A few observations..... Boras/Keenum - Cignetti/Foles & OLINE

[nighttrain]

Good thread @CoachO

I like what we have right now. Maybe some see a lack of depth and ability but I see a lack of good ole playing time and playing together as a unit. I think we have some real studs in the making along this line and that we haven't seen but a small portion of their future as a unit. I'm sure there are positions we could improve upon. But what team can't say that? Maybe we do need to draft more O-linemen in the upcoming draft but I personally don't consider it a high priority whereas I have thought it was one of our highest priorities in the past.

I also think GRob gets way too much crap thrown on him even though I will admit that I haven't liked what I have seen in quite a few games. Part of the problem seems to be that he is an attention magnet - some of his doing and some not. I heard the announcers Sunday bag on him on a play that had zero to do with him. I think a lot of fans do that as well. GRob may not be the next Orlando but he is not near as bad as some seem to want to paint him.

As far as Barnes goes, we may be able to improve on him but we could certainly do worse. I really like the way he stays in pursuit of the play. It is that desire and effort that resulted in the two recovered fumbles. Without that, we lose both of those fumbles. And this is not to say that those two plays are enough of a body of work. They are however, perfect examples of how he plays the game. Give me 5 guys on the line with his level of talent and we have a pretty damn good O-line.

In the long run, I think we have both a pretty good O-line in the making along with pretty good depth and they are only going to get better. Havenstein seems to be talented, relentless, and smart. GRob is a little slow in the uptake but appears to be getting it. Brown is IMO a stud in the making. Reynolds has been pretty decent. And Barnes after a couple of bad games has really become a nice center. I realize it is hard to rely on Saffold but his previously injured and operated on shoulder was not the problem this last time and by accounts I read, it is stronger than the original. Is it possible that the recently operated on shoulder has the same result? Dunno. If it does though, Saffold is not exactly chopped liver. Add to this, back-ups in Donnal, Wichmann, and Battle and I think we have the ingredients of a pretty good O-line with depth.

To me this says that we should go after skill players. I'm in the camp that says to go after a #1 WR and QB. I think Case is a good one to keep as a back-up and I want to see what Mannion can do. If the Rams think one of the QBs is an upgrade early in the draft then I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the best WR in the draft than a QB as I think that is the biggest missing piece right now.

I think Case can manage the offense and make quite a few plays while we groom Mannion. I like what I see in our young O-line. We have a stud RB and good back-ups. We have a gadget/#3WR/PR in Austin that can score from anywhere. We could hold onto Britt and/or Quick as depth but I think Marquez is a player. Welker could have another year in him as well. To me, a real playmaking WR would make this offense pretty tough to handle for opposing defenses.

I'm digressing from the O-line subject of the thread but what I see is an O-line that gives us the ability to target the next big hole.

"In the long run, I think we have both a pretty good O-line in the making along with pretty good depth and they are only going to get better. Havenstein seems to be talented, relentless, and smart. GRob is a little slow in the uptake but appears to be getting it. Brown is IMO a stud in the making. Reynolds has been pretty decent. And Barnes after a couple of bad games has really become a nice center. I realize it is hard to rely on Saffold but his previously injured and operated on shoulder was not the problem this last time and by accounts I read, it is stronger than the original. Is it possible that the recently operated on shoulder has the same result? Dunno. If it does though, Saffold is not exactly chopped liver. Add to this, back-ups in Donnal, Wichmann, and Battle and I think we have the ingredients of a pretty good O-line with depth."

agree completely
train

 

[RamFan503]

I'm digressing from the O-line subject of the thread but what I see is an O-line that gives us the ability to target the next big hole.

Oops. I guess this thread was not about O-line necessarily. I DO know I agreed with most of the observations in the OP. The part about execution is a big one and shouldn't be overlooked IMO. I'm not thinking anyone is mistaking Case for a franchise type QB but he is executing better and thus the offense is making a few more plays when it needed them. His numbers seem pretty pedestrian - probably because they are - but the difference of a few drive extending plays, catching a couple receivers in stride, a couple more 3rd down conversions per game might have actually put us in the playoffs.

