3-4 or 4-3????

[dieterbrock]

I guess it would be better to start a new thread that just people interested in things I post can go and those not interested can ignore it.

Keep up the good work, your posts are awesome

 

[tklongball]

@DantheMan, you are a welcome addition to this board. I appreciate the info you bring.

 

[den-the-coach]

 

[Kupped]

I guess it would be better to start a new thread that just people interested in things I post can go and those not interested can ignore it.

Dan, you just gotta disabuse yourself of the notion that oldnotdead will ever admit to being wrong on something. There's a screw loose there.
It's a bit of a bummer, because sometimes his posts are good!

You're a fantastic addition to this board and know more about football than I could ever hope to. Thanks for the lessons, I'm trying to absorb it all!

 

[Corbin]

Why the hell would we change to the 4-3?

The 3-4 has treated us well since transitioning to it and the personal is set for 3-4.

 

[JimY53]

Dan, you just gotta disabuse yourself of the notion that oldnotdead will ever admit to being wrong on something. There's a screw loose there.

Long story short. On another board I still belong to his stuff was copied and pasted and used as "authoritative" and his "juicy posts" were used in an effort by "group 4" people. What was frustrating was there, nothing could be questioned and all it did was cause issues with 1-2 RM haters.

So, I was not kind to him there. So, thought would confront and discuss. As you are saying, that ain't going to happen. And it is too bad. All of use could learn things. Some more than others.

 

[OldSchool]

I've been saying we don't have the CB's for 2 years now to play press. Witherspoon isn't much better if he's any better.

 

[Kupped]

I've been saying we don't have the CB's for 2 years now to play press. Witherspoon isn't much better if he's any better.

Very much need an upgrade at the position.
I wonder how much of a liability Kendrick would be with a true number 1 opposite him, AND a real pass rush.

Rams got one sack today. That's a joke agains the most sacked QB in the NFL.

 

[VegasRam]

If there were an award given for most words typed on this board..... I know who my $$$ would be on.

Carry on....

...about the same fucking topic - maybe just a copy and paste ...

 

[JimY53]

I don't think the OP understands what the Rams play.

He's not the only one.

It uses at least one OLB as a JACK who plays as a second DE.

JACK is the 2nd inside linebacker in Fangio terminology. If he's replaced by a safety it's called "money backer" - the dime linebacker.

0T which means he's head to head with the center. This means he's the only one on the DL playing 2 gaps.

No. Head-to-head does not only mean 2-gap. It just doesn't.

 

[JimY53]

The 5-1 Penny in Fanio is what is considered unqiue - it is the light box 5-man surface (3 DL, 2 OLBer) with one LB on second level a star (Ni)

the terminology of these are from Fangio's playbook...they don't show FS or SS because they play left and right so they are both $ -- so as not to confuse with the SAM (S) and the strength of the offense is not on the "Y" or "TE" it's the 3 receiver side

In some calls, like this one the NT has a 2-way go. Others, like the next have a call -- left or right. That is their primary gap that they attack. There are fronts of TITE and TUFF -- One takes front side A-Gap the other takes backside A-Gap and then squeeze the other ... see the diagram, the same is true of the 3-4. But in the Penny (5-1) and the 3-4 (looks like 5-2) there are various alignments.

It's a "never say never" thing but in the Penny, what makes it work is the gap-½ ... why? Because you can see the 6-man front (5-1) has to do the work of a 7-man front (a 4-3 or a 3-4) ... that is what makes it a light box ... it's one lighter than the 7-man boxes.

So to cover for the missing guy they have to play the fabled gap-½

Letters are how Rams currently deploying players---it could change, the CBs were different early in the season. Red numbers are the techniques == bottom is the technique to be played and a better explanation of Gap-½ than I have been using. Maybe that can clear up some confusion ... I was doing the best I could but this is more concise and specific. Just a tip, if you see a 5-1 Penny with Rams or any team it's going to be 7-8-9 times of 10 Gap-½ ... when it's not it is going to be some stunt that makes it 1-gap. If it is a pass, then they are going to rush the passer so run fits are for the run ... if pass shows all bets off, get after the quarterback!!!!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

McVay picks his DC. So just like any other coach he hires, he will look for one that can run the scheme he prefers. So far that seems to be a 3/4. I guess its possible that he could decide to change but a 4/3 would limit moving AD all over the line.

