Book: Bernie Kosar's Slurred Speech Resulted from Painkillers Browns Gave Him

[moklerman]

I don't think there's any way to interpret "homerism" but as a pejorative. You disagree with other people and rather than relying on an argument to say they're wrong, you slap them with a label (which is in itself the main issue with PC run amok, but I digress).

Well then, you're wrong. Also, I didn't falsely label anyone. I feel that Rams fans were only upset with Kosar because he was bashing Rams players. You say it was the manner in which he made his comments but I don't feel that's the case. It was simply because they were "our guys" IMO.

I never claimed to be the board police. But just as I'm not, you're not either, so you can't tell me not to say something when you go insulting all the fans who disagree with you including me. If you really want to set yourself up with a reputation where people say "Well, he called us homers and said we had our panties in a twist for disagreeing with him, so why should we take anything he says seriously?" then knock yourself out. I don't think that's a good idea, but you have that right.

Please just stick to "you" and it'll all be simpler. Do you fall into the categories of which I spoke? If not, it doesn't apply to you.

What you continue to not get though, and what's at the core of this, is that people on an NFL telecast represent the NFL in general and certain people represent certain teams. As much as you want to think of the Kosar incident as the Browns being a horrible organization, I can guarantee that any team out there would have at least disciplined (remember, Kosar wasn't fired until much later) an announcer over attacking another team. It's essentially a gentlemens' agreement. If an organization makes sure their announcers aren't dogging on another team, they don't have to worry about another team's announcers dogging them.

I think you're confusing things. I don't think the Browns are a horrible organization because of the broadcast, I think they're horrible regardless of the broadcast. But this just goes back to the homogenization and political correctness that I'm talking about. If what Kosar did deserves him to be fired, then the NFL is just one step further away from the game that I used to know.

To me, it's not about whether or not the comments were "that bad". He had no business going there in the first place. And that's why he got in trouble for it. Not because of PC, but because his employer did not want those comments being taken as representing their organization. It's just like how Rush Limbaugh got fired from ESPN because they didn't want him seen as representing their organization anymore.

He had every right to "go there". That's the only reason he's there. And please, Limbaugh got fired because he made racial statements. End of story.

 

[Stranger]

You have to be careful. The bar tender who gives the alcoholic his first beer is he/she responsible? I think all of us have had some kind of pain killers in their lives. In fact I had some after surgery and noticed I was becoming way too comfortable with the pills and stop taking them immediately. People do have a choice in most cases. Bernie made the choice to take it and then made the choice to continue to pursue the drugs instead of getting support to stop. From that point on I believe ownership belongs to Bernie and Bernie alone. Oxy is a powerful drug and I am not arguing that point at all and what we know now it would not be administered today most likely.

I'd say it is more like the bartender given his employee free drugs so that the employee can work hard and longer, therby generating more profit for the bartender, all the while telling the employee that the drugs arer harmless.

 

[Boffo97]

Well then, you're wrong. Also, I didn't falsely label anyone. I feel that Rams fans were only upset with Kosar because he was bashing Rams players. You say it was the manner in which he made his comments but I don't feel that's the case. It was simply because they were "our guys" IMO.

Well, obviously you don't think the label was false, otherwise you wouldn't have said it. The point is that you resorted to labels at all rather than arguments. That's just lazy, and results in arguments which boil down to "You suck!" "No, you suck!"

That said, whether or not Rams fans were unhappy at Kosar for bashing our guys isn't the point. Personally I'm unhappy with Kosar because he dogged our guys AND because he was an unprofessional jackhole. But either way, I didn't get a vote. The Browns decided they didn't want him representing their organization any further. As would any other organization.

Please just stick to "you" and it'll all be simpler. Do you fall into the categories of which I spoke? If not, it doesn't apply to you.

It very arguably does apply to me, because when people trot out the lazy "homer" label, it's generally understood to be applied to everyone who holds a different opinion than the guy who said it.

I think you're confusing things. I don't think the Browns are a horrible organization because of the broadcast, I think they're horrible regardless of the broadcast. But this just goes back to the homogenization and political correctness that I'm talking about. If what Kosar did deserves him to be fired, then the NFL is just one step further away from the game that I used to know.

