3-4 or 4-3????

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

JimY53

Pro Bowler
Joined
Nov 20, 2023
Messages
1,451
Name
JY53
Do you think we have the horses to be more unpredictable? Wanna play more man with our corners? Inverted cover -2? Again, think we have the guys to change it up like that? Think we can just install it this week? How about Tuesday? How about over lunch?
and not sure the point. 10 of the 32 teams on bottom right quartile. Unpredictable and "not good".

Is the author suggesting anything from his chart or just reporting what the facts are? I don't even think he's saying "predictable = bad" and "unpredictable = good"

There is a cluster in the middle-left and the Rams are in that 10-team cluster. I don't know the point Menon is making, if any.
 

Merlin

Damn the torpedoes
Rams On Demand Sponsor
ROD Credit | 2023 TOP Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
Messages
39,680
Do you think we have the horses to be more unpredictable? Wanna play more man with our corners? Inverted cover -2? Again, think we have the guys to change it up like that? Think we can just install it this week? How about Tuesday? How about over lunch?
All I care about is the bottom line with a defense. You can do that a bunch of different ways. Complexity and pre/post snap fun and games is a great way to baffle a QB if your DBs can play with discipline. Ours are not anywhere near that level of quality.

Right now that plot shows we play a more basic approach on that spectrum of schematic calls, and we still give up a shit ton of explosive plays. So that demonstrates we need players back there. I doubt more complexity would go well with this group.
 

Merlin

Damn the torpedoes
Rams On Demand Sponsor
ROD Credit | 2023 TOP Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
Messages
39,680
and not sure the point. 10 of the 32 teams on bottom right quartile. Unpredictable and "not good".
It makes sense philosophically that there's going to be a good chunk of teams that try to capitalize on how many poor QBs there are in this league. The types of QBs who turn their back on a defense to take advantage of play action and commence shitting their pants when they see something completely different. Do that right and you can probably write yourself a ticket to the playoffs most seasons.

I'm surprised there are as many teams keeping it simple as there are. Though of course any scheme or approach can work in any era if you have the right players.
 

TexasRam

Legend
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
7,850
Jourdan explained the reasons. My problem is piles and piles of words were written and Jourdan talked on her podcast about it yet people still claim they don't understand why it was happening. The information is available but people.

Another thing that frustrates me, since we are talking about such things. You initially said "Huge 12 yard cushions" then I mentioned that as an exaggeration and you came back with "10-12 yard cushions". That matters to me because it's changing the whole dynamic of a fair and friendly discussion. Had you said "10 yard cushions" I would not have said that was an exaggeration.

The reason I bring it up is that it's why I have to spend my time fighting misinformation. If we could just start with the facts it would be so much easier to discuss things.

But there is a theory behind the Fangio scheme. And off-coverage is part of that, they are playing quarters. And maybe we don't like it but it's the way it is. And it's common to all the teams playing Fangio schemes. Announcers talk about it often, especially Greg Olsen and not just in Rams games. I watch a lot games other than ours and have learned a lot.

I also have shown many times that the defense didn't suddenly change in the 2021 playoffs. People just didn't complain because the Rams won. It's easy enough to see off coverage the majority of the time in the playoffs, the same as in the regular season. I have watched those games a lot. Many times each. There was not more blitzing more press coverage or some radical change. What happened is a handful of players stepped up their game and those guys contributed like they hadn't all year.

It would be easy for a Morris fan to say he schemed up something new, some big change that made a difference, that they were somehow more aggressive. But they weren't. The films show better execution.

I don't think you are from the school of some people (like one particular poster here) who will never give Morris credit for anything. You seem fair. But I am from the school of thought that likes results. And when Morris helped the Rams win a Super Bowl and then people still complained about things it really frustrated me. They (not you) would even deny where the Rams ranked in defense and refused to acknowledge the good.

So, I appreciate your feedback. But I stand by what I've said before. Morris is neither stupid nor cowardly. He's not some genius either. The Rams defense is not a great one but it is not one that ever played at a level that Morris should be fired.

I prefer other defenses but I don't get what I want but I give Morris respect but he was part of why he got a ring.

As to blitzing ... maybe you are right. Or maybe you are wrong. Maybe blitzing more would be a good thing. Or maybe it would be a bad thing. I just don't know what is being used to come to that opinion.

Morris blitzes at about average rate -- high is 40% or so, lo is 15%, Rams around the middle, (Rams top few in NFL in 2021). But you (again) said "low blitz rate". It's not fair that you say "low blitz rate" when it's not a low blitz rate.

Essentially you are saying you prefer a heavy blitzing defense. Okay, fair enough. You maybe want the Rams to blitz at a 30-35-40% rate like the teams that blitz the most do. Maybe you think Rams can play man coverage well enough to blitz more guys from "unexpected packages" but it's possible Morris (and the rest of the defensive staff) doesn't.