The only reason they have had trouble finding enough good edge rushers is because they haven't had a first round pick since they picked Goff.

 

[TexasRam]

1. No. Had to learn the Fango playbook when it became in vogue. Even before was familiar with old school 3-4, 4-3, gap control, 1-gap, 2-gap. But Gap-½ is fairly new. Had to learn more about it. It's kind of a college thing. Georgia's "Mint" front is the same thing. but has different terminology for some of the positions--the linebackers, for instance.

2. No inside information

3. Yes. Always have said Morris has put his stamp on it, just like Staley put his own stamp on it. You are exactly right in fact, Fangio has evolved. Coaches have to based on who they play in the division, personnel, weekly game plans

But that is the case for anyone. Pete Carroll's disciples don't do exactly what he did -- Bradley, Saleh, Quinn, etc ... put their tweaks on things.

Fisher put his tweaks on Buddy Ryan's defense. Eventually married the Bears front with Tampa-2
Lovie put his stamp on Dungy's stuff.

But in the case of the Rams, Morris is running match quarters out of Cover 2/4 shell and rotates into what the call is. Remember Fangio didn't invent a 3-4, didn't invent quarters or even the 5-1 Penny (6-man box gap-1/2 thing people have tried to copy. He just has rules within the defense that are developed to stop explosive plays. It's been found explosive plays are a big factor in winning and losing.

Cool. Well appreciate your takes. Lots of knowledge of scheme for us to chew on here, its appreciated.

I feel like I might need to do a crash course however, If I am going to follow some of your posts. Not familiar with some of the terminology or assignments within the scheme.

My only problem with investing some time on the playbooks though, is I do feel it is a bit like chasing the wind. There are so many tweaks to scheme that we are not privy to, so a ton of assumptions would need to be made for each play, I feel. Not to mention, I am more interested in the offensive side personally. It's hard enough to try to follow what Mcvay is doing.

Regarding Morris implementation, While I see the value to an extent of running the deep shells and letting the team go down the field while protecting vs the big play, I do get frustrated with the approach for a few reasons:
1. The Low percentage of Blitzing and risk taking decreases the turnover rate.
2. The approach impacts time of possession.
3. The approach can make the game easier on backup QB's and subpar offenses, conceding underneath stuff.
4. The calls are very predictable most of the time, making the game easier for the opposing offense.

What are your thoughts on the Morris approach? I did notice he seems to be bringing 5 guys more often with Jones blitzing more. At least it seems that way. I also like the Lake nickel tweak. He also stopped that huge 12 yard cushion he used to have the CB's give, which drove me insane.

 

[BuffaloRam]

I’m not a huge D guy but can appreciate that by adding and EDGE and CB will benefit us. Money and picks next year - should be able to help us out

 

[JimY53]

Regarding Morris implementation, While I see the value to an extent of running the deep shells and letting the team go down the field while protecting vs the big play, I do get frustrated with the approach for a few reasons:
1. The Low percentage of Blitzing and risk taking decreases the turnover rate.
2. The approach impacts time of possession.
3. The approach can make the game easier on backup QB's and subpar offenses, conceding underneath stuff.
4. The calls are very predictable most of the time, making the game easier for the opposing offense.

What are your thoughts on the Morris approach? I did notice he seems to be bringing 5 guys more often with Jones blitzing more. At least it seems that way. I also like the Lake nickel tweak. He also stopped that huge 12 yard cushion he used to have the CB's give, which drove me insane.

1. I think the low percentage of blitzing is a relative term. I think often fans may not watch a ton of other games. Some, but not a ton. Rams blitz about 25% of the time since Fangio scheme installed in 2020. It's middle of the pack. So, it is low if you compare it to league leaders that blitz around 40-45% of the time, but it's much more than the low percentage of blitzing teams that are around 15%.

