3-4 or 4-3????

[BonifayRam]

2023 projected contracted roster would be flexible to operate in either a 34 D or 43 D.

The biggest issue is well known from what this 2022 defense has demonstrated all year in this deplorable season. It's the lack of pass rush from primarily the OLB'er posts.

Rams will be fine in 34 D ILB'ers & 43 D & 34 D capable DL'ers. But overall they sorely lack bonified pass rushers in the front 7 no matter what the future holds for them.

If I were Snead my first 2nd rd selection in April would be the best pass rusher available no matter what position he plays in the defensive front 5. Snead has failed badly in his past draft selections in this OLB/ER position since becoming the Rams GM. His only hit was #99 since 2012 & Donald has carried this heavy load all by himself for far too long. Not sure Snead could do much worse in drafting OLB/ER's.

 

[JimY53]

I don't think the OP understands what the Rams play. The Rams play a 3-4 hybrid scheme. That is a 3-4 played like a 4-3, i.e. a one gap scheme. It uses at least one OLB as a JACK who plays as a second DE. By design, it's supposed to be played aggressively, in an attacking style with the DL penetrating to make plays behind the LOS. So in that regard, it's no different than an aggressively played 4-3.

The problem is, Morris doesn't play that way. He will mix his DL alignments. The hybrid 3-4 is designed to play on the shoulders of the OL. The NT is played as a 1T but Morris often plays his NT (Gaines) as a 0T which means he's head to head with the center. This means he's the only one on the DL playing 2 gaps. A normal 3-4 is a two gap scheme for the DL and is predicated upon freeing up the LBs to make the tackles. But with everyone else playing 1 gap it really fucks up the ILB assignments. It's why too many times the middle of the DL is soft against the run. With only the NT playing two gaps it means at least one of the ILBs needs to back him up which all too often doesn't happen.

One gap DL tend to be lighter, emphasizing quickness and speed as their assignment is to penetrate and disrupt. Two gap DL tend to be bigger and more stout as their assignment is to eat up blockers to allow the 3 LBs to make the play. This is why I keep saying Morris doesn't play his personnel to their strengths. This front 7 was designed by their personnel to play a one gap scheme. But Morris keeps playing it like it's a two gap scheme. WTF??

One gap penetration is what most teams have migrated to. That is the type of personnel the Rams have on defense. You can tell what kind of defense a team plays simply by 1. how they align along the LOS and 2. the type of personnel they have along the DL. Go ahead and look and you will see most teams are one gapping. Morris has a defensive unit designed to attack and he plays them soft. WTF is wrong with him?

 

[oldnotdead]

The defense was structured and in many ways still is a 3-4 hybrid system. I can't think of a 3-4 these days that isn't played as a hybrid system. What hybrid means is that the roster is composed of 3-4 front 7 type players who can be moved around and played in many ways. The tip off is that the DL is composed of 3 DL (DT Donald, NT Brown, DE Hoecht). Their primary edge is an OLB who plays on the LOS and functions as the edge opposite of the DE. The DE is bigger than most 4-3 DEs who are more like Young. But the Rams play bigger edges who normally lack the speed but bring a power game, i.e. Mathis. These players allow the DC to play 2 gap, one gap or like Morris does a combination of both. The DC can play with a 3 man DL or a 4 man DL. A conventional 4-3 doesn't have the roster flexibility.

Morris on early downs will align his NT in a 0T, i.e. playing a 2 gap style. The conventional 3-4 is strictly a 2 gap DL where they function as blocker eaters allowing the 4 LBs to make the tackles. A conventional 4-3 is a one gap system with two DEs who are lighter and faster than the 3-4 DE. The 3-4 hybrid uses 3-4 type players but plays them in a one gap scheme. The one gap scheme is a more aggressive style of play, as it's predicated upon penetration and attacking the offense in the backfield. Normally the DC will have two of the LBs playing contain as SAM and WIL with the MIKE covering the opposite A gap that the 1T isn't covering. All 3 LB flow to B gap runs.