One thing I do think is that Morris and his assistants are in a better position to know than me. I can speculate all day long but I'd never know one way or another.
Sorry for changing to 10 yards from 12 on you my man. No bad intentions there. In all honesty, my point was to just find an agreement point for the sake of your defense of huge cushions. I know for a fact there were some 12 yard cushions pre snap and often the cushions were 10 yards as
Well. So for the sake of moving the discussion I dropped the 12 yard argument as it really was a null point. 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 6 I figured would be easier to agree on and discuss.

As stated, there were posts that detailed these cushions and several analysts during the TV broadcasts that were pointing it out. It’s actually a dead topic now because we simply don’t see those cushions any more.

Regarding the blitz subject, I am
Not suggesting Raheem deploys a 40% blitz rate or whatever. My point was on certain 3rd and 4th downs he should deploy it, to keep the QB off balance. I am all for minimizing chunk plays and an over eager blitz package can not only get beat for chunk plays but can become less effective if it’s not used selectively.

Anyways, nice posts and perspectives on Morris implemetations. I would maintain he is doing a solid job with the lack of talent he is working with. I also think some of the explosives are due to players issues (Fuller lack of recovery speed or lacking discipline). But yes, I do see some areas he gets a little predictable which negatively affects the outcome of games at times. But he got the Job done in 2021 during our Suoer Bowl run, so I try to minimize my complaints. Same with Stafford, he was a pick 6 machine falling apart at the end of the season, but come playoffs he was lights out.
 

JimY53

Pro Bowler
Joined
Nov 20, 2023
Messages
1,451
Name
JY53
Sorry for changing to 10 yards from 12 on you my man. No bad intentions there. In all honesty, my point was to just find an agreement point for the sake of your defense of huge cushions. I know for a fact there were some 12 yard cushions pre snap and often the cushions were 10 yards as

I know there were no ill intentions ... I wasn't implying that. I was making a different point about what happened on a regular basis. What happened maybe a few times ... if that ... always isn't the best indicator.

Cushions were more than other teams. The average for the year in 2021 was 8.4 yards ... Staley's was less but not by a lot. So I was only trying to focus on the numbers and what I saw play-in and play-out.

That's all.

I 100% agree you were not changing will any bad intent or anything like that.
 

JimY53

Pro Bowler
Joined
Nov 20, 2023
Messages
1,451
Name
JY53
It makes sense philosophically that there's going to be a good chunk of teams that try to capitalize on how many poor QBs there are in this league. The types of QBs who turn their back on a defense to take advantage of play action and commence shitting their pants when they see something completely different. Do that right and you can probably write yourself a ticket to the playoffs most seasons.

I'm surprised there are as many teams keeping it simple as there are. Though of course any scheme or approach can work in any era if you have the right players.
I don't know why some coaches do what they do. I do know there are NFl axioms that suggest not getting too complex. What the proper level is I don't know.

One axiom is "You cannot be great at everything" and that one pertains to scheme, O or D. Means if you try to do it all, you probably are not going to be great at all of them. You can disguise after the snap like Fangio prefers to disguise presnap, show one thing, play another. Then you can vary fronts and coverages. I think coaches probably do "their thing" and try to be great at what they think they can do and what their guys can play.

I don't have the answer but I also think that Fangio's scheme is harder to pick up on because it always shows the shell and they rotate into cover-3, 4, 6/8 and even a little 2 in the red zone ... so that gives the QB one final read after the snap so some of these guys may be thinking they are doing some form of quarters or something when it may not be.

BUT --- there is no doubt that the so-called "vanilla" theory of Fangio-type stuff does not look different and does look the same presnap, almost every snap.
 

shovelpass

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
4,566
Cody Alexander does put out a coverage disguise chart, using the same data source (PFF). The Rams do disguise coverages more than most teams. These numbers are heading into week 16, he usually puts them out on sunday. Click title for link to tweet.

Coverage Disguise
GCHn0YYW8AAofqH.jpeg


Coverage Selections
GCHlkylXIAAQsB-.jpeg


Blitz/Stunt/Sim Rate
GCHpIUJXgAA3axr.jpeg
 

JimY53

Pro Bowler
Joined
Nov 20, 2023
Messages
1,451
Name
JY53
Rams don't run a lot of Cover-0 but this is a way they do it. They run it from the Shell so the guys
are not mugged up on the line ... but they send 6 rushers --- both OLber and the MIKE but the secondary plays man by matching routes... there is no deep help but presnap it looks like there will be

We can also see the gap assignments... the nose takes 1 gap, not 2 ...



2023-12-30_12-01-06.jpg