Brian Flores suing NFL

[Zodi]

So how does this flesh out from a legal standpoint with the NFL having official betting partners? If Flores could prove what he claims, the Dolphins owner is guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud or some shit, no?

 

[Kupped]

I'm using the term "extortion" in its general sense - an attempt to compel someone to pay you money by threatening them (as opposed to seeking a legal judgment). I believe that this is a primary purpose of this action, along with making a political statement.

Just addressing the language used.

There are other ways to describe it.. punishing an organization for hypocrisy in manipulating its own racial policies for its public benefit, for example.

 

[AvengerRam]

Just addressing the language used.

There are other ways to describe it.. punishing an organization for hypocrisy in manipulating its own racial policies for its public benefit, for example.

You can call it what you want, but the purpose of the legal system is not to shame others into providing a remedy. The purpose is to allege and prove valid legal claims. I do not believe there is a valid legal claim against the league as a whole.

 

[thirteen28]

I think women could make excellent GMs and scouts.

Mmmm, not so sure about that ... after all:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQzQcVuof0

 

[TexasRam]

If you think owners and GM’s don’t want the most qualified person for the job and would rather hire only a white person because his skin is white, then you need to get a grip on reality.

Billions and millions of dollars are on the line, so are careers.

Racism is perpetuated by those that won’t stop emphasizing race and by those creating rules based on race.

But how bout those Rams!!!

 

[PhillyRam]

If you think owners and GM’s don’t want the most qualified person for the job and would rather hire only a white person because his skin is white, then you need to get a grip on reality.

Billions and millions of dollars are on the line, so are careers.

Racism is perpetuated by those that won’t stop emphasizing race and by those creating rules based on race.

But how bout those Rams!!!

Amen!

 

[Kupped]

You can call it what you want, but the purpose of the legal system is not to shame others into providing a remedy. The purpose is to allege and prove valid legal claims. I do not believe there is a valid legal claim against the league as a whole.

You’re much closer to this than I am and, obviously, have strong feelings about it.
Just telling you that others have a different viewpoint.

 

[Kupped]

If you think owners and GM’s don’t want the most qualified person for the job and would rather hire only a white person because his skin is white, then you need to get a grip on reality.

Billions and millions of dollars are on the line, so are careers.

Racism is perpetuated by those that won’t stop emphasizing race and by those creating rules based on race.

But how bout those Rams!!!

That’s why they ALWAYS hire the best candidate!!

 

[AvengerRam]

You’re much closer to this than I am and, obviously, have strong feelings about it.
Just telling you that others have a different viewpoint.

To me, its not about feelings or viewpoints. Its about evidence. Until I see evidence that establishes the existence of a disparity that can be attributed to collective or collusive action by the league, I will continue to view this as a case-by-case, team-by-team, hiring/firing-by-hiring/firing issue.

Does Brian Flores have a valid claim against the Dolphins? I don't see it, but perhaps there's evidence out there.
Does Brian Flores have a valid claim against the Giants? Maybe. I'd like to hear more about their hiring process.
Does Brian Flores have a valid class action claim against the NFL. I see no evidence of that.

 

[Merlin]

If you think owners and GM’s don’t want the most qualified person for the job and would rather hire only a white person because his skin is white, then you need to get a grip on reality.

Billions and millions of dollars are on the line, so are careers.

Racism is perpetuated by those that won’t stop emphasizing race and by those creating rules based on race.

But how bout those Rams!!!

I think that is true. And it's also true that there are people in hiring who are making decisions based on color of skin. Both are true.

In fact it's not even really racism. Racism is what you get if an alien landed and we don't like him because he's green. The dumb shit we do to each other is actually ethnicism.

And prejudging others based on color of skin and shit probably is wired in all of us to some extent as a survival element. How could it not be? The world has always been dangerous and in days of yore people with swords who were not your people were probably gonna kill you.

 

[PhillyRam]

Brian Flores finished the 2021 season on a 8-1 run. The Dolphins fired him anyways. He led them to back-to-back winning seasons despite having a very mediocre roster. Yet, somehow, many other NFL teams wanted no part of him this off-season while considering numerous retread candidates.

By filing this lawsuit, Brian Flores has EVERYTHING TO LOSE. He could have kept quiet, taken a coordinator job, and been a head coach again soon. This lawsuit could end his NFL career. I ask you to think about that before you glibly dismiss his allegations.

To play devil's advocate, could it be that Flores is difficult to get along with and had a diff vision at QB than the owner? Maybe one wanted to make a move for Watson and the other didn't. That would be a huge issue in any work relationship.

If McVay and Snead began having a major disagreement on the direction of the team, at some point Kronke would have to dump one of them.

 

[jrry32]

Its not only believable, it happens all the time (just on a smaller scale).

As for Flores' individual motivation, I don't know the guy. Perhaps he's unable to accept his own shortcomings, and has been persuaded to take this fight on by others. Perhaps he sees it as his calling, even more so than coaching.

You seem to have concluded that a worthy "principle" is involved. I'm not so sure. While I'm sure there are individual hiring/firing decisions in the NFL that are tainted with discriminatory motives, alleging that its a systemic issue within the NFL (which would essentially require proof of collusion or collective action) is pretty far-fetched. That's not to say that one can't try to make that case, but when I see absurd allegations in a Complaint describing the NFL as being like a "plantation" merely because the owners are almost exclusively white and the players are 70% black, I stop taking the matter seriously.

I've concluded that Flores is risking too much for me to simply dismiss this lawsuit as a guy who is merely disgruntled. That conclusion doesn't make sense. Nor does any claim about his shortcomings. If anything, the dude should have been in far greater demand than he was this off-season, which indicates to me that Ross spoke to other owners after he fired Flores.