 

[nighttrain]

I'm real curious where Mannion fits in next year, if we draft a QB early he was a wasted pick, but if he can beat out Caseillowfight:ball::santa:
train

 

[CoachO]

I'm real curious where Mannion fits in next year, if we draft a QB early he was a wasted pick, but if he can beat out Caseillowfight:ball::santa:
train

I'd be shocked to see them give up on Mannion already. This was never meant to be anything more than a redshirt year for him.

They invested a 3rd round pick on him. And to me, he was a big reason they only extended Foles two years. And by most accounts can walk away after next with virtually no financial repercussions.

Aside from the physical attributes Mannion brings, IMO the biggest intangible is his intelligence. This is not going to be a case of a young QB who takes forever to "learn" the system.

It would shock me if he isn't given every opportunity to compete from day one moving into the offseason.

 

[nighttrain]

I'd be shocked to see them give up on Mannion already. This was never meant to be anything more than a redshirt year for him.

They invested a 3rd round pick on him. And to me, he was a big reason they only extended Foles two years. And by most accounts can walk away after the second with virtually no financial repercussions.

Aside from the physical attributes Mannion brings, IMO the biggest intangible is his intelligence. This is not going to be a case of a young QB who takes forever to "learn" the system.

It would shock me if he isn't given every opportunity to compete from day one moving into the offseason.

Be very cool if you are correct, liked what i saw of him at Oregon
train

 

[jrry32]

I'd be shocked to see them give up on Mannion already. This was never meant to be anything more than a redshirt year for him.

They invested a 3rd round pick on him. And to me, he was a big reason they only extended Foles two years. And by most accounts can walk away after next with virtually no financial repercussions.

Aside from the physical attributes Mannion brings, IMO the biggest intangible is his intelligence. This is not going to be a case of a young QB who takes forever to "learn" the system.

It would shock me if he isn't given every opportunity to compete from day one moving into the offseason.

I hate speaking bad of a Ram but I don't get the Mannion love. I think he has a future here no matter what. But, imo, the physical attributes aren't that impressive and I was not impressed with his on the field abilities in college.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

We were rough on Jenkins for his first three years for his mental lapses in the secondary and biting on plays he shouldn't leaving his guy open. Enter year 4 and he has matured into a great CB. The physical aspects are there for Robinson, he just needs to mature. He would be a college senior had he stayed in school. He needs to mature his game. That may never happen. Time will tell. It's too early to bail on him though. He was a raw project when drafted and this slow trajectory should have been expected.

And he stepped it up in his contract year. Seems his motivation is more about money than just wanting to do the best he possibly can. That being said I think they need to franchise him or sign him because I have my doubts about Gaines being back for the start of the season. Even if he is he is not as good as JJ when JJ is good.

The price for Tim Barnes went up significantly after this year. He will sign a nice free agent contract with someone. You center "experts"make me laugh.

I don't think the price went up all that much. He has surely improved over the course of the season. There still were many many times he was pushed backwards or missed his blocks. Is he learning? Sure but just how good can you expect him to get? League average is about it IMO. There are no elite qualities about his game. Do the Rams have to cut him? No. He is doing well enough, but he aint no Rodney Hudson.

Kinda makes me wonder if all the people who claim he needs to be replaced have watched other centers game in and game out. Not sure what sort of expectations people have regarding the position.

Barnes justified being named the starting Center and was arguably the most consistent player on the unit throughout the season.

I agree completely with you that his price tag went up. And given how he performed, IMO the Rams will make a big mistake letting him walk. Especially if Rhaney is plan B.

I agree that right now he is the best Center on the team. But again.........he isn't Rodney Hudson, who was flat out dominant for the Raiders and enormously upgraded their Oline. However, Barnes is giving the Rams more than their money's worth.

Average? I disagree with your assessment by saying he has been average. Given the hand he was dealt, playing along side six different guards, including Donnal and Rhaney who were BOTH lost, I think Barnes has been better than average.

He was good to very good in the early part of the season (when both Brown & Saffold were still healthy). He has been better than average the past month with the same line mates (Wichmann & Reynolds) settling in. As Wichmann has gotten better, so has the entire unit. Including Barnes.

When forced to play next to raw rookies (Donnal, Rhaney and Wichmann early on) Barnes "struggled". How much of that was him trying to cover for the mistakes of others?

