A few observations..... Boras/Keenum - Cignetti/Foles & OLINE

[fearsomefour]

Rams could easily have 5 young OT's in 2016 (Robinson, Havenstein, Donnal, Battle & Williams) not sure that OT is up there on the concerns list at the moment.

Which looks like two pre ordained starts and no depth. Same ol same ol. Might work out great if Battle and or Williams/Donnal progress, but, as we all know, that is guessing game.
The real question perhaps is....which moves provide value for the Rams?
Cook saves about $6M if cut. Britt about $4M. Long about $11M (I think). JL about $4.5M. RS saves $3M if cut. In terms of actual value, that is open to opinion, there really is no "best" plan going forward because there are a lot of variables. To me, Britt is the first gone on that list, then Cook. JL would be hard to replace with an upgrade at his cap number. Same could probably be said for RS. If the opinion is RS has to go because he is just too injury prone, I get that. Chris Long is the most obvious cut I suppose based on salary and recent injury history. I think maybe the team tries to redo his deal to save cap space/money and keep him in the fold.

 

[blackbart]

Nice analysis BUT it falls on Jeff Fisher's deaf ears. Am I the only one still bearing the scars of Scott Wells? If Fisher was willing to keep an injured and worthless Wells around so long, why do we think he would possibly jettison Saffold after jumping through all the hoops to resign him to a multi-year deal not even a year ago? Logic doesn't apply here because Fisher has a "code of coaching" that he religiously adheres to that includes that a veteran can never, ever lose his starting position due to injury. If Fisher coached the Yankees, Wally Pipp would still be playing and we'd never know the name Lou Gehrig. So I don't get the point of dreaming about Saffold going away, it's just not going to happen. As soon as he is healthy Fisher will insert him as a starting guard again according to his loyalty dogma. The salary is no problem, the Rams easily accommodated the $5-6 million for pieces like Kendricks and Fairley, Saffold's contract is manageable going forward especially with the cap going up.

I think the difference between Wells and Saffold is we really did not have a good option (or so they thought).

 

[LumberTubs]

This oline (and QB's) have done well keeping the sacks down.

They've also generated a good YPC in the running game.

But... It seems the YPC is inflated by big runs by Gurley and Tavon on sweeps. I don't have the stats to back this up; but it feels like the performance is mostly boom or bust in the running game. The occasional big run by Gurley and Austin, with fewer runs in the 4-6yd range. For that reason, our run game isn't getting us the consistency we need to sustain drives.

Again, no stats to back that up. Anyone else see this?

The footballoutsiders OL rankings back you up on this (in fact answering your question is kind of the only purpose for them since they give 0% credit to big runs): http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Rams are #2 in open field yards rank but when you take that away just #24 overall, bottom third in power rank and bottom third in stuffed rank.

This is just the sense I get and no stats to back this up but I think this is something that has improved. There were games earlier in the season when it seemed as if Gurley was either going to get hit in the backfield or take it for a massive gain.

More recently it seems as if he's been getting more of your typical kind of 4 to 6 yards gains. Less boom or bust as @CGI_Ram put it. It's clearly still got a way to go based on what @Fatbot has posted but it seems to have improved.

 

[RamzFanz]

We were rough on Jenkins for his first three years for his mental lapses in the secondary and biting on plays he shouldn't leaving his guy open. Enter year 4 and he has matured into a great CB.

4th year = contract year. Coincidence? Dude has been awesome this season though. Johnson too.

But... It seems the YPC is inflated by big runs by Gurley and Tavon on sweeps. I don't have the stats to back this up; but it feels like the performance is mostly boom or bust in the running game. The occasional big run by Gurley and Austin, with fewer runs in the 4-6yd range. For that reason, our run game isn't getting us the consistency we need to sustain drives.

Gurley has been almost 100% boom or bust on individual runs with most of his big gains late in the game I think but better lately? I know he's had many games with 2-3 YPC if you subtract the 1 or 2 big runs.

