about every OLine in the NFL. Why do the Rams seem to need to have All-Pros at every position to have success? And why can't the Rams immediately stick a rookie or other non-established player out there and have success? Other teams do it.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

How are we supposed to implement the "This is what we're running. Stop it" philosophy with the interior O-line that everyone laments?

Can't say I blame MR's reply the question, tho I was a little shocked he tossed in a Auburn reference

I'm just wondering with a sore shoulder Saffold, a brainy but very inadequate run blocking Scott Wells and... need I even try to describe Josephalm: how anyone could maintain a consistent running game with that interior line.

There comes a time when you just need the right tools to get the job done.

 

[Memphis Ram]

And yet when I see us try the opposite, we end up in 3rd and 8.

We actually run that same power play with the back-side cut a lot and when it works, we typically will run it again or flip it...and that usually results in it getting completely shutdown.

We simply don't have the dominance on the OL to impose our will nor do we have the consistency for the same play to continue to be successful.

As I said, my only complaint is the lack of outside running when it seems to be what we're best at. But inside running? When we do try to follow up successful runs with more running plays to the inside, it typically backfires. At least, that's how it has seemed to me. Would be interesting to see if that could be verified.

Then run another play. Perhaps, to the outside like many, including yourself, has already suggested. Don't abandon the run altogether and get pass happy. And don't completely abandon a play that gets stopped every now and then. That's going to happen.

 

[MrMotes]

The 2008 Jets offense with a healthy Favre was a FAR better unit than the 2014 Eagles offense. So if you started this argument with the intent of proving the opposite...you haven't succeeded. What you've managed to prove is that the 2008 Jets were putting up just as many points with a healthy Favre as the Eagles are...without screwing their defense over to inflate their offensive stats.

You can spin, cherry pick which games you think should count, extrapolate about things that never happened but the fact remains: Chip Kelly is scoring as many points and winning as many games with Nick Foles and Mark Sanchez as the Jets did with Brett Favre.

Brett Favre played the last 5 games hurt. Chip Kelly lost his starting QB halfway through. Nobody needs to make excuses or extrapolate the data because the Eagles didn't collapse when Foles went down. They're still producing at a pretty high level.

And the point, in case we've lost track, is i don't think BS ever gets the most out of his players. His offenses don't add up to more than the sum of their parts. Comparing him to Chip Kelly is for me a way of illustrating that fact.

 

[LACHAMP46]

great effin thread here gents!!!! Congrats to the major participants....couple of thoughts....
Schotty has done well with less talent...at key positions. Chip Kelly is loaded...Philly is loaded at the line...Philly has had top skill position players on offense for at least 2 years. A QB like Sanchez has improved. He is NOT the same QB that Schotty inherited...Not even close, and he still is limited. Foles is Foles, that is, his 2013 was clearly an exaggeration of his talent. Vick did more for Foles' game than Chip ever could. Teams were prepared for Vick, Foles took them by storm with accuracy, and a stout running game wrapped in the no-huddle offense..Genius, maybe, but more like the perfect storm of circumstances....with the surprise effect. If Philly makes the playoffs next year, I'll change my tune, but right now, Chip Kelly inherited Andy Reid's playoff caliber team...He's in the same boat as Harbaugh, Gruden (Tampa Bay), Trestman, and the guy who took over the San Diego team after Marty Schottenheimer. Basically coaches who were given the keys to playoff caliber teams in terms of talent. And had a very short run of success.
The side issue of @jrry32 & @Alan was even more interesting...Seems like it's own thread/issue....Great defenses don't give up huge yards...Points can be manufactured in low-yardage situations by field position & turnovers...That is, you may not give up many yards on a short field for reasons like this...Giving up yards is keeping the defense on the field too long, allows for more mistakes (penalties or negative plays) and just puts the team in a bad circumstance by being on the field too long. I'd take a team that gives up the least yards, because I feel with adjustments this can be corrected. Large yards allowed numbers screams internal problems that may be impossible to fix. It is interesting that the #1 defensive team (Seahawks) is the lowest in yards & points allowed.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Higher completion%, higher ypa, higher TD% and higher passer rating than Foles. Doesn't seem fair to say "Sanchez" isn't getting it done.

Compared to his days in NY? Sanchez is playing MUCH better. I agree that the sample size is too small to draw any conclusions, but at this point, I'd say Kelly's getting more out of him. A big part of the reason is how he's being used. The Eagles aren't trying to hide Sanchez in the offense, they're putting the game on his shoulders and he's playing the best he's ever played.

Sure, the Eagles have had struggles but their losses shouldn't fall on Sanchez IMO. He's playing better than Foles was this year and he's playing much better than he was in NY.

Sanchez's second year seems compareable to how he's performing...And again, he is not the same player as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year QB....he's not.

Chip Kelly is scoring as many points and winning as many games with Nick Foles and Mark Sanchez as the Jets did with Brett Favre.