.

2. Time of possession is about about average this year. 22nd last year. Botton 5 in Super Bowl year. But 1st in playoffs. It is impacted by a lot of things. Quick-score offenses will get off the field faster. Also, teams that have a lot of turnovers right after they get the ball. And teams that have a lot of 3 and outs. Rams bottom 10 when it comes to that, added together...

3. Jourdan has explained that what costs games is giving up chunk plays, especially in the middle of the field. I think people just get frustrated but don't see what happens elsewhere. They don't see teams getting burned for quick scores. Look at this years. Rams playing much tighter coverage and giving up a lot more bombs. When you don't have a complete defense you give up something.

Chiefs fans wanted Spags fired, right into the the playoffs last year. Just like Rams fans wanted Morris fired right the end of season in 2021. They just don't realize that the Rams don't have it as bad as they think they do.

4. I also think that is fan perception. Rams play as many coverages as anyone. The disguise is in the post-snap rotation. I think fans think it is predictable. If it were so predictable Rams would not have won Super Bowl with Morris. Or be in the hunt this year. Or a top-10 defense last year until Donald went out, and that was with a bottom-5 offense.

I have my preference of defense and it's NOT the Fangio scheme. It's the flavor of the day and have to live with it.

To me it is the results. Sure, it would be great to be higher. But when you add th rankings of all teh major categories of all the teams and sum them since 2021-23, including playoffs and done on a per-game basis (apples to apples, in context) the Rams defense ranks in the top 10. It is 9th.

Against the run, it is 6th in yards, 6th in yards per attempt.
Passing yards a game in 22nd TDs passes per game 4th (might be higher this was done a week ago) but top 5 for sure.
INTs per game is 8th, INT percentage is 11th.
Sacks per game 13th and sack percentage is 19th
Defensive passer rating is 6th
Net points (when you take out the pick 6s and scoop and scores against us -- Rams are 4th worse offense in that) is 11th
Points is 15th
Total yards is 13th
3rd down conversions is 13th
4th down conversions is 26th -- okay that one is bad
Defensive yards per play is 12th
DVOA in 2021 was top 5 and very high (top 5-6 until Donald went down last year) I don't know this year because it is now behind a paywall.

So, the defense is a good defense.

What I truly feel is that people exaggerate things. Some did it in good faith, like you -- 12-yard cushions was never true. That is a gross exaggeration. What was true is Rams played with deeper cushions than most teams. But 12 yards? Come on.

Others exaggerated things in bad faith. And this is not you. They said Morris was stupid or lacked "balls" and used any and every means to degrade him personally. That is what was offensive to me.

But a good, fair discussion like you are willing to have about the negatives (and there are some) and the positives (and there are some) of Morris and his use of the Fangio scheme are always productive and fun. Probably the good things were undervalued by some fans and the bad things were blown out of proportion.

I don't think Morris is a great coach. I don't think he deserved to be fired at midseason 2021 or last year or this year. I think there are defensive schemes I prefer to Fangio ... but I don't get to make that choice. I thought, however, Staley was a great coach. But I was wrong. I think he's a good coach who was among the first of a new scheme that befuddled the NFL for a year then they caught up a little. Staley was human but was overrated by Rams fans based on one year of success.

The bottom line is since you are saying it is my opinion that Morris got treated by a few like he deserved to get fired and at no point in his tenure with the Rams did he deserve it. The defense is not a top 5 defense, but it's not a bottom 20 defense either ... even when Donald was out for a month and a half.

People are free to disagree with me on any of that.

EXCEPT they cannot really disagree with the numbers and cannot disagree with what the film/photos and the playbooks say. They can say they don't like him or his defense or his cushions or the pass rush or whatever. But to say he's so stupid and cowardly that he tries to lose just to play his favorite guys and he fails not only because of that but because he does things radically different than Staley and uses outdated defensive line play and outdated zone coverages. or that he was "Bad Morris" in the reg season of 2021 then "Good Morris" in the playoffs the "Bad Morris" in 2022 and then "Good Morris in 2023... it is simply absurd.