I don't recall if there was ever a time where team's announcers were allowed to dog on each other. The NFL I remember was about sportsmanship in the end. Calling the opposing players terrible is not sportsmanship.

He had every right to "go there". That's the only reason he's there. And please, Limbaugh got fired because he made racial statements. End of story.

Kosar obviously DIDN'T have every right to "go there". He got fired for it. The reason he was there is to CALL THE FREAKING GAME, not dog on other players. Maybe if he was working for you, he'd have every right to go there since you don't seem to mind, but he was working for an NFL team who did. And every single other NFL team would have done the same thing.

Limbaugh was brought up because you could make that same argument that what he actually said wasn't that bad, but he crossed a line. For him, it was racial statements. For Kosar, it was dogging on the other team. Their respective employers decided they didn't want people who crossed those lines representing them. That's not PC, that's the free market in action.

 

[moklerman]

Well, obviously you don't think the label was false, otherwise you wouldn't have said it. The point is that you resorted to labels at all rather than arguments. That's just lazy, and results in arguments which boil down to "You suck!" "No, you suck!"

That said, whether or not Rams fans were unhappy at Kosar for bashing our guys isn't the point. Personally I'm unhappy with Kosar because he dogged our guys AND because he was an unprofessional jackhole. But either way, I didn't get a vote. The Browns decided they didn't want him representing their organization any further. As would any other organization.

You don't understand or see my argument? You're taking offense to something that isn't there. I didn't just call all Rams fans homers and leave it at that. I've explained myself in a variety of ways. It seems very much like it is you that is blindly applying a description of something that isn't actually there.

It very arguably does apply to me, because when people trot out the lazy "homer" label, it's generally understood to be applied to everyone who holds a different opinion than the guy who said it.

Yet, you've said yourself you took offense to Kosar's comments because they were about Rams.

I don't recall if there was ever a time where team's announcers were allowed to dog on each other. The NFL I remember was about sportsmanship in the end. Calling the opposing players terrible is not sportsmanship.

Now it's sportsmanship? Why would commentators need to be good sports? They aren't competing.

Kosar obviously DIDN'T have every right to "go there". He got fired for it. The reason he was there is to CALL THE FREAKING GAME, not dog on other players. Maybe if he was working for you, he'd have every right to go there since you don't seem to mind, but he was working for an NFL team who did. And every single other NFL team would have done the same thing.

No, he didn't actually get fired. Not by the tv station and not by the Browns. And no, he's not there to call the game, he's there to offer color commentary. As in, opinions. The play-by-play announcer is there to call the game.

Limbaugh was brought up because you could make that same argument that what he actually said wasn't that bad, but he crossed a line. For him, it was racial statements. For Kosar, it was dogging on the other team. Their respective employers decided they didn't want people who crossed those lines representing them. That's not PC, that's the free market in action.

You've certainly got an interesting slant on things. Do you actually believe the market isn't based on PC right now? Politics, business, entertainment...it's ALL based on PC. Let's also not forget that Kosar was reprimanded by the Philbin/Cosell regime which has also been fired. WKRC President also has an open offer to Kosar for an expanded role beyond the 4 preseason games that he's called the last 7 years.
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/berni...t-the-stuff-he-said-last-year-about-the-rams/
“The goal both for the Browns and for Channel 3 is for Bernie to have a bigger role in all of the new Browns programming that’s being done, meaning TV, radio, and on-line. It can be a much more valuable role and will enable him to stay involved for a larger part of the season,” Spectorsky said. “The Browns and I met personally with Bernie and talked to him about all of that. It’s in Bernie’s hands and he knows exactly what we’re talking about. There’s lots of room for discussion for his roles in the upcoming season and we hope he’ll decide to remain an integral part of the new programming efforts across multiple platforms.”

 

[Boffo97]

You don't understand or see my argument? You're taking offense to something that isn't there. I didn't just call all Rams fans homers and leave it at that. I've explained myself in a variety of ways. It seems very much like it is you that is blindly applying a description of something that isn't actually there.