As a first year starter, they could have done worse. IMO, he is only going to get better as the others around him improve right along with him.

I thought he was much worse to bad in the early part of the season and started to get it in the middle of the season and his best game was the Seattle game, and it was a damn good one for Barnes. Can he keep up progressing? That is the million dollar.......or in his case 5 million dollar question.

I'd be shocked to see them give up on Mannion already. This was never meant to be anything more than a redshirt year for him.

They invested a 3rd round pick on him. And to me, he was a big reason they only extended Foles two years. And by most accounts can walk away after next with virtually no financial repercussions.

Aside from the physical attributes Mannion brings, IMO the biggest intangible is his intelligence. This is not going to be a case of a young QB who takes forever to "learn" the system.

It would shock me if he isn't given every opportunity to compete from day one moving into the offseason.

I agree. I want a top QB in the draft. A guy with elite skills but I don't think Fisher and Snead will push for one. If Lynch falls or Wentz is there, then maybe but like you said they invested a third rounder in Mannion. Unless they saw some real bad signs in practices, why would they give up on him. Or.....they could still draft a supposed stud and develop both. Down the road having a top QB and a good QB as the backup wouldn't be a bad thing. They could even trade him A La Kolb and turn a profit.

I hate speaking bad of a Ram but I don't get the Mannion love. I think he has a future here no matter what. But, imo, the physical attributes aren't that impressive and I was not impressed with his on the field abilities in college.

I know you don't like Mannion. You have stated it plenty. However nobody liked Brady. His combine was laughable. Maybe there is more to him than meets the eye. I am right about a good share of draft picks and like everyone am wrong about some others. Who's to say that Mannion couldn't be a surprise and play well. Nobody thought Warner could, or Brady, or Romo. I guess we will find out in the coming draft if they think Mannion is their future or not.

 

[RamFan503]

I hate speaking bad of a Ram but I don't get the Mannion love. I think he has a future here no matter what. But, imo, the physical attributes aren't that impressive and I was not impressed with his on the field abilities in college.

Well I'm a little biased living 45 minutes up the road from where he played his college ball but I just don't see the same problems you see. He might tend to wind up on some passes but he also has shown the ability to shorten his motion when needed. Do you remember seeing a bunch of strip sacks when he was in the pocket? I don't.

He also had very little talent around him if you take out one year from Wheaton and Cooks for a couple years a piece. His senior year he had virtually no skill players on offense and a pathetic O-line. And still he became the most prolific passer in Pacific Conference history. When you consider what has come out of the Pac, that is not a small feat.

I'm not saying he is a sure fire QB talent but when I compare him to the 2016 QB class, I think he holds up pretty well. Given the choices, Mannion looks like a pretty good option having a year on the sidelines, NFL weight room, NFL coaches, and some pro reps compared to any of the 2016 QBs out of college. If you consider that Mannion love then so be it. I tend to think of it more as comparing what is available and what is our best course of action. To me it seems that Mannion plus a top receiver and some other pieces is potentially our best option for the future. Case can be a very good back-up and if Mannion is the guy I think he can be, that allows us to not have 3 roster spots tied up at the QB position.

Ultimately I think the coaches are going to know if Mannion is better than what they see in the draft. I know that many don't think Fish and Snead have the ability to discern that but I suppose we'll see. I also seem to have more faith in them than most here as well. Guess I just suck at evaluating.

 

[CoachO]

I hate speaking bad of a Ram but I don't get the Mannion love. I think he has a future here no matter what. But, imo, the physical attributes aren't that impressive and I was not impressed with his on the field abilities in college.

Seems we don't agree on much today. I'm basing my thoughts on Mannion on what I watched throughout training camp. He just has something about him that stuck out to me.

I mentioned coming out of the preseason that the sooner he is elevated to the #2 the better. Now we go into next season and IMO he will be given every chance to compete for the starters job. Mostly due to the implosion of Foles.

I like what Keenum has shown this far. But I think Mannion offers more upside. And I don't see them bailing on him this soon.

What I don't get is how so many (not you specifically) can make any kind of evaluation without ever watching him (or anyone else) play.

Most don't get to see them in practice (outside of camp), so they just make assumptions. More often than not guys like Mannion are out of sight out of mind until the these type of conversations.