You've been dismissive from the start. I don't know where you're getting the certainty. Hell, it's not like the NFL didn't just have a very public collusion case go poorly in the past few years (Kaepernick). I'm going to wait and see what comes of this.

 

[jrry32]

To play devil's advocate, could it be that Flores is difficult to get along with and had a diff vision at QB than the owner? Maybe one wanted to make a move for Watson and the other didn't. That would be a huge issue in any work relationship.

If McVay and Snead began having a major disagreement on the direction of the team, at some point Kronke would have to dump one of them.

If it was as simple as that, Flores wouldn't be suing. He'd go find another job. I'm not saying that people need to take Flores's allegations as the gospel. I'm simply saying he's risking too much for people to casually dismiss them.

 

[thirteen28]

So how does this flesh out from a legal standpoint with the NFL having official betting partners? If Flores could prove what he claims, the Dolphins owner is guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud or some shit, no?

I think that issue is separate from the racism charge, or at least I can't see how the two connect. I think that could be bad - explosively bad - for the NFL if proof was produced, and I think it would almost certainly cause the Dolphins owner to be removed, if not prosecuted for what you suggest. I've always thought of Stephen Ross as sort of a starfucker, so it doesn't seem to be a stretch that he would do that, especially if he would fire a coach that had two consecutive winning seasons and finished the last one on an 8-1 stretch.

Then again, I only do patent law and I'm not even a lawyer (still have my soul) so ask one of the lawyer types

 

[jrry32]

Didn't 2 teams just hire black GMs as did 2 last yr as well. So not seeing overt racism here.

I am sure there is an issue to some extent that white owners, maybe just subconsciously, relate better to white coaches. Not saying that's right, but it happens. And thus they are more likely to hire white coaches. If you had a league dominated by black owners the majority of head coaches would be black. Again not right, but it's likely to occur.

And there could be an issue where there are not enough quality black candidates available.

Lets face it, the white HS star football player who is a football geek, is more likely to play small school college football then go right into coaching like McVay did. Where as the better and more talented black player actually plays big time football and does not get into coaching...at least not right away.

Marshall Faulk would probably be a great coach had he not made it and got into coaching when he was 23. Instead as a former professional player he has no desire or need to coach.

I'd prefer not to go down this road because it's a topic ROD likely won't want discussed. So I'll leave it at this. There are numbers and studies out there. They don't indicate that reality.

However, the italicized portion of your post is likely the truth in most cases.

 

[AvengerRam]

I've concluded that Flores is risking too much for me to simply dismiss this lawsuit as a guy who is merely disgruntled. That conclusion doesn't make sense. Nor does any claim about his shortcomings. If anything, the dude should have been in far greater demand than he was this off-season, which indicates to me that Ross spoke to other owners after he fired Flores.

You've been dismissive from the start. I don't know where you're getting the certainty. Hell, it's not like the NFL didn't just have a very public collusion case go poorly in the past few years (Kaepernick). I'm going to wait and see what comes of this.

Kaepernick and Eric Reid received less than $10M when they settled with the NFL. The NFL has more change than that in the sofa cushions of the league office's waiting room. If that is what Flores is hoping for, that's fine.

I am "dismissive" of the lawsuit because, having read it, its clear that its a massive overreach that is designed to make a political point, rather than a surgical effort to state a legal claim on behalf of the plaintiff. I don't practice that way. I investigate and seek out evidence, then allege the legal claims that flow from that evidence. I don't file papers calling major corporations "plantations" and implying that highly paid athletes are akin to slaves (which is something that Flores' complaint does).

 

[PhillyRam]

If it was as simple as that, Flores wouldn't be suing. He'd go find another job. I'm not saying that people need to take Flores's allegations as the gospel. I'm simply saying he's risking too much for people to casually dismiss them.

Well you don't know that. We have no idea what his personality is and if that would even indicate if he was in fact tough to get along with.

You really think he was fired for his color of his skin? If so why was he ever hired? Common sense says it has to be more than just that.

 

[TexasRam]

I think that is true. And it's also true that there are people in hiring who are making decisions based on color of skin. Both are true.

In fact it's not even really racism. Racism is what you get if an alien landed and we don't like him because he's green. The dumb shit we do to each other is actually ethnicism.

And prejudging others based on color of skin and shit probably is wired in all of us to some extent as a survival element. How could it not be? The world has always been dangerous and in days of yore people with swords who were not your people were probably gonna kill you.

I am pretty sure a GM who spends the very waking hour for decades on football operations, comparing contrasting offensive and defensive systems and schemes and personnel is bringing a little more to his thought process when it comes to his career then simply “going with the white guy”.

If you are talking a women walking down a dark alley and profiling based on what she sees on the nightly news then yes profiling would probably come into play.

Two very different things.

 

[OldSchool]

If it was as simple as that, Flores wouldn't be suing. He'd go find another job. I'm not saying that people need to take Flores's allegations as the gospel. I'm simply saying he's risking too much for people to casually dismiss them.

My biggest desire from all this is we get a better Rooney rule and implementation of it. It's a good program and a good desire just like with a lot of things there are flaws.

 

[Merlin]

I am pretty sure a GM who spends the very waking hour for decades on football operations, comparing contrasting offensive and defensive systems and schemes and personnel is bringing a little more to his thought process when it comes to his career then simply “going with the white guy”.

If you are talking a women walking down a dark alley and profiling based on what she sees on the nightly news then yes profiling would probably come into play.

Two very different things.

I think both are true.

I think your basic GM is as you describe. But there are also going to be guys who prejudge some of the candidates.

Whether the Giants did that no idea, however when that is in question there is the legal option which he took here. We'll see what happens.

Now aside from all that I do think some of the investigations you can get out of this type of stuff can be witch hunts. But that is another conversation and this topic is already one that can get heated.