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Rams sign OT Cornelius Lucas
- Thread starter ljramsfan
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I thought the logic would be easy to follow, although one could easily disagree. It's not news that Hav has struggled at times, especially in run support. There has been plenty of discussion over the right side of the OL being the weaker link, it's not like I just created this out of thin air. Whether he has been over-compensating for having Brown starting next to him, I don't know, but Hav hasn't had a consistently strong RG playing next to him since he took over. Or, ... are Havenstein's problems his own, is he not getting a good push or pull when required of him, is his footwork solid & consistent ?
Williams was a solid reserve LT in 2015, and injured & IR'd early in 2016. He was brought in by Fisher, but has still managed to play well enough to beat out competitors like Pace Murphy, Michael Dunn & Alex Kozan. If Williams "is barely on the roster right now" as you say, that may indeed be so, but I have no proof of this. The next big tell comes when/if Andrew Donnal shows up or gets IR'd himself. Maybe Donnal, the expected & more probable reserve RT/LG prior to the season beginning beats out Williams, ... or maybe Williams will return to reserve LT, Donnal to RT, and Lucas gets the ax, who knows ?
What we do know is that prior to this season Williams wasn't seen much at RT, so McVay is experimenting with him a bit more than Fisher had, ... whether this is a Williams final opportunity to stay with the team, or to become a candidate for swing OT, or for an increased role at RT, it's all speculation. Either way, I raise the question because Havenstein has shown areas where he struggles, and if Williams taking some rotational snaps helps the Rams, so be it. I'm not saying Williams is a shoe-in replacement by any means, but competition may raise the bar for him while we wait on whatever is to become of Donnal. jmo.
BonifayRam
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Maybe Tron but I would tend to look at this ....that Kromer does not have an all important Swing OT presently to dress on game day.
I have no inside information & just guessing that Andrew Donnal RT/RG must be UN-healthy & slowly trying to get healthy. Donnal has not been seen in TC or Pre season on the field.
LT Darrell Williams can not play RT or we would have seen Williams inserted @ RT early instead of Jamon Brown.So I surmise Kromer is working to find a "stop gap" Swing OT until Donnal get back into playing shape.
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2014 NFL Draft Scouting Report – Cornelius Lucas, OT Kansas State
by Peter Smith3 years agoFollow @_PeteSmith_
Kansas Statehas been back on the map ever since the return of Bill Snyder. Not only have they been much better on the playing field and in the standings but the Wildcats have put some extremely talented players into the NFL Draft. This year, they have a couple of talented prospects but the best of the bunch is likely going to be their massive left tackle,Cornelius Lucas.
In somewhat of a juxtaposition of styles, Lucas has some troubles in run blocking in a system that runs the ball a ton and used the pass almost as a last resort. On the other hand, Lucas is a terrific pass blocker who uses his length and feet to really shut down opponents or least he was last year. For some reason it seems like Lucas is thinking too much this season and it is causing him to get too cute in his footwork and open the door for opponents to get inside of him and playing too tall.
Last year, he was more of a bully and got more physical with opponents while this year, he is working to shield opponents off and will kick slide too far. In addition to getting back to just getting back to the confidence he had last year as a blocker, Lucas needs to work on getting behind his pads as a run blocker and working to refine his hand usage to avoid opponents getting into his body. Lucas looked the part of a first round tackle last year and while he could still end up going that high, he looks more like a second round pick with immense upside as a blind side protector.
Vitals & Build
Lucas is listed at 6’9” 328lbs and is just an enormous human being. He looks great, carries the weight extremely well, and is just a remarkable athlete. Lucas has good strength but can have difficulty showing it because he will have trouble getting leverage. He has great feet and moves well, whether going laterally or moving up the field. While Lucas is going to continue gaining strength, he may want to try to avoid adding much more weight. The main focus for Lucas in addition to just improving his body composition is working to get better and quicker when it comes to bending and getting low. If he can effectively do that, it should unlock a great deal of functional power.