If anyone thinks he's bad, go ahead think he's bad. They'd have no problem with me. We'd simply disagree, but that is what life is.
If someone thinks he lacks smarts and is a coward? They deserved to be challenged at every turn.

 

[TexasRam]

1. I think the low percentage of blitzing is a relative term. I think often fans may not watch a ton of other games. Some, but not a ton. Rams blitz about 25% of the time since Fangio scheme installed in 2020. It's middle of the pack. So, it is low if you compare it to league leaders that blitz around 40-45% of the time, but it's much more than the low percentage of blitzing teams that are around 15%.

.View attachment 63216

2. Time of possession is about about average this year. 22nd last year. Botton 5 in Super Bowl year. But 1st in playoffs. It is impacted by a lot of things. Quick-score offenses will get off the field faster. Also, teams that have a lot of turnovers right after they get the ball. And teams that have a lot of 3 and outs. Rams bottom 10 when it comes to that, added together...

3. Jourdan has explained that what costs games is giving up chunk plays, especially in the middle of the field. I think people just get frustrated but don't see what happens elsewhere. They don't see teams getting burned for quick scores. Look at this years. Rams playing much tighter coverage and giving up a lot more bombs. When you don't have a complete defense you give up something.

Chiefs fans wanted Spags fired, right into the the playoffs last year. Just like Rams fans wanted Morris fired right the end of season in 2021. They just don't realize that the Rams don't have it as bad as they think they do.

4. I also think that is fan perception. Rams play as many coverages as anyone. The disguise is in the post-snap rotation. I think fans think it is predictable. If it were so predictable Rams would not have won Super Bowl with Morris. Or be in the hunt this year. Or a top-10 defense last year until Donald went out, and that was with a bottom-5 offense.

I have my preference of defense and it's NOT the Fangio scheme. It's the flavor of the day and have to live with it.

To me it is the results. Sure, it would be great to be higher. But when you add th rankings of all teh major categories of all the teams and sum them since 2021-23, including playoffs and done on a per-game basis (apples to apples, in context) the Rams defense ranks in the top 10. It is 9th.

Against the run, it is 6th in yards, 6th in yards per attempt.
Passing yards a game in 22nd TDs passes per game 4th (might be higher this was done a week ago) but top 5 for sure.
INTs per game is 8th, INT percentage is 11th.
Sacks per game 13th and sack percentage is 19th
Defensive passer rating is 6th
Net points (when you take out the pick 6s and scoop and scores against us -- Rams are 4th worse offense in that) is 11th
Points is 15th
Total yards is 13th
3rd down conversions is 13th
4th down conversions is 26th -- okay that one is bad
Defensive yards per play is 12th
DVOA in 2021 was top 5 and very high (top 5-6 until Donald went down last year) I don't know this year because it is now behind a paywall.

So, the defense is a good defense.

View attachment 63217

What I truly feel is that people exaggerate things. Some did it in good faith, like you -- 12-yard cushions was never true. That is a gross exaggeration. What was true is Rams played with deeper cushions than most teams. But 12 yards? Come on.

Others exaggerated things in bad faith. And this is not you. They said Morris was stupid or lacked "balls" and used any and every means to degrade him personally. That is what was offensive to me.

But a good, fair discussion like you are willing to have about the negatives (and there are some) and the positives (and there are some) of Morris and his use of the Fangio scheme are always productive and fun. Probably the good things were undervalued by some fans and the bad things were blown out of proportion.

I don't think Morris is a great coach. I don't think he deserved to be fired at midseason 2021 or last year or this year. I think there are defensive schemes I prefer to Fangio ... but I don't get to make that choice. I thought, however, Staley was a great coach. But I was wrong. I think he's a good coach who was among the first of a new scheme that befuddled the NFL for a year then they caught up a little. Staley was human but was overrated by Rams fans based on one year of success.

The bottom line is since you are saying it is my opinion that Morris got treated by a few like he deserved to get fired and at no point in his tenure with the Rams did he deserve it. The defense is not a top 5 defense, but it's not a bottom 20 defense either ... even when Donald was out for a month and a half.