Ummm, not really. Farve went to the NFC Championship game, and were it not for some strange circumstances, would have been in a Super Bowl.

 

[MrMotes]

Sanchez's second year seems compareable to how he's performing...And again, he is not the same player as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year QB....he's not.

Ummm, not really. Farve went to the NFC Championship game, and were it not for some strange circumstances, would have been in a Super Bowl.

I know we've been over this ad nauseum by now but Sanchez had 3 years in BS's offense. This is his first with Kelly. I just don't see any indication that BS can teach and develop QB's to play at a high level.

And the 2008 Jets went 9-7 and missed the playoffs the year they had Favre...

 

[LACHAMP46]

I know we've been over this ad nauseum by now but Sanchez had 3 years in BS's offense. This is his first with Kelly. I just don't see any indication that BS can teach and develop QB's to play at a high level.

And the 2008 Jets went 9-7 and missed the playoffs the year they had Favre...

Ooops....
And my other point with Sanchez is, he should be a much better player now, than the rookie, 2nd, then 3rd year player that Schotty had to work with....And from his play, he is. Not by a great margin, but not as many silly mistakes. And he's virtually the same with Chip Kelly. Pretty good vs poor teams, same ole Sanchez vs playoff teams...And Schotty got to the AFC Championship game with him twice...

 

[Memphis Ram]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3203231

Callahan set to coach Jets' offensive line, running game
Updated: January 18, 2008, 8:15 PM ET
By John Clayton | ESPN.com

The New York Jets reached agreement Friday afternoon with former Nebraska coach Bill Callahan to be the assistant head coach in charge of the running aspect of the offense.

Callahan, who coached the Oakland Raiders to the 2002 AFC championship before they lost to the Bucs in the Super Bowl, has 31 years coaching experience, including nine in the NFL.

"Bill brings valuable experience as an assistant coach and head coach on both the college and NFL levels," Jets coach Eric Mangini told The Associated Press. "His expertise with the running game and with protections will be a big asset. I look forward to adding him to our staff."

Brian Schottenheimer, who failed in his bid to become the Baltimore Ravens head coach, remains the offensive coordinator, but Callahan was brought in to coach the offense line and work with the running game.

 

[-X-]

Brian Schottenheimer, who failed in his bid to become the Baltimore Ravens head coach, remains the offensive coordinator, but Callahan was brought in to coach the offense line and work with the running game.

That's pretty much the same thing Anthony Lynn does. The Jets always use two assistant coaches on offense. One coordinator, one assistant HC/position coach. If your objective is to say that Schotty wasn't even responsible for the running game in New York, then you're just wrong. Assistant HC's don't design plays. They coach positions.

 

[Memphis Ram]

That's pretty much the same thing Anthony Lynn does. The Jets always use two assistant coaches on offense. One coordinator, one assistant HC/position coach. If your objective is to say that Schotty wasn't even responsible for the running game in New York, then you're just wrong. Assistant HC's don't design plays. They coach positions.

So Callahan wasn't the running game coordinator? He wasn't in charge of the running aspect of the offense? He didn't implement that zone rushing attack in New York? OLine coaches assist in the development of running games elsewhere, but they can't if they are given the Asst HC title? Methinks guys like Alex Gibbs & Tom Cable would disagree.

 

[-X-]

So Callahan wasn't the running game coordinator? He wasn't in charge of the running aspect of the offense? He didn't implement that zone rushing attack in New York? OLine coaches assist in the development of running games elsewhere, but they can't if they are given the Asst HC title? Methinks guys like Alex Gibbs & Tom Cable would disagree.

How many guys do you think were calling plays over there? Yes, Callahan was the run game coach and in charge of the development of that aspect of the game.
Just tell me what your end game is, and then we can agree or disagree on that. Are you stripping Schotty of any and all achievements or responsibilities in NY?

If so, who's doing it for him over here (calling the run game)?

 

[Memphis Ram]

How many guys do you think were calling plays over there? Yes, Callahan was the run game coach and in charge of the development of that aspect of the game.
Just tell me what your end game is, and then we can agree or disagree on that. Are you stripping Schotty of any and all achievements or responsibilities in NY?

If so, who's doing it for him over here (calling the run game)?

Play calling had nothing to do with that post. That said, running game coordinators play a large role in the weekly game plans and implementation of their specialties.

BTW, I don't believe that I'm stripping Schotty of anything from my perspective. I just don't happen to give him all the credit that some seem to want to lay at his feet.