You can differentiate the difference by DL alignment, roster make up and how they are played. The Rams play a 3-4 hybrid system.

 

[oldnotdead]

IMO the lack of pass rush is by Morris' design. He is definitely prioritizing run on down's one and two. Read / react is not conducive to quick pressure and you can tell they are reading by how both Donald and Young play, particularly on early downs. OCs know how incredibly predictable Morris is so they know their QB will have a lot of time if they throw on first downs and most running downs. Too many times Young isn't even trying to penetrate and that is by design by Morris. Young is simply holding his ground waiting for a run his way. IMO that is a stupid way to waste your best pressure defender. Haven't you guys noticed the lack of explosiveness by Donald on a lot of plays? When Morris turns Young and Donald loose they along with Turner get pressure.

Fans shouldn't complain about the lack of pressure until they break down each play. Go ahead and break down 1st downs and watch how the DL plays. I say first down because it's most pronounced and predictable on that down. You will expect the read react style when the NT is aligned in the 0T which is not a penetration alignment.

 

[WestCoastRam]

I don't think the OP understands what the Rams play.

...

 

[JimY53]

IMO the lack of pass rush is by Morris' design. He is definitely prioritizing run on down's one and two. Read / react is not conducive to quick pressure and you can tell they are reading by how both Donald and Young play, particularly on early downs. OCs know how incredibly predictable Morris is so they know their QB will have a lot of time if they throw on first downs and most running downs. Too many times Young isn't even trying to penetrate and that is by design by Morris. Young is simply holding his ground waiting for a run his way. IMO that is a stupid way to waste your best pressure defender. Haven't you guys noticed the lack of explosiveness by Donald on a lot of plays? When Morris turns Young and Donald loose they along with Turner get pressure.

Fans shouldn't complain about the lack of pressure until they break down each play. Go ahead and break down 1st downs and watch how the DL plays. I say first down because it's most pronounced and predictable on that down. You will expect the read react style when the NT is aligned in the 0T which is not a penetration alignment.

I am sorry, but I have shown you that what you are saying is not accurate. And you throw so much out there it has to be taken step by step.

First is the question of 2-gap.

You claim 0-tech is 2-gap. It's not. This isn't 1985.

In the Fangio scheme 0-tech is a RIP/LIZ slant or a two-way go. Or it can and be a call to hold the center so an inside linebacker can blitz. heck in Fisher's scheme, they would have a 0-tech and they would sometimes have a "grizzly" call - which is to strike the center and play the backside of a block. Or for a DT or DE there can be a "heads" call which is heads up strike the OLman and play the inside gap.

Those are a handful of 0-tech or even numbered tech that are not 2-gap.

Fangio's playbooks are online. You can download them a compare them to the film.

Before we can move to nickel and the rush aspects we have to dispel your notion of what the Rams are doing. Morris plays the same scheme as Staley. Staley used Fangio's scheme and Morris uses it with the Rams.

You make all the complaints about Morris but you need to learn the defense a little better--at least the basics. You must realize that saying Morris has some design to not have a pass rush is absurd.

 

[JimY53]

Here is an example of a 2-tech, head up ... not 2-gap. Turner uses a violent club/rip
to take the A-gap in a pass-rush move rush. The same applies to 0-tech
or for 4-tech or 6-tech.

These are not strictly 2-gap alignments.


View: https://x.com/53_jim70721/status/1705327576615440785?s=20

 

[Steve808]

The eagles were spot on in the first quarter against the whiners but they fell apart after that.

 

[JimY53]

The tip off is that the DL is composed of 3 DL (DT Donald, NT Brown, DE Hoecht).

An excellent place to start ... who plays where on the base front - which is what you seem to want to talk about
So, we can go step by step. You got 2 of 3 right and that's good.