People are free to disagree with me on any of that.

EXCEPT they cannot really disagree with the numbers and cannot disagree with what the film/photos and the playbooks say. They can say they don't like him or his defense or his cushions or the pass rush or whatever. But to say he's so stupid and cowardly that he tries to lose just to play his favorite guys and he fails not only because of that but because he does things radically different than Staley and uses outdated defensive line play and outdated zone coverages. or that he was "Bad Morris" in the reg season of 2021 then "Good Morris" in the playoffs the "Bad Morris" in 2022 and then "Good Morris in 2023... it is simply absurd.

If anyone thinks he's bad, go ahead think he's bad. They'd have no problem with me. We'd simply disagree, but that is what life is.
If someone thinks he lacks smarts and is a coward? They deserved to be challenged at every turn.

Cool thanks for the response. I can always appreciate posters reasoning when backed by some stats and context, delivered with a friendly tone as you have here.

While not a huge fan of Morris defensive calls at times, I have come to appreciate his overall end result - to a degree. The 2021 Playoffs, Super Bowl performance by the defense was solid, even if we had a stacked team towards the end with Miller, Weddle etc. I think the huge cushions earlier in the year and other questionable things were mostly eliminated by the time Miller came on board. I also think the overall job this year (with the lack of talent) has been solid in terms of ppg/red zone despite the yards given up. BTW- the huge cushions were a real thing in my opinion, I remember still shots (on this message board) of 10-12 yard cushions repeatedly on third and 6 or third and 8, resulting in easy completions. I remember several analysts calling the games pointing these out on more then a few occasions, asking what they are doing. Troy Aikman and a few others. Maybe there were some fans doing some exaggeration but it was a real problem for a while in my book. Never heard an explanation, but it's possible there was some plan behind that strategy. Watching the Rams concede those first downs was frustrating.

My biggest frustration to date though, and probably the only one I have, is the lack of blitzing on third and fourth down. Don't get me wrong, most everything else I am mostly OK with (this not coming from some self professed expert, but just a casual fan of 40 years watching several different defensive approaches). One example is the 3rd and 17 Lamar Jackson TD pass to Flowers. I realize Lamar is a tough guy to bring down even on a blitz, but giving him that much time to let long developing routes come open vs our subpar DB group was tough to watch. This same approach seems to be how he make the calls in these situations. The element of surprise is so potent. I think with Morris low blitz rate - If Morris would bring lots of unexpected pressure on rare occasions, it would really be effective. I have seen him do it a few times in other games very effectively. I don't have the stats in front of me, but it also seems the extra pressure is almost exclusively coming from E. Jones via A gap, rather then some other players in unexpected packages.

 

[JimY53]

Cool thanks for the response. I can always appreciate posters reasoning when backed by some stats and context, delivered with a friendly tone as you have here.

While not a huge fan of Morris defensive calls at times, I have come to appreciate his overall end result - to a degree. The 2021 Playoffs, Super Bowl performance by the defense was solid, even if we had a stacked team towards the end with Miller, Weddle etc. I think the huge cushions earlier in the year and other questionable things were mostly eliminated by the time Miller came on board. I also think the overall job this year (with the lack of talent) has been solid in terms of ppg/red zone despite the yards given up. BTW- the huge cushions were a real thing in my opinion, I remember still shots (on this message board) of 10-12 yard cushions repeatedly on third and 6 or third and 8, resulting in easy completions. I remember several analysts calling the games pointing these out on more then a few occasions, asking what they are doing. Troy Aikman and a few others. Maybe there were some fans doing some exaggeration but it was a real problem for a while in my book. Never heard an explanation, but it's possible there was some plan behind that strategy. Watching the Rams concede those first downs was frustrating.

Jourdan explained the reasons. My problem is piles and piles of words were written and Jourdan talked on her podcast about it yet people still claim they don't understand why it was happening. The information is available but people.