If you presented the same argument without the name calling label, I would have still disagreed, but I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The label actually diminishes your argument, and IMO would be the equivalent of me posting that you weren't a real Rams fan for your opinion. Neither has a place here because they're attacking the person rather than the argument.

Yet, you've said yourself you took offense to Kosar's comments because they were about Rams.

Still not relevant. Even if it was the Rams announcers dogging some other team, I'd still say that was unprofessional, even if I agreed with what was said. And, as I said, I didn't get a vote anyway.

Now it's sportsmanship? Why would commentators need to be good sports? They aren't competing.

Because in this case they represent the team which is competing because they're an employee of the team. I am honestly baffled about how you keep missing this.

No, he didn't actually get fired. Not by the tv station and not by the Browns. And no, he's not there to call the game, he's there to offer color commentary. As in, opinions. The play-by-play announcer is there to call the game.

He didn't get fired at the time, no. He was disciplined. He got fired later and the Rams game was pointed out as a main reason why.

And, again, obviously he was NOT there to dog on the other team because the people who employed him disciplined him for it. He's there to offer commentary ON THE GAME. Not the players, at least not to the extent of saying their families would be ashamed of them.

You've certainly got an interesting slant on things. Do you actually believe the market isn't based on PC right now? Politics, business, entertainment...it's ALL based on PC. Let's also not forget that Kosar was reprimanded by the Philbin/Cosell regime which has also been fired. WKRC President also has an open offer to Kosar for an expanded role beyond the 4 preseason games that he's called the last 7 years.
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/berni...t-the-stuff-he-said-last-year-about-the-rams/
“The goal both for the Browns and for Channel 3 is for Bernie to have a bigger role in all of the new Browns programming that’s being done, meaning TV, radio, and on-line. It can be a much more valuable role and will enable him to stay involved for a larger part of the season,” Spectorsky said. “The Browns and I met personally with Bernie and talked to him about all of that. It’s in Bernie’s hands and he knows exactly what we’re talking about. There’s lots of room for discussion for his roles in the upcoming season and we hope he’ll decide to remain an integral part of the new programming efforts across multiple platforms.”

Whether the market is dominated by PC think (which I agree with you to a certain degree on) or not, this is certainly not the issue to raise the battle flag on. An employee crossed the line to making it personal about the other team's players personally when that wasn't his job. His employer decided that was unacceptable and disciplined him. No PC there at all IMO.

 

[Alan]

moklerman wanting informed opinion:
I'm still a bit surprised at the lengths some fans will take homerism. Bernie didn't say anything that I didn't agree with. Clemens and the WR's all sucked and have sucked for a while. No reason to crucify the guy for telling it like it is. I'd much rather hear some real opinions from a color-announcer, even if I don't agree with them, than say, what Brian Billick offers.

I find myself in total agreement with what you said here and I'll just take it a step further. For better or worse, Bernie is one of our local reporters. I rarely find myself in agreement with what he says but at his worst, he's more informed and tuned into the Rams than any of the national talking heads. If you don't hear both sides of an argument, how can you make an intelligent informed opinion about the subject? We already have enough people who live in a bubble where only one side of the argument is heard.

And yes, I understand you're talking about a different Bernie but the principle is the same.

 

[Boffo97]

I find myself in total agreement with what you said here and I'll just take it a step further. For better or worse, Bernie is one of our local reporters. I rarely find myself in agreement with what he says but at his worst, he's more informed and tuned into the Rams than any of the national talking heads. If you don't hear both sides of an argument, how can you make an intelligent informed opinion about the subject? We already have enough people who live in a bubble where only one side of the argument is heard.

We're talking about Bernie Kosar, nor Bernie Miklasz.

 

[moklerman]

If you presented the same argument without the name calling label, I would have still disagreed, but I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The label actually diminishes your argument, and IMO would be the equivalent of me posting that you weren't a real Rams fan for your opinion. Neither has a place here because they're attacking the person rather than the argument.

It isn't name calling, it's descriptive. You keep calling it a label when in fact, it's an adverb. You've admitted to it yourself. You're offended because they were your guys, regardless of the merit of the criticism. That's homerism.