Run Blocking
Lucas has a difficult time when it comes to run blocking. For all of the benefits that come with being 6’9” for the offensive tackle position, it is difficult for Lucas to get behind his pads and get low. Because of his length, when he goes forward, it takes time for him to get low and he makes contact before he is able to get in a position of power. He just takes up a ton of space. In many respects, Lucas is the blocking sled when it comes to run blocking. Opponents are able to get under his pads and cause him problems. Lucas is at his best when he can slide into place and wall off defenders as opposed to trying to launch forward, lock on and drive.
The way Kansas State runs their blocking scheme, there are a lot of times when Lucas bypasses the defensive line and goes right to backer to make his first block. This makes sense from a design point of view because Lucas can easily take on and make blocks at the second level and if the play works as designed, they have a natural lane and a way to get from the second level to the third.
The other way the Wildcats worked around this issue was stepping up and walling off opponents from the side and just sliding up the field. It works and he executes it well, but it is not great for the potential of having Lucas make multiple blocks in the same play. Still, it at least allows him to take one player out of the play.
Having said that, there are times when Lucas is simply too big and too strong regardless of his leverage and can overpower opponents. And the times he is able to get leverage, he can really create space in a hurry. The concern with Lucas is not speed, but rather power and opponents who can create momentum quickly. Nothing would make Lucas happier than an opponent trying to beat him with speed, but when he is tall and gets caught in his body, he can be driven back or knocked off balance. In addition on just trying to do everything he can to improve how well and how quickly he can bend, he just needs to do everything in his power to make sure he can get those long arms on the opponent first.
Along with that, Lucas can move well and he gets to the second level easily and effectively. There are times when he is extremely awkward and seeing someone his size lunge at a linebackeror defensive back and miss is one of the most unathletic looking plays that can happen on a football field. When a player is that size, they just need to get in the way. Lucas is able to help with a double team and land a second block.
Lucas can work to improve how well and quickly he can bend to help him gain leverage so he does not have to use so much strength to dig opponents out, but this is probably always going to be an area where Lucas has difficulty because he is so big. Going to the NFL may actually help him in some respects because in large part, opponents are going to be slightly taller, if he cannot improve how well he can bend, he is going to have to work to overpower opponents quite a bit. Lucas does not play with much of a mean streak and seems satisfied that he has done his job rather than really trying to dominate an opponent and put them into the ground.
Pass Protection
This is where Lucas’s size and length helps him. Lucas can be fantastic pass blocker who slides well and is simply too big for opponents to beat him. He really handles speed rushers well and is extremely comfortable taking away the outside lane, while being light enough on his feet to counter and shut down inside moves. He is extremely light on his feet for his size and while he does not have elite feet, Lucas has feet that are quick and quick enough for his size that he is able to get as far out as needed.
The issue that has shown itself more this year is Lucas sliding out too far and opponents faking up the field and coming underneath him in the C gap next to the left guard. Lucas can often times recover enough to control the play, but there are times when he gets caught working too slow and can end up grabbing the opponent.
Lucas can occasionally have some trouble with power if he gets caught playing too tall, but he does show a good base and he can re-anchor effectively to shut down power moves. When he adjusts his feet and gets low, he is incredibly difficult to move off of his spot. Defenders need to be able to get under his pads and knock him off balance and beat him before he can recover, which is much easier said than done.
Last year, Lucas was playing at a level where he looked like he was ready to step in and play left tackle for an NFL team this Sunday if they needed. This year, he needs to get more physical and just play. His kick slide is more than enough to get out and protect the edge, so if he just eases himself out as needed, he should be perfectly fine.
Lucas also has to work to cut down the times where he gets caught under his pads with power and gets knocked off balance, establishing a better anchor and playing lower. Beyond that, Lucas really makes pass blocking look easy and covers a ton of ground. He just seems to be the type of player that frustrates opponents to no end, because even when he appears to be beaten, he is not. He recovers well and shuts down the play.