Austin has been consistently gaining yards without the boom. I don't recall many big plays, over 15 yards, by him this season. But he's good for 6-8 every time they hand him the ball it seems to me. He's become so adept at making defenders miss in the backfield, I don't even worry when I see them blast through anymore when he's running the ball.

Logic doesn't apply here because Fisher has a "code of coaching" that he religiously adheres to that includes that a veteran can never, ever lose his starting position due to injury.

Bradford? Hill? Didn't Yikes get hurt before Mason emerged?

To me, Britt is the first gone on that list

Seems to me Britt and CK have some real chemistry and Britt is our best WR. Dude has made a lot of really nice plays this season even with the terrible Foles. Not sure why they would even consider cutting him rather than adding to the WR corps so he's the 2 or 3.

Cook has been better, but I'd cut him before Britt. With Austin and Gurley running, Britt, Marquez, Welker (?), and Bailey (?) and a top tier WR or two to be named later, we need blocking TEs more, IMHO.

 

[RamzFanz]

If Boras figures out how to get TA the ball with more skill and imagination than Cigi, it would be deadly. Even with the predictability, dude was productive all season.

Trivia: There has been 1 win all season for the Rams when TA didn't get the ball more than 5 times.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Cook has been better, but I'd cut him before Britt.

I'm not cutting either of these dudes....

 

[RamzFanz]

I'm not cutting either of these dudes....

Yeah but we're headed into a bit of a budget crises, especially since Foles may be a bust and CK or another FA may be signed.

 

[CoachO]

This oline (and QB's) have done well keeping the sacks down.

They've also generated a good YPC in the running game.

But... It seems the YPC is inflated by big runs by Gurley and Tavon on sweeps. I don't have the stats to back this up; but it feels like the performance is mostly boom or bust in the running game. The occasional big run by Gurley and Austin, with fewer runs in the 4-6yd range. For that reason, our run game isn't getting us the consistency we need to sustain drives.

Again, no stats to back that up. Anyone else see this?

I agree with the overall premise of your post but to me it just exaggerates the point of sticking to the running game.

The exact same thing can be said of many of the top rushing teams. How many times have we seen Adrian Peterson bottled up for the majority of games only to break off a game breaking run? This is no different than the entire career of Steven Jackson as a Ram. Tons of 1-2 yard runs then he busts out for a 20+ that changes a game.

Now with Gurley the Rams have shown the ability to wear teams down and take over the second half of games by continuing to feed him the ball. He leads the league in 4th quarter rushing yards. So IMO the YPC avg is accurate to the point of showing how important it is to me keep giving him the ball.

 

[iamme33]

To be fair force feeding Tavon was working for this offense as he was often the only one churning out any significant yardage. A couple weeks ago he was averaging over 10 YPC which is astronomical in the NFL and well ahead of a record setting pace (not sure if this is still the case going into week 17, but I think Football Outsiders had a nice write up like 3 weeks back).

The sweep (and its oft ran decoy) serve this offense a fine purpose. It might be a bit too cutesie for some of you guys, but it opens up some breathing room for T3G0 too.

I also noticed when foles faked to tg up the middle and ta around the end foles would have great pass protection not that he did anything with it.

 

[BonifayRam]

I'm not cutting either of these dudes....

As far as Britt issue.....these two below elements will factor heavy in that decision. You like the draft prospects or the UFA's WR's?
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/ufa/wide-receiver/
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2016/WR

Both UFA's & draft WR prospects look a bit light so based on that can we afford to dump Britt?

 

[CoachO]

I also noticed when foles faked to tg up the middle and ta around the end foles would have great pass protection not that he did anything with it.

In a roundabout way this is exactly what I mean by sabotaging the rest of the offense.

Don't you find it kind of unsettling that they were forced into these sort of gimmick plays to be able to have any sort of success? And since Keenum has taken the reigns, they have been more efficient without needing to rely on this sort of stuff.

Britt and Cook have been noticeably more productive while Austin continues to make plays. Keenum knows where to go with the ball and doesn't hold on to it. He anticipates guys coming out of their breaks and gets the ball to them on time.