 

[MountainRam]

Seems we don't agree on much today. I'm basing my thoughts on Mannion on what I watched throughout training camp. He just has something about him that stuck out to me.

I mentioned coming out of the preseason that the sooner he is elevated to the #2 the better. Now we go into next season and IMO he will be given every chance to compete for the starters job. Mostly due to the implosion of Foles.

I like what Keenum has shown this far. But it think Mannion offers more upside. And I don't see them bailing on him this soon.

What I don't get is how so many (not you specifically) can make any kind of evaluation without ever watching him (or anyone else) play.

Most don't get to see them in practice (outside of camp), so they just make assumptions. More often than not guys like Mannion are out of sight out of mind until the these type of conversations.

Coach O, Based on your thoughts it appears Keenum and Mannion will be competing for starting job in 2016. This means it will be a surprise if they spend a high draft pick for a QB. Comments?

 

[RamFan503]

I agree. I want a top QB in the draft. A guy with elite skills but I don't think Fisher and Snead will push for one. If Lynch falls or Wentz is there, then maybe but like you said they invested a third rounder in Mannion. Unless they saw some real bad signs in practices, why would they give up on him. Or.....they could still draft a supposed stud and develop both. Down the road having a top QB and a good QB as the backup wouldn't be a bad thing. They could even trade him A La Kolb and turn a profit.

See - I don't follow in this rigidity many cast on Fish and company. They used a 3rd on Mason and then grabbed Gurley though injured. They saw far better talent and even though they had used a higher pick than they did on Mannion, they pulled the trigger on Gurley. The idea that they used a 3rd on Mannion and thus would not use a first on a QB if they saw one as worthy just doesn't add up to me. If there is a QB they feel is worthy and the price is not too steep to even move up to get him, I think they will go for it and we will head into the season with Case, Mannion, and draftee at the QB position. If not however, I am ok with a Keenum/Mannion combination - especially if we grab a big time WR.

 

[CoachO]

Coach O, Based on your thoughts it appears Keenum and Mannion will be competing for starting job in 2016. This means it will be a surprise if they spend a high draft pick for a QB. Comments?

I agree with this. I don't see them drafting another QB.

Someone mentioned in the Keenum thread, that they could keep Foles ($$$) and Keenum would be the odd man out.

Thats the only scenario I see them drafting a QB. But if that's the case they'd be all but rolling the dice that Mannion will be ready. Or God forbid they think they can salvage Foles.

IMO, they find another vet to bring in as insurance (Sanchez type) and basically take the same approach as they did with A. Davis last preseason. Either Foles or whatever vet it is wins the roster spot.

I just don't see any of the QBs coming out being a better prospect than Mannion or Keenum in the immediate future. And face it. This team is ready now. They can't afford to waste any more time hoping they find lightning in a bottle at QB.

 

[Akrasian]

Right now the Rams are in position for the #18 pick in the draft. That means that in order to get a high enough pick for the top one or two QBs, at least they would need to throw in both seconds., and maybe more. That's to get somebody who is far from a sure thing, and who is unlikely to be overly productive in 2016 at least. IF they feel Mannion has progressed, they could easily feel that the Rams would be better off drafting another lineman high, another receiver or two, or maybe fill a hole from whomever they lose in free agency on defense.

The window for their defense is short - can the team really trade away most of their draft for a QB who isn't likely to be the best option for 2016?

Now, if a better vet becomes available, I could see trading a pick for him. I just don't know who that would be.

 

[blackbart]

Well I'm a little biased living 45 minutes up the road from where he played his college ball but I just don't see the same problems you see. He might tend to wind up on some passes but he also has shown the ability to shorten his motion when needed. Do you remember seeing a bunch of strip sacks when he was in the pocket? I don't.

He also had very little talent around him if you take out one year from Wheaton and Cooks for a couple years a piece. His senior year he had virtually no skill players on offense and a pathetic O-line. And still he became the most prolific passer in Pacific Conference history. When you consider what has come out of the Pac, that is not a small feat.