Technique
This is the area where Lucas probably needs the most focus of his game when it comes to technique. It is not a matter of him necessarily doing it poorly, but rather it being of such massive importance for him to be successful. As long as he uses his hands well and gets to the opponent before they get to him, he is going to be incredibly difficult to beat. He has only shown vulnerability really when opponents get into his hands, so if he can work to reduce it as much as possible, he will win virtually every matchup he is up against.
Footwork
Lucas’s footwork is great. There will be players with better feet, quicker feet, but for what Lucas needs with his size and length, they are fantastic. His mirror is not as consistent as it was last year, but he clearly demonstrates the ability to do it and just needs to get back to it. Lucas is able to stay under control and balanced easily. In terms of the running game, he is able to attack forward easily and get to the second level without issue. He has not been asked to pull or kick out and lead a toss much, but there is no reason he could not. Those are areas where his leverage will be compromised but he will be able to run a guy over with his momentum.
System Fit
Lucas can play in any system, really, but he might not be perfectly suited for a power team. He is certainly capable of doing it, but he has some trouble generating power quickly at times. Other than that, the system that Lucas fits is the one that needs a blind side protector, which is all of them. His run blocking and finding ways to maximize his ability in that respect are going to be a work in progress but there is little to suggest that he cannot be a plug and play left tackle at the next level because of how well he pass blocks.
NFL Comparison
Lucas is not at the same level of talent to this point, but his game is similar to that of Hall of Famer Jonathan Ogden. Ogden, like Lucas was practically 6’10” at UCLA and like Lucas, was a wall as a pass protector. Ogden was a more accomplished run blocker but much of that came in the NFL when he was with the Baltimore Ravens. They both have incredible athleticism and both face the same issues going into the NFL. This does not mean Lucas will be a Hall of Fame player like Ogden was, but they do have the same type of game. That said, Lucas does possess an awful lot of talent.
Draft Projection
Finding blind side protectors is always a huge priority in the NFL Draft and teams will take a mediocre run blocker if it means getting someone who keeps their quarterback clean. Lucas is an underwhelming run blocker who can get better but he has immense ability in pass pro. Should Lucas be able to get back to being the most consistent pass blocker he showed to be last year, he could still end up being a first round pick due to the demand of the position, but he grades out more like a top 50 pick this season.
https://withthefirstpick.com/2013/1...uting-report-cornelius-lucas-ot-kansas-state/
by Peter Smith3 years agoFollow @_PeteSmith_
Kansas Statehas been back on the map ever since the return of Bill Snyder. Not only have they been much better on the playing field and in the standings but the Wildcats have put some extremely talented players into the NFL Draft. This year, they have a couple of talented prospects but the best of the bunch is likely going to be their massive left tackle,Cornelius Lucas.
In somewhat of a juxtaposition of styles, Lucas has some troubles in run blocking in a system that runs the ball a ton and used the pass almost as a last resort. On the other hand, Lucas is a terrific pass blocker who uses his length and feet to really shut down opponents or least he was last year. For some reason it seems like Lucas is thinking too much this season and it is causing him to get too cute in his footwork and open the door for opponents to get inside of him and playing too tall.
Last year, he was more of a bully and got more physical with opponents while this year, he is working to shield opponents off and will kick slide too far. In addition to getting back to just getting back to the confidence he had last year as a blocker, Lucas needs to work on getting behind his pads as a run blocker and working to refine his hand usage to avoid opponents getting into his body. Lucas looked the part of a first round tackle last year and while he could still end up going that high, he looks more like a second round pick with immense upside as a blind side protector.