Anyway, LACHAMP46 mentioned how Schotty got to two AFC Championship games with Sanchez and here I was merely pointing to one of the central reasons how he got there (the other being the defense). Bill Callahan and the top rated rushing attacks developed. Of which, I can't help but to notice has yet to arrive in St. Louis in 3 seasons.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Tried making light the irony of MR having the gall to post the Mora "you'll never know" rant a few weeks back, of course he utterly failed to see the point (a fan thinking he knows more than any coach actually posting that video) while directing me to his text content (completely irrelevant to my point)

Some guys are just dug in on their views, we get it, he thinks Shotty sucks, he wishes Fisher to bring in unproven (NFL) college gimmick offense coach in hopes that offense will take the league by storm (ala GSOT beginnings) not going to happen, not JF's style.

This is going to go on and on and on, so I'll just dig in and say as long as Fisher is HC, Shotty stays (provided SB8 is retained that's a lock fellas)

Oh... to the point referring to the above conversation, if anyone really believes a "running game coordinator" isn't working under the OC's direct "supervision" then...

 

[Mikey Ram]

In a slightly different area regarding wins and losses...STL today comments (I read on occasion, but they are mostly total assholes IMO)...The question was: Given that you knew before the season started, about ALL the injuries , what would have been your guess about how many wins this year...

tbux wrote:
Before the season started- what was your expected win total for us? Mine was 9. Most said anywhere from 7-10 wins.


It was 8....because of Fisher and his boy Bradford. This horrible coach couldn't even meet those low expectations. When Bradford went down, my prediction was 7 because the dropoff from Bradford to backups 2 and 3 isn't that far.

The drop-off from Bradford to Hill and Davis isn't much ??? Is he kidding ??? Healthy, Sam Bradford wouldn't even have lunch with those 2 back-ups...Hill has been decent, but to compare him to a healthy Bradford is nuts...He's certainly welcome to his opinion, I just think it's out there...My point ??? I have no idea...

 

[Memphis Ram]

Tried making light the irony of MR having the gall to post the Mora "you'll never know" rant a few weeks back, of course he utterly failed to see the point (a fan thinking he knows more than any coach actually posting that video) while directing me to his text content (completely irrelevant to my point)

Some guys are just dug in on their views, we get it, he thinks Shotty sucks, he wishes Fisher to bring in unproven (NFL) college gimmick offense coach in hopes that offense will take the league by storm (ala GSOT beginnings) not going to happen, not JF's style.

This is going to go on and on and on, so I'll just dig in and say as long as Fisher is HC, Shotty stays (provided SB8 is retained that's a lock fellas)

Oh... to the point referring to the above conversation, if anyone really believes a "running game coordinator" isn't working under the OC's direct "supervision" then...

What's tiring is you being wrong..............yet again. And I guess you'll never figure it out.

BUT,
I completely understood how you saw the irony of my post from your perspective.
I don't believe that myself or any fan know more than any coach.
I don't even believe that Brian Schottenhiemer sucks.
And I don't believe that a running game coordinator isn't working under the OC direct supervision. That doesn't diminish his impact.

Please. Throw your straw around elsewhere.

BTW, unlike yourself, I understand that we don't know what Jeff Fisher is going to do this offseason (Talk about irony). Chances are that no one does. In fact, Jeff Fisher might not even know what he's going to do yet.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

What's tiring is you being wrong..............yet again. And I guess you'll never figure it out.

BUT,
I completely understood how you saw the irony of my post from your perspective.
I don't believe that myself or any fan know more than any coach.
I don't even believe that Brian Schottenhiemer sucks.
And I don't believe that a running game coordinator isn't working under the OC direct supervision.

Please. Throw your straw around elsewhere.

BTW, unlike yourself, I understand that we don't know what Jeff Fisher is going to do this offseason (Talk about irony). Chances are that no one does. In fact, Jeff Fisher might not even know what he's going to do yet.

Well then please help me to "figure it out"

I'll try to condense this so here's what I do understand;

You never answered the question of the Rams interior O line issue other than "not abandoning the running game so quickly and focusing more on and mastering the few core plays this team has run well" (talk about strawman) while failing to address what most of us (and apparently the Rams coaching staff) view as being woefully under maned up front. So I say again, Do you really believe that a gimpy Saffold, Scott Wells and freaking Joseph are capable of clearing lanes in the running game on a consistent basis?

That's at least step one.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Well then please help me to "figure it out"

I'll try to condense this so here's what I do understand;

You never answered the question of the Rams interior O line issue other than "not abandoning the running game so quickly and focusing more on and mastering the few core plays this team has run well" (talk about strawman) while failing to address what most of us (and apparently the Rams coaching staff) view as being woefully under maned up front. So I say again, Do you really believe that a gimpy Saffold, Scott Wells and freaking Joseph are capable of clearing lanes in the running game on a consistent basis?

That's at least step one.

I don't even recall being asked the question. But, in the past, I do recall being told to just deal with your opinion as if you know Jeff Fisher's plans and my views being twisted as previously stated. The latter, which you've done yet again.

So why should I even waste my time?

 

[Alan]

I was going to continue my conversation with jrry about what makes a great D (nothing earth shattering ) but this thread is starting to get a little too caustic for me. This is Christmas you know.