Another thing that frustrates me, since we are talking about such things. You initially said "Huge 12 yard cushions" then I mentioned that as an exaggeration and you came back with "10-12 yard cushions". That matters to me because it's changing the whole dynamic of a fair and friendly discussion. Had you said "10 yard cushions" I would not have said that was an exaggeration.

The reason I bring it up is that it's why I have to spend my time fighting misinformation. If we could just start with the facts it would be so much easier to discuss things.

But there is a theory behind the Fangio scheme. And off-coverage is part of that, they are playing quarters. And maybe we don't like it but it's the way it is. And it's common to all the teams playing Fangio schemes. Announcers talk about it often, especially Greg Olsen and not just in Rams games. I watch a lot games other than ours and have learned a lot.

I also have shown many times that the defense didn't suddenly change in the 2021 playoffs. People just didn't complain because the Rams won. It's easy enough to see off coverage the majority of the time in the playoffs, the same as in the regular season. I have watched those games a lot. Many times each. There was not more blitzing more press coverage or some radical change. What happened is a handful of players stepped up their game and those guys contributed like they hadn't all year.

It would be easy for a Morris fan to say he schemed up something new, some big change that made a difference, that they were somehow more aggressive. But they weren't. The films show better execution.

I don't think you are from the school of some people (like one particular poster here) who will never give Morris credit for anything. You seem fair. But I am from the school of thought that likes results. And when Morris helped the Rams win a Super Bowl and then people still complained about things it really frustrated me. They (not you) would even deny where the Rams ranked in defense and refused to acknowledge the good.

So, I appreciate your feedback. But I stand by what I've said before. Morris is neither stupid nor cowardly. He's not some genius either. The Rams defense is not a great one but it is not one that ever played at a level that Morris should be fired.

I prefer other defenses but I don't get what I want but I give Morris respect but he was part of why he got a ring.

My biggest frustration to date though, and probably the only one I have, is the lack of blitzing on third and fourth down. Don't get me wrong, most everything else I am mostly OK with (this not coming from some self professed expert, but just a casual fan of 40 years watching several different defensive approaches). One example is the 3rd and 17 Lamar Jackson TD pass to Flowers. I realize Lamar is a tough guy to bring down even on a blitz, but giving him that much time to let long developing routes come open vs our subpar DB group was tough to watch. This same approach seems to be how he make the calls in these situations. The element of surprise is so potent. I think with Morris low blitz rate - If Morris would bring lots of unexpected pressure on rare occasions, it would really be effective. I have seen him do it a few times in other games very effectively. I don't have the stats in front of me, but it also seems the extra pressure is almost exclusively coming from E. Jones via A gap, rather then some other players in unexpected packages.

As to blitzing ... maybe you are right. Or maybe you are wrong. Maybe blitzing more would be a good thing. Or maybe it would be a bad thing. I just don't know what is being used to come to that opinion.

Morris blitzes at about average rate -- high is 40% or so, lo is 15%, Rams around the middle, (Rams top few in NFL in 2021). But you (again) said "low blitz rate". It's not fair that you say "low blitz rate" when it's not a low blitz rate.

Essentially you are saying you prefer a heavy blitzing defense. Okay, fair enough. You maybe want the Rams to blitz at a 30-35-40% rate like the teams that blitz the most do. Maybe you think Rams can play man coverage well enough to blitz more guys from "unexpected packages" but it's possible Morris (and the rest of the defensive staff) doesn't.

One thing I do think is that Morris and his assistants are in a better position to know than me. I can speculate all day long but I'd never know one way or another.

 

[Merlin]

View: https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1740104012773618116

 

[shovelpass]

Ted Nguyen has a pretty good piece on how Morris used Jones to neutralize Kamara as a receiving threat by blitzing.
https://theathletic.com/5161135/2023/12/27/nfl-week-16-results-scores-coaching-decisions/

 

[JimY53]

I don't have the stats in front of me, but it also seems the extra pressure is almost exclusively coming from E. Jones via A gap, rather then some other players in unexpected packages.

Jones is used on the inside because that way to keep the backs in pass pro. Backs scan inside to out so pressure in the middle give that (pressure) and keeps back out of passing concept