Vitals & Build
Lucas is listed at 6’9” 328lbs and is just an enormous human being. He looks great, carries the weight extremely well, and is just a remarkable athlete. Lucas has good strength but can have difficulty showing it because he will have trouble getting leverage. He has great feet and moves well, whether going laterally or moving up the field. While Lucas is going to continue gaining strength, he may want to try to avoid adding much more weight. The main focus for Lucas in addition to just improving his body composition is working to get better and quicker when it comes to bending and getting low. If he can effectively do that, it should unlock a great deal of functional power.
Run Blocking
Lucas has a difficult time when it comes to run blocking. For all of the benefits that come with being 6’9” for the offensive tackle position, it is difficult for Lucas to get behind his pads and get low. Because of his length, when he goes forward, it takes time for him to get low and he makes contact before he is able to get in a position of power. He just takes up a ton of space. In many respects, Lucas is the blocking sled when it comes to run blocking. Opponents are able to get under his pads and cause him problems. Lucas is at his best when he can slide into place and wall off defenders as opposed to trying to launch forward, lock on and drive.
The way Kansas State runs their blocking scheme, there are a lot of times when Lucas bypasses the defensive line and goes right to backer to make his first block. This makes sense from a design point of view because Lucas can easily take on and make blocks at the second level and if the play works as designed, they have a natural lane and a way to get from the second level to the third.
The other way the Wildcats worked around this issue was stepping up and walling off opponents from the side and just sliding up the field. It works and he executes it well, but it is not great for the potential of having Lucas make multiple blocks in the same play. Still, it at least allows him to take one player out of the play.
Having said that, there are times when Lucas is simply too big and too strong regardless of his leverage and can overpower opponents. And the times he is able to get leverage, he can really create space in a hurry. The concern with Lucas is not speed, but rather power and opponents who can create momentum quickly. Nothing would make Lucas happier than an opponent trying to beat him with speed, but when he is tall and gets caught in his body, he can be driven back or knocked off balance. In addition on just trying to do everything he can to improve how well and how quickly he can bend, he just needs to do everything in his power to make sure he can get those long arms on the opponent first.
Along with that, Lucas can move well and he gets to the second level easily and effectively. There are times when he is extremely awkward and seeing someone his size lunge at a linebackeror defensive back and miss is one of the most unathletic looking plays that can happen on a football field. When a player is that size, they just need to get in the way. Lucas is able to help with a double team and land a second block.
Lucas can work to improve how well and quickly he can bend to help him gain leverage so he does not have to use so much strength to dig opponents out, but this is probably always going to be an area where Lucas has difficulty because he is so big. Going to the NFL may actually help him in some respects because in large part, opponents are going to be slightly taller, if he cannot improve how well he can bend, he is going to have to work to overpower opponents quite a bit. Lucas does not play with much of a mean streak and seems satisfied that he has done his job rather than really trying to dominate an opponent and put them into the ground.
Pass Protection
This is where Lucas’s size and length helps him. Lucas can be fantastic pass blocker who slides well and is simply too big for opponents to beat him. He really handles speed rushers well and is extremely comfortable taking away the outside lane, while being light enough on his feet to counter and shut down inside moves. He is extremely light on his feet for his size and while he does not have elite feet, Lucas has feet that are quick and quick enough for his size that he is able to get as far out as needed.
The issue that has shown itself more this year is Lucas sliding out too far and opponents faking up the field and coming underneath him in the C gap next to the left guard. Lucas can often times recover enough to control the play, but there are times when he gets caught working too slow and can end up grabbing the opponent.
Lucas can occasionally have some trouble with power if he gets caught playing too tall, but he does show a good base and he can re-anchor effectively to shut down power moves. When he adjusts his feet and gets low, he is incredibly difficult to move off of his spot. Defenders need to be able to get under his pads and knock him off balance and beat him before he can recover, which is much easier said than done.
Last year, Lucas was playing at a level where he looked like he was ready to step in and play left tackle for an NFL team this Sunday if they needed. This year, he needs to get more physical and just play. His kick slide is more than enough to get out and protect the edge, so if he just eases himself out as needed, he should be perfectly fine.