With that said, the pattern continues. The only way they seem to be able to get the ball to Austin is by handing it off or throwing the bubble screen. Austin has now played with six different QBs (and 3rd coordinator) with the same results. Which begs the question to be asked. Who's the problem here?

For the second season he will end up with more carries than receptions. At some point, thinking he's a WR (as opposed to a highly productive gadget player) is what I mean by saying he is sabotaging the offense.

I'm not insinuating he's not a valuable piece. There's no arguing he is an impact player. But the passing game suffers when they continue to line him up outside as an every down WR.

 

[rams24/7]

Nice analysis as always @CoachO . I have been pleasantly surprised with the progression from year to year with Barnes starting as a PS guy all the way up to starter. He is one of those guys who's a limited athlete but makes up for it with his football IQ and sound technique. The communication along the OL this year (when a cohesive unit) has been very good, and I give plenty of credit to Timmy.

Barnes has also surprised me with slightly more strength than I have seen in past years and he seems to have improved with his footwork and hand placement. It's nice seeing him move big guys like Mebane with good technique and leverage and he's also made some good downfield blocks as well. I know his ceiling is nowhere near a guy like GRob, but it's great to see him maximizing HIS potential.

 

[CoachO]

Nice analysis as always @CoachO . I have been pleasantly surprised with the progression from year to year with Barnes starting as a PS guy all the way up to starter. He is one of those guys who's a limited athlete but makes up for it with his football IQ and sound technique. The communication along the OL this year (when a cohesive unit) has been very good, and I give plenty of credit to Timmy.

Barnes has also surprised me with slightly more strength than I have seen in past years and he seems to have improved with his footwork and hand placement. It's nice seeing him move big guys like Mebane with good technique and leverage and he's also made some good downfield blocks as well. I know his ceiling is nowhere near a guy like GRob, but it's great to see him maximizing HIS potential.

To me he is the epitome of the "developmental" player that so many claim the Rams are incapable of.

 

[rams24/7]

As for the 2016 offense I would like to see us go heavy offense in the first 4 rounds. I like the depth of guys like Reynolds, Wichmann, Williams, etc. However despite their solid play this year that I'll admit has surprised me, I think they fit best as backups. I'd go:

LT: Robinson/Battle/Williams
LG: Brown/Reynolds
C: Barnes/Draft pick
RG: Draft pick/Wichmann
RT: Havenstein/Donnal

In an ideal world I'd cut Saffold to free up cap to re-sign our defensive stars and re-sign Tim Barnes. I love me some Saffold when healthy as he's a swiss army knife who is physcial, athletic, and can play 4 OL positions at a high level. But that's the key WHEN HEALTHY, which he rarely is. He's good for 4 games if that, and I'd much rather use his roster spot for a youngster who could potentially develop into a solid backup or starter.

I think spending our second 2nd round pick on a top OG would be a good option, and he could sit behind Reynolds/Wichmann if he isn't ready by week 1. Re-signing Barnes to a team-friendly 2-3 year deal should be a priority. Is he replaceable? Sure, but not all of your 22 starting spots are going to have a perfect option in place. He's more than adequate for another year or two while we develop a mid round center behind him.

I actually think WR is our biggest need on offense. Re-sign Keenum to be our #2, and then draft a QB in the early rounds. But a difference making WR like Treadwell, or someone similar should be the top priority. A player of his caliber will demand attention over the top and will force the 8th or 9th defenders out of the box more frequently, giving Todd more opportunities. I think a guy like Wentz with #16-20 or wherever we draft would be a great option.

Anyways, just my wet dream for next year...

 

[rams24/7]

To me he is the epitome of the "developmental" player that so many claim the Rams are incapable of.

Yep. I give Coach Bou a lot of credit for what he's done in his 4 years here. I'm not sure how much he factored into the decisions of Wells and Long, but when faced with maximizing results out of OLs he's succeeded more often than not.

Just look at Wayne Hunter, a guy who Jets fans said was terrible, who actually stepped in for several games a LT and didn't do too bad.