However, Hoecht is not a DE in base, he's an OLBer. Here he's away from the TE and on the left side
.
The DE is Williams is base (base is a 3-4, or "tape" or Rams like to use a one ILBer and 2 OLbers in the Penny and 5 DBs

In this case--and it will vary, Williams is a 4i-tech, Brown is shaded strong (1-tech), Donald is a 3-tech

Kobie Turner will spell Brown at nose (and Turner plays DT in nickel--but let's not get ahead)
Williams and Donald can play anywhere from 3 to even a 5, so that would be a 3, 4i, 4, 5

Brown is shaded strong here --- he can play anywhere from 0-tech to 1 to even a 2i.
He charge will vary as to call ... if he's head up he can slant opposite the Rip/Liz call (Fangio's term, other schemes may
use different verbiage for a slant). He an also pick which way he goes. Or some of the other things I mentioned.

So, that's a starting point.

 

[JimY53]

Morris on early downs will align his NT in a 0T, i.e. playing a 2 gap style. The conventional 3-4 is strictly a 2 gap DL where they function as blocker eaters allowing the 4 LBs to make the tackles.

Neither Morris nor Staley ran a "conventional 3-4" and a 0-tech does not mean 2-gap.

You can see that here, from 2020, with SJD and Gaines at 0-tech but slanting. I don't know the call
if it was TITE or TUFF or a call or a two-way go. I just know it's not 2-gap from a 0-tech

So, that should make everyone clear about the NT and enough for the first day. DT and DE can be next
so we can see what they do in base and Penny.

 

[TexasRam]

Neither Morris nor Staley ran a "conventional 3-4" and a 0-tech does not mean 2-gap.

You can see that here, from 2020, with SJD and Gaines at 0-tech but slanting. I don't know the call
if it was TITE or TUFF or a call or a two-way go. I just know it's not 2-gap from a 0-tech

So, that should make everyone clear about the NT and enough for the first day. DT and DE can be next
so we can see what they do in base and Penny.
View attachment 62881

Nice explanations.

I would think most on this board, me included, are not that well informed regarding which assignments the individual positions and formations are dictating.

Is your knowledge based soley on reading the Fangio playbook? Or do you have some insider experience or exposure with the Rams organization?

Just curious, because Isn't it possible Morris could be running the Fangio scheme with his own tweaks?

It seems every new iteration evolves in some ways does it not?

 

[JimY53]

1. Is your knowledge based soley on reading the Fangio playbook? 2. Or do you have some insider experience or exposure with the Rams organization?

3. Just curious, because Isn't it possible Morris could be running the Fangio scheme with his own tweaks?

4. It seems every new iteration evolves in some ways does it not?

1. No. Had to learn the Fango playbook when it became in vogue. Even before was familiar with old school 3-4, 4-3, gap control, 1-gap, 2-gap. But Gap-½ is fairly new. Had to learn more about it. It's kind of a college thing. Georgia's "Mint" front is the same thing. but has different terminology for some of the positions--the linebackers, for instance.

2. No inside information

3. Yes. Always have said Morris has put his stamp on it, just like Staley put his own stamp on it. You are exactly right in fact, Fangio has evolved. Coaches have to based on who they play in the division, personnel, weekly game plans

But that is the case for anyone. Pete Carroll's disciples don't do exactly what he did -- Bradley, Saleh, Quinn, etc ... put their tweaks on things.

Fisher put his tweaks on Buddy Ryan's defense. Eventually married the Bears front with Tampa-2
Lovie put his stamp on Dungy's stuff.

But in the case of the Rams, Morris is running match quarters out of Cover 2/4 shell and rotates into what the call is. Remember Fangio didn't invent a 3-4, didn't invent quarters or even the 5-1 Penny (6-man box gap-1/2 thing people have tried to copy. He just has rules within the defense that are developed to stop explosive plays. It's been found explosive plays are a big factor in winning and losing.

 

[JimY53]

Why would Donald be a DE instead of a DT like he was the last time we were a 4-3?

Most of that is terminology... in Rams scheme in the Penny (5-1) he's a 4i technique just a bit wider than a 3-tech. In the base 3-4 he's almost always a 3-tech ... so he's a DT. When you look at some diagrams some coaches call that position a DE ... but that us usually referred to form 5-tech and higher.