Still not relevant. Even if it was the Rams announcers dogging some other team, I'd still say that was unprofessional, even if I agreed with what was said. And, as I said, I didn't get a vote anyway.

It's absolutely relevant, it's the whole point in fact. My whole point, anyway. Which is that the Rams fans who were...ARE still offended by and and passionately dislike Kosar, do so because he was unabashedly critical of Rams players, not because he was unprofessional.

Because they represent the teams which are competing. I am honestly baffled about how you keep missing this.

Sportsmanship has nothing to do with it. The commentators(or anyone else connected to the team in some way) don't have any impact or effect on the game.

He didn't get fired at the time, no. He was disciplined. He got fired later and the Rams game was pointed out as a main reason why.

No, he got taken off of the preseason broadcasts. Disciplined, but not fired. But, what does it say about the Browns that they a) are keeping him if his comments were so egregious and b) that they replaced him with Solomon Wilcotts(a former Bengal and Steeler)?

And, again, obviously he was NOT there to dog on the other team because the people who employed him disciplined him for it. He's there to offer commentary ON THE GAME. Not the players.

That doesn't make sense and it isn't true.

Whether the market is dominated by PC think (which I agree with you to a certain degree on) or not, this is certainly not the issue to raise the battle flag on. An employee crossed the line to making it personal about the other team's players personally when that wasn't his job. His employer decided that was unacceptable and disciplined him. No PC there at all IMO.

But he wasn't making it personal. He didn't speak about anyone personally. He spoke about them professionally and their ability to perform. Again, this is the same employer who hired Philbin and Cossel and fired both of them after one year. Basing your opinion of the situation on how the Browns are reacting is very shaky ground.

 

[PhxRam]

If the Browns organization gave this to him during his playing days, then just about everything that's happened in Bernie's life is explainable and understandable.

So now you are telling me there is no such thing as personal responsibility?

Must be nice to ingest a bunch of drugs and then blame your problems on the world.

You will have to excuse me while I go get fucked up.

 

[Boffo97]

It isn't name calling, it's descriptive. You keep calling it a label when in fact, it's an adverb. You've admitted to it yourself. You're offended because they were your guys, regardless of the merit of the criticism. That's homerism.

I'm only going to quote this, because the rest of it, fine we disagree.

Calling people "homer" isn't descriptive no matter how true you think it is. It's bullshit. And if I wanted to see that bullshit, I'd still be reading Ram Stalk. I am asking you, fan to fan, to keep that bullshit off of here. You are more than capable of making arguments without having to label those you disagree with as a crutch to that argument.

Also, I did say repeatedly that I was unhappy with the comments both because they were against my boys AND they were unprofessional, and that if a Rams announcer did the same thing to another team, I'd still think they were unprofessional.

 

[moklerman]

So now you are telling me there is no such thing as personal responsibility?

Must be nice to ingest a bunch of drugs and then blame your problems on the world.

You will have to excuse me while I go get fucked up.

C'mon, if you're a player and your team doctors are giving you drugs that they say are okay, you don't think there's some room for victimization? A lot of players were lied to and put in harm's way. That's the part of these lawsuits that are supportable IMO. Yeah, snorting coke until you're broke and then blaming everyone else is one thing. Trusting your team and it's doctors so you can get back on the field is something else.

 

[moklerman]

I'm only going to quote this, because the rest of it, fine we disagree.

Calling people "homer" isn't descriptive no matter how true you think it is. It's bullcrap. And if I wanted to see that bullcrap, I'd still be reading Ram Stalk. I am asking you, fan to fan, to keep that bullcrap off of here. You are more than capable of making arguments without having to label those you disagree with as a crutch to that argument.

Also, I did say repeatedly that I was unhappy with the comments both because they were against my boys AND they were unprofessional, and that if a Rams announcer did the same thing to another team, I'd still think they were unprofessional.

So if I use the word biased or prejudiced toward the Rams, you'd be okay with it? You just don't like the term homerism?

You apparently did a google search on the definition:
...having a bias toward your hometown team or toward the team for which you play/used to play.