How about Barry Richardson, who many said was the worst RT in 2011, turning in an ok 2012 for us.

Or Joe Barksdale, a early round draft "bust" that none of the other 31 wanted. Made an emergency LT start against GB and slowly developed into a starting RT an got himself a second contract.

Can't commend him enough for what he's gotten out of this years patchwork OL, and our rookies look like a very solid class.

 

[rambone]

Just want to say this is one of the best threads of the year. EVERY commenter has, good practical and thoughtful feedback (whether you agreed or not) on Coach O’s original post which was insightful as always.

As Jim Hannifin might say – best da**n board in town.

 

[CoachO]

Yep. I give Coach Bou a lot of credit for what he's done in his 4 years here. I'm not sure how much he factored into the decisions of Wells and Long, but when faced with maximizing results out of OLs he's succeeded more often than not.

Just look at Wayne Hunter, a guy who Jets fans said was terrible, who actually stepped in for several games a LT and didn't do too bad.

How about Barry Richardson, who many said was the worst RT in 2011, turning in an ok 2012 for us.

Or Joe Barksdale, a early round draft "bust" that none of the other 31 wanted. Made an emergency LT start against GB and slowly developed into a starting RT an got himself a second contract.

Can't commend him enough for what he's gotten out of this years patchwork OL, and our rookies look like a very solid class.

I tend to agree with you. And as far as Wells and Long, there was nothing wrong with the plan, IMO. Obviously the injuries to them, and the reoccurring injuries to Saffold have done more to derail their "plan" far more than anything Boudreau has failed to do.

Making the decision to go in a completely different direction (youth movement) tells me they weren't going to pay high $ for aging vets anymore. With that comes the obvious growing pains while they develop (there's that word again). With all the injuries (again) to me, it only shows that Boudreau is capable of making due with whatever he has to work with.

I know this isn't a popular POV with many, but the extent of the injuries this team has endured the past few years is unprecedented.

 

[RamFan503]

You center "experts"make me laugh.

Yeah - not cool on the attitude. You're new here. Care to expound on your credentials that make you above the others' expertise?

Small correction. I thought it said 2015 not 2013 on your profile. Bad eyes. Regardless, I still don't like the attitude and you obviously don't post here much. I don't get why you have to belittle others' opinions rather than just post your own.

 

[RamFan503]

Good thread @CoachO

I like what we have right now. Maybe some see a lack of depth and ability but I see a lack of good ole playing time and playing together as a unit. I think we have some real studs in the making along this line and that we haven't seen but a small portion of their future as a unit. I'm sure there are positions we could improve upon. But what team can't say that? Maybe we do need to draft more O-linemen in the upcoming draft but I personally don't consider it a high priority whereas I have thought it was one of our highest priorities in the past.

I also think GRob gets way too much crap thrown on him even though I will admit that I haven't liked what I have seen in quite a few games. Part of the problem seems to be that he is an attention magnet - some of his doing and some not. I heard the announcers Sunday bag on him on a play that had zero to do with him. I think a lot of fans do that as well. GRob may not be the next Orlando but he is not near as bad as some seem to want to paint him.

As far as Barnes goes, we may be able to improve on him but we could certainly do worse. I really like the way he stays in pursuit of the play. It is that desire and effort that resulted in the two recovered fumbles. Without that, we lose both of those fumbles. And this is not to say that those two plays are enough of a body of work. They are however, perfect examples of how he plays the game. Give me 5 guys on the line with his level of talent and we have a pretty damn good O-line.

In the long run, I think we have both a pretty good O-line in the making along with pretty good depth and they are only going to get better. Havenstein seems to be talented, relentless, and smart. GRob is a little slow in the uptake but appears to be getting it. Brown is IMO a stud in the making. Reynolds has been pretty decent. And Barnes after a couple of bad games has really become a nice center. I realize it is hard to rely on Saffold but his previously injured and operated on shoulder was not the problem this last time and by accounts I read, it is stronger than the original. Is it possible that