Since 2020, Rams, in the base 3-4 have a nose tackle, one DT and one DE. In the Penny it's a NT and two 4i (whether you call them DTs or DEs is up to you)

Now, nickel--- the more even fronts, 2 guys either side of the center ... Donald is the 3-tch and has been, he's a DT there.

But, in a DL alignment called gold (and probably other variations) there is one DL on one side of center and 3 on the otherside
This is an overload. And there usually a LB in the space between the guy one the "1" side and the "3-man" side.

In this package...Donald DOES play DE. And they usually stunt him inside so he often rushes on a guard anyway. But he can go outside...

Think of DL as to what gap they will attack --- not necessarily by name...

 

[JimY53]

This is very basic and not an exact science in terms of the illustrations. But the explanations
are sound. No way to cover much...there are slants, movements, games, stunts, tons of stuff
within all of these. And in some calls an assignment may change

But there is a little bit of confusion about this with a couple of folks around here.

And this does not even cover much nickel fronts (Rams now usually are a 4-2-5 in essence though their DEs stand up)
So, again, just a starting point for discussion not plenary.

++++++++++++++++++
This is 2-gap, old school, not played these days, really--though you never say never when it comes
to what coaches will do.

Think of Fritz Shumur's 3-4, Or Belichick's or others back in the day

2-gap is 1-gap once the DL sees the flow of the play.
They strike the OL opposite them, and read the blocking patterns and RBs their "keys"
In this case the flow is to the defense's right.
So, the left DE, the head-up 4-tech, strikes plays the B-gap--to his right, the way the flow went
the nose tackle strikes and plays the playside A-gap
the right 4-tech strikes and plays the C-gap.

if the flow were to the defenses left
the the LDE, 4-tech, plays the playside C-gap
the NT plays the playside A-Gap
the RDE plays the backside B-gap.

They play ONE gap a split second after they know where play is going
The Sam and Will do usual things...set edge playside, CBR backside.

Lbers flow to ball, take any inside gap that is threatened or of run is outside
fill in and flow

NOW---there are exceptions. There can be a slant call where there is no reading
it's pure 1-gap. Just because you play a 3-4 as your base, even old-school 2-gap
does not mean you have to play it the same way every time.

Even in Shurmur's day they would not be in 2-gap every time. it could be all three
in 2-gap. 2 of the three DL or 1 in 2-gap or none.

________________


This is what Rams did under say, Phillips or other 3-4 one 1-gap teams.
it's the same as a 4-3 except the personnel is different. But it is more flexible
and out of this you can do a lot. You can see gap assignments in this example

Rams do this NOW as well. Not in the 5-1, but in the 3-4. They have, if I understand it, Gap-½
concept at times. They are getting penetration, one gap, but not going as deep as in gap control or
a 4-3 1-gap that has some overflow.

In the Rams 3-4 under Phillips and now, the NT is not a zero tech, he's shaded one side or the other.

____________________


This is a Schwartz-type Gap control. One man per gap. Uses a DE wide... in a 9-tech

_________________________

This is more of a Fisher 1-gap. Almost everyone has 1 gap but they don't
leverage every gap. There is overlap and some reading by the off-ball linebackers.

it's still one gap but not PURE gap control. there is a difference. There can be a 2-gap
on the backside, away from the play in some calls... just so they don't waste a guy in a "mythical gap"
one that disappears after the snap.

The DE is often a 5-tech and the SAM is the 9-tech. But it can vary

______________________


This is the Staley/Fangio Penny front. Rams use it maybe 20%-25% of the time depending on game. The NT plays one gap based on the call. Sometimes it's toward the play, other times it's away. Sometimes it's a two-way go, his choice. He takes his gap and squeezes/helps/overlaps the gap next to him.