I'm not saying he is a sure fire QB talent but when I compare him to the 2016 QB class, I think he holds up pretty well. Given the choices, Mannion looks like a pretty good option having a year on the sidelines, NFL weight room, NFL coaches, and some pro reps compared to any of the 2016 QBs out of college. If you consider that Mannion love then so be it. I tend to think of it more as comparing what is available and what is our best course of action. To me it seems that Mannion plus a top receiver and some other pieces is potentially our best option for the future. Case can be a very good back-up and if Mannion is the guy I think he can be, that allows us to not have 3 roster spots tied up at the QB position.

Ultimately I think the coaches are going to know if Mannion is better than what they see in the draft. I know that many don't think Fish and Snead have the ability to discern that but I suppose we'll see. I also seem to have more faith in them than most here as well. Guess I just suck at evaluating.

I'm right there with you on Mannion. He was a top round talent before going back for his senior year that cost him money while he was getting pounded on. The Beavs didn't do much but they did run a pro style offense and you don't put up those numbers getting lucky or having a year with Cooks.

Did he have some issues coming out, no doubt about it. But so did guys who were consensus 1st round picks. Hell Bradford was THE #1 pick and everyone knew it he was a can't miss pick.

After a year with the Rams staff I would love to see what he's got but sadly it isn't happening. Another thing I agree on is that he is as good as any of the guys coming out at this point. And I'm ready to build the rest of the supporting cast in particular a 1st round WR. There will be some unhappy Rams fans if they don't "do something" to spend drafts picks on a QB. I hope they are pleasantly surprised and Mannion is our guy for the next 8 or 10 years.

 

[jrry32]

Right now the Rams are in position for the #18 pick in the draft. That means that in order to get a high enough pick for the top one or two QBs, at least they would need to throw in both seconds., and maybe more. That's to get somebody who is far from a sure thing, and who is unlikely to be overly productive in 2016 at least. IF they feel Mannion has progressed, they could easily feel that the Rams would be better off drafting another lineman high, another receiver or two, or maybe fill a hole from whomever they lose in free agency on defense.

The window for their defense is short - can the team really trade away most of their draft for a QB who isn't likely to be the best option for 2016?

Now, if a better vet becomes available, I could see trading a pick for him. I just don't know who that would be.

I'll tell you right now, the Rams should not hesitate. Do it. Do whatever it takes to get Jared Goff. Give them whatever they ask.

You can bookmark this post and come back in 3 years. Jared Goff is going to be great. If we get him, he'll bring us the Lombardi Trophy. He'll have his ups and downs like every rookie but he'll play well enough for us to make the playoffs next year. And after that? Watch out. We'll be a contender year in and year out.

Well I'm a little biased living 45 minutes up the road from where he played his college ball but I just don't see the same problems you see. He might tend to wind up on some passes but he also has shown the ability to shorten his motion when needed. Do you remember seeing a bunch of strip sacks when he was in the pocket? I don't.

He also had very little talent around him if you take out one year from Wheaton and Cooks for a couple years a piece. His senior year he had virtually no skill players on offense and a pathetic O-line. And still he became the most prolific passer in Pacific Conference history. When you consider what has come out of the Pac, that is not a small feat.

I'm not saying he is a sure fire QB talent but when I compare him to the 2016 QB class, I think he holds up pretty well. Given the choices, Mannion looks like a pretty good option having a year on the sidelines, NFL weight room, NFL coaches, and some pro reps compared to any of the 2016 QBs out of college. If you consider that Mannion love then so be it. I tend to think of it more as comparing what is available and what is our best course of action. To me it seems that Mannion plus a top receiver and some other pieces is potentially our best option for the future. Case can be a very good back-up and if Mannion is the guy I think he can be, that allows us to not have 3 roster spots tied up at the QB position.

Ultimately I think the coaches are going to know if Mannion is better than what they see in the draft. I know that many don't think Fish and Snead have the ability to discern that but I suppose we'll see. I also seem to have more faith in them than most here as well. Guess I just suck at evaluating.

The throwing motion looked improved to me when he played this year. My issues with him were more related to how similarly he looked to college Nick Foles. Throwing off balance, inaccurate when forced off his spot, big guy but doesn't really have a big arm, not much in the way of mobility, gets thrown off his game when hit, goes through random spurts of inaccuracy, etc.

I just didn't see a quality NFL starter when I evaluated him in college.

Seems we don't agree on much today. I'm basing my thoughts on Mannion on what I watched throughout training camp. He just has something about him that stuck out to me.