Lucas also has to work to cut down the times where he gets caught under his pads with power and gets knocked off balance, establishing a better anchor and playing lower. Beyond that, Lucas really makes pass blocking look easy and covers a ton of ground. He just seems to be the type of player that frustrates opponents to no end, because even when he appears to be beaten, he is not. He recovers well and shuts down the play.
Technique
This is the area where Lucas probably needs the most focus of his game when it comes to technique. It is not a matter of him necessarily doing it poorly, but rather it being of such massive importance for him to be successful. As long as he uses his hands well and gets to the opponent before they get to him, he is going to be incredibly difficult to beat. He has only shown vulnerability really when opponents get into his hands, so if he can work to reduce it as much as possible, he will win virtually every matchup he is up against.
Footwork
Lucas’s footwork is great. There will be players with better feet, quicker feet, but for what Lucas needs with his size and length, they are fantastic. His mirror is not as consistent as it was last year, but he clearly demonstrates the ability to do it and just needs to get back to it. Lucas is able to stay under control and balanced easily. In terms of the running game, he is able to attack forward easily and get to the second level without issue. He has not been asked to pull or kick out and lead a toss much, but there is no reason he could not. Those are areas where his leverage will be compromised but he will be able to run a guy over with his momentum.
System Fit
Lucas can play in any system, really, but he might not be perfectly suited for a power team. He is certainly capable of doing it, but he has some trouble generating power quickly at times. Other than that, the system that Lucas fits is the one that needs a blind side protector, which is all of them. His run blocking and finding ways to maximize his ability in that respect are going to be a work in progress but there is little to suggest that he cannot be a plug and play left tackle at the next level because of how well he pass blocks.
NFL Comparison
Lucas is not at the same level of talent to this point, but his game is similar to that of Hall of Famer Jonathan Ogden. Ogden, like Lucas was practically 6’10” at UCLA and like Lucas, was a wall as a pass protector. Ogden was a more accomplished run blocker but much of that came in the NFL when he was with the Baltimore Ravens. They both have incredible athleticism and both face the same issues going into the NFL. This does not mean Lucas will be a Hall of Fame player like Ogden was, but they do have the same type of game. That said, Lucas does possess an awful lot of talent.
Draft Projection
Finding blind side protectors is always a huge priority in the NFL Draft and teams will take a mediocre run blocker if it means getting someone who keeps their quarterback clean. Lucas is an underwhelming run blocker who can get better but he has immense ability in pass pro. Should Lucas be able to get back to being the most consistent pass blocker he showed to be last year, he could still end up being a first round pick due to the demand of the position, but he grades out more like a top 50 pick this season.
https://withthefirstpick.com/2013/1...uting-report-cornelius-lucas-ot-kansas-state/
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Do we have a time-line on when Kromer/McVay actually began practicing with Williams at RT ? It could be so recent that Williams wasn't really considered an option earlier. Williams may be undersized for an ideal starting OL'man under Kromer/McVay, but Sean did mention that he wanted to cross-train some of the reserves, although most of us suspected that would be Brown, Wichmann & Donnall at the time. Lucas seems to be fairly solid in pass-pro, but the right side of the OL may need someone more adept supporting the rush.
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There's got to be a Planet of the Apes joke in there somewhere
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I think these moves and trying to find the right pieces for the oline have a lot more to do with Kromer vs Boudeau than McVay v Fisher.
Hav may have had some problems last year but that was because he was injured from the get and didn't get a chance to recover. His rookie year he was the best player on the OL.
A healthy year for this group and we'll all be very happy with the starting 5 we had opening day.
Hav may have had some problems last year but that was because he was injured from the get and didn't get a chance to recover. His rookie year he was the best player on the OL.
A healthy year for this group and we'll all be very happy with the starting 5 we had opening day.
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Good report.