The 4is (DTs or DEs, whatever you want to call them---I call them DTs but Fanio says ends) they have the B=gap and squeeze to overlap and help the NT.

the Sam and Will contain --backside watches for cutbacks, reverses, boots---standard stuff

The one LBer flows to the play, the safety to the side of the flow comes down. The CB forces if he's not run off.

This is one way to illustrate Gap-½, though not perfect--if the NT were called to backside he's take other A-gap and squeeze. It's about overlaps. 6 guys taking the gaps that take 7 in other fronts (including LBers)

Looking at this, could have done better job drawing it.. but oh well.

 

[JimY53]

Not my GIF and it's a little too fast
But good example of SJD, in 2020, playing gap-½

View: https://x.com/53_jim70721/status/1736181128183058903?s=20



you can see the primary gap to his right and the key is him
working back with off arm and winning to make tackle

in this case Kiser is rushing left A-gap and Young looping behind
You can see Aaron Donald head-up on TE and he just swims
him. The LCB fills in the gap

but the main point is being head-up does not automatically
2-gap. Neither SDJ nor AD two gap from head up, nor Brockers
from 4i (not quite head up)

 

[OldSchool]

I am sorry, but I have shown you that what you are saying is not accurate. And you throw so much out there it has to be taken step by step.

First is the question of 2-gap.

You claim 0-tech is 2-gap. It's not. This isn't 1985.

In the Fangio scheme 0-tech is a RIP/LIZ slant or a two-way go. Or it can and be a call to hold the center so an inside linebacker can blitz. heck in Fisher's scheme, they would have a 0-tech and they would sometimes have a "grizzly" call - which is to strike the center and play the backside of a block. Or for a DT or DE there can be a "heads" call which is heads up strike the OLman and play the inside gap.

Those are a handful of 0-tech or even numbered tech that are not 2-gap.

Fangio's playbooks are online. You can download them a compare them to the film.

Before we can move to nickel and the rush aspects we have to dispel your notion of what the Rams are doing. Morris plays the same scheme as Staley. Staley used Fangio's scheme and Morris uses it with the Rams.

You make all the complaints about Morris but you need to learn the defense a little better--at least the basics. You must realize that saying Morris has some design to not have a pass rush is absurd.

He doesn't pay attention to responses unfortunately.

 

[JimY53]

He doesn't pay attention to responses unfortunately.

Any reason? If it's futile, no reason. I did get one response.

The main thing is it's great to say what one thinks about anything, including not liking Morris or anyone--and liking the previous guy.

What is not-so-great is posting poor information as the basis for that opinion. I mean if you are going to hate a guy at least post accurate information.

Even after it has been pointed out that Rams don't 2-gap NT he posted it again. At some point a lack of understanding becomes willful. It means you don't want to increase knowledge.

 

[OldSchool]

Any reason? If it's futile, no reason. I did get one response.

The main thing is it's great to say what one thinks about anything, including not liking Morris or anyone--and liking the previous guy.

What is not-so-great is posting poor information as the basis for that opinion. I mean if you are going to hate a guy at least post accurate information.

Even after it has been pointed out that Rams don't 2-gap NT he posted it again. At some point a lack of understanding becomes willful. It means you don't want to increase knowledge.

We spent what close to 3 years refuting his alleged insider info that the Rams were going to part ways with Rob Havenstein. During that time he was extended and I think made a team captain. He's finally moved on from this. I guess he's just not interested in counter points. You likely were one of the few that he responded to. Every once in a while he'll respond to me but his response usually has nothing to do with the discussion or it completely ignores what you say or show him. Just the way the guy is I guess. The rest of us appreciate your in depth defense posts though.

 

[JimY53]

The rest of us appreciate your in depth defense posts though.

I guess it would be better to start a new thread that just people interested in things I post can go and those not interested can ignore it.

 

[OldSchool]

I guess it would be better to start a new thread that just people interested in things I post can go and those not interested can ignore it.

You do you as I always say But yeah if you want a thread, I thought you started one, or want to change the name of a thread you already have going just @ a mod to change the title and do your thing man.