I mentioned coming out of the preseason that the sooner he is elevated to the #2 the better. Now we go into next season and IMO he will be given every chance to compete for the starters job. Mostly due to the implosion of Foles.

I like what Keenum has shown this far. But I think Mannion offers more upside. And I don't see them bailing on him this soon.

What I don't get is how so many (not you specifically) can make any kind of evaluation without ever watching him (or anyone else) play.

Most don't get to see them in practice (outside of camp), so they just make assumptions. More often than not guys like Mannion are out of sight out of mind until the these type of conversations.

We can agree on this much...after watching some more of Wichmann, I think we're okay at guard next year. Reynolds, Wichmann, and Brown can battle it out for the two spots. Saffold sticks around as the 6th OL because he can play 4 spots and should be able to stay healthy as a utility player.

As for Mannion, don't make that assumption. I saw 3 years of him in college. I've seen him play. To me, he looked a lot like Nick Foles in college.

 

[nighttrain]

speaking of Nick Foles, he best not be even close to training camp next year
train

 

[CoachO]

We can agree on this much...after watching some more of Wichmann, I think we're okay at guard next year. Reynolds, Wichmann, and Brown can battle it out for the two spots. Saffold sticks around as the 6th OL because he can play 4 spots and should be able to stay healthy as a utility player.

As for Mannion, don't make that assumption. I saw 3 years of him in college. I've seen him play. To me, he looked a lot like Nick Foles in college.

I made a point of saying my comments weren't directed at YOU specifically. We'll just agree to disagree in Mannion and see how it plays out.

Comparing his physical attributes to Foles is one thing. But IMO Mannion has something that Foles hasn't shown me. Superior intelligence and a strong football IQ.

 

[MountainRam]

I agree with this. I don't see them drafting another QB.

Someone mentioned in the Keenum thread, that they could keep Foles ($$$) and Keenum would be the odd man out.

Thats the only scenario I see them drafting a QB. But if that's the case they'd be all but rolling the dice that Mannion will be ready. Or God forbid they think they can salvage Foles.

IMO, they find another vet to bring in as insurance (Sanchez type) and basically take the same approach as they did with A. Davis last preseason. Either Foles or whatever vet it is wins the roster spot.

I just don't see any of the QBs coming out being a better prospect than Mannion or Keenum in the immediate future. And face it. This team is ready now. They can't afford to waste any more time hoping they find lightning in a bottle at QB.

Agree with a lot here based on the system Fisher runs which is Gurley centric. God Forbid, if Gurley has to miss time, I have serious questions if Keenum/Mannion is up to snuff to lead the team on their own. This makes me think Fisher will find a RB instead of QB in 2nd round with their Eagles pick to pair with Gurley. This will ensure their running game is covered and would let them play to their game plan (defense and run game with play action passing) even if one of the RBs have to miss some time.

This method still leaves Rams with no franchise QB. But given Fisher may be coaching his last season, if there is no improvement in W-L record, this appears to be the most risk averse formula for a winning season.

 

[JackDRams]

Agree with a lot here based on the system Fisher runs which is Gurley centric. God Forbid, if Gurley has to miss time, I have serious questions if Keenum/Mannion is up to snuff to lead the team on their own. This makes me think Fisher will find a RB instead of QB in 2nd round with their Eagles pick to pair with Gurley. This will ensure their running game is covered and would let them play to their game plan (defense and run game with play action passing) even if one of the RBs have to miss some time.

This method still leaves Rams with no franchise QB. But given Fisher may be coaching his last season, if there is no improvement in W-L record, this appears to be the most risk averse formula for a winning season.

Have you forgotten about Tre Mason? The kid that played very well his rookie year and has had very little opportunity this year? If Fisher wastes another high pick on a back I'll lose my shit. Gurley, Mason and Benny is stacked. No way can we fit in another, not to mention waste precious high draft capital to do so.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I made a point of saying my comments weren't directed at YOU specifically. We'll just agree to disagree in Mannion and see how it plays out.

Comparing his physical attributes to Foles is one thing. But IMO Mannion has something that Foles hasn't shown me. Superior intelligence and a strong football IQ.

Mannion is a coach's son, so he's gonna have that strong football IQ