Maybe Kromer can coach him up. I am starting to feel like Kromer is able to vet these prospects quickly, once he sees them directly. He knows what he wants, and what is fixable, or not. Personally, I have no problem with all the moves we make, and I think it is a product of how McVay values his coaches opinions, and wishes/wants. This empowerment is felt directly, and indirectly, and is part of what is making him a great leader.
I think it uncommon for such a young coach, and may show that McVay is wired a little different from a lot of head coaches. He is unafraid, humble, and not a total control freak. Watching McVay receive the game ball, really showed how much the players have totally bought in. WE NOT ME!
Free agents will want to play for McVay, if he keeps this up.
jjab360
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I don't disagree with much here but if you look at Havenstein in pass protection he's solid there and getting better, but I do wish he could get more push in the run game.
I just haven't seen much from a guy like Williams though and the little I have seen was him struggling against third stringers in preseason games a few times. The one thing I don't see is that rotational snaps on the OL aren't very common though it's not like at receiver or RB. Either one guy is starting or the other is and I just don't see it with Williams, and definitely not enough to mess with the OL continuity.
Just going back with Hav and looking at this last game, this past preseason, and even his rookie season, the footwork is there for a bigger guy, he keeps his guy contained in pass protection, and works within the frame of the PBS and ZBS to the best of his ability. I'm just not buying the narrative.
Brown otoh is a guy I'm a little worried about but I've seen some positive things to offset the bad. The real surprise scapegoat this season is possibly going to be Sullivan. There was very little pressure on Goff this week but the little that was allowed Sully was almost always the culprit.
Soul Surfer
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Looks to me like Kromer's just scrounging around the NFL to find somebody he thinks he can develop.
Sounds like a good plan to me.
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McVay and Snead as a team look like they'll be constantly churning the bottom of the roster and practice squad, which I like very much. Don't think any of these guys have a real shot to stick and matter long term, but that approach not only has a chance of unearthing guys who can boost the depth, but it also keeps everyone mindful (McVay tribute word usage there) of the fact their roster spots are competed for.
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And it shows in the stats, at least with PFF. Sullivan finished dead last in pass blocking (21.5 scoring grade) of the 30 graded Centers. He had a mediocre score of 60.6 for run blocking.
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Nice to be vindicated, I said I thought he was the worst of the OLine against the Colts.
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At the start of TC, Kromer and McVay had Havenstien at RG and Brown at RT, explaining Hav was a better thinker and suited his style of play ( too slow to block edge rushers). Brown has seemed to be the weakest link on the right side.
Might they be exploring options to move Hav back to RG and start a guy like Lucas at RT? Moving Brown to relief?
With all the OL guys coming in for looks, it seems to me they aren't satisfied with the current OL depth.
Might they be exploring options to move Hav back to RG and start a guy like Lucas at RT? Moving Brown to relief?
With all the OL guys coming in for looks, it seems to me they aren't satisfied with the current OL depth.
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Would you welcome Tim Barnes back to start at C OldSchool? :help: I think he's still available.:cheers:
Soul Surfer
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I think it is as simple as that.
Pretty sure they're going to let the offensive line settle down as much as possible as long as we're winning.
If Sullivan gets continually beat in the middle they want to catch Blythe up on what is probably a new offense for him.
And if they have to they might switch Havenstein inside like they tried to do to begin with.
Who knows?
But the best thing is to let them work together for a while to see if they, through continuity and teamwork, can improve as a unit.
Soul Surfer
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I bet we could get Kenny Britt back for a 5th rounder.
pmil66
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Maybe Donnal is not coming back from injury as quickly as anticipated. Or perhaps the Rams are not happen with Brown at RG, and want Donnal to concentrate on the spot if he is healthy, thus giving a need for another RT to be brought in. Do like churning the bottom of the roster, looking for improvement.
Soul Surfer
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Was he even a game day active?
Darrell Williams got some snaps in the last game.
So either Donnal is still injured or Williams has passed him on the depth chart.