Is that really so offensive or inaccurate to you? I don't get it.

 

[Boffo97]

So if I use the word biased or prejudiced toward the Rams, you'd be okay with it? You just don't like the term homerism?

I think arguments should be made on whatever subject is being discussed, not perceived flaws of those who are arguing it.

 

[moklerman]

I think arguments should be made on whatever subject is being discussed, not perceived flaws of those who are arguing it.

Okay, but it's you that considers homerism a flaw, not me. I have a real strong bias toward the Rams. I just don't get venomous toward someone for being critical of them, especially if I agree with the criticism.

 

[PhxRam]

C'mon, if you're a player and your team doctors are giving you drugs that they say are okay, you don't think there's some room for victimization? A lot of players were lied to and put in harm's way. That's the part of these lawsuits that are supportable IMO. Yeah, snorting coke until you're broke and then blaming everyone else is one thing. Trusting your team and it's doctors so you can get back on the field is something else.

I am finding it EXTREMELY hard to believe that team Drs didnt also warn him/them of the potential side effects of taking said drug.

Does everyone now just put blind faith in what everyone else says?

 

[Boffo97]

Okay, but it's you that considers homerism a flaw, not me. I have a real strong bias toward the Rams. I just don't get venomous toward someone for being critical of them, especially if I agree with the criticism.

If you're throwing that label towards them, of course you consider it a flaw at least where that argument is concerned, because otherwise you wouldn't be using it to boost your argument.

I can't understand why you can't just leave it at "I don't think he said anything all that bad" without having to make it about other fans by labeling them.

As mentioned before, if I had countered by saying you weren't really a Rams fan if you had that opinion, how would that be anything but making the argument about the other person either?

 

[moklerman]

I am finding it EXTREMELY hard to believe that team Drs didnt also warn him/them of the potential side effects of taking said drug.

Does everyone now just put blind faith in what everyone else says?

Maybe it was blind faith, maybe it wasn't. But medical information wasn't as easy to come by back in the '80's so I can see how it might be a tad more difficult to research what one was being given. Also, I think it's a pretty difficult thing to be an athlete and 2nd guess your medical/training staff.

 

[moklerman]

If you're throwing that label towards them, of course you consider it a flaw at least where that argument is concerned, because otherwise you wouldn't be using it to boost your argument.

I can't understand why you can't just leave it at "I don't think he said anything all that bad" without having to make it about other fans by labeling them.

As mentioned before, if I had countered by saying you weren't really a Rams fan if you had that opinion, how would that be anything but making the argument about the other person either?

Because you're not giving a reason for why you don't think I'm a Rams fan. You're just throwing it out there to be spiteful(I guess).

And again, you keep saying I'm labeling people without justification when it's the exact opposite. Unless you want to show me all the throngs of fans who were big Kellen Clemens fans and who also felt the WR corps was playing well and not dropping passes. Otherwise, I think it's very reasonable to assume that fans, such as yourself, were just pissed at Kosar for bagging on the Rams.

 

[PhxRam]

Also, I think it's a pretty difficult thing to be an athlete and 2nd guess your medical/training staff.

They do it all the time. We see athletes routinely seek out a second opinion from a physician outside the team facility.

 

[Boffo97]

Because you're not giving a reason for why you don't think I'm a Rams fan. You're just throwing it out there to be spiteful(I guess).

And again, you keep saying I'm labeling people without justification when it's the exact opposite. Unless you want to show me all the throngs of fans who were big Kellen Clemens fans and who also felt the WR corps was playing well and not dropping passes. Otherwise, I think it's very reasonable to assume that fans, such as yourself, were just pissed at Kosar for bagging on the Rams.

It doesn't matter whether or not you THINK you have a reason for it, which is why you keep misstating what I'm saying as labeling without justification (which you don't have, but that's not relevant to what's really being said here.)

The rule here is that arguments are not supposed to be about other posters. No matter how much justification you think you have for it, calling other people homers is making the argument about another poster. Whether or not someone is a homer is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

But I'm tired of arguing this, so if you still refuse to get it, it doesn't seem anything I say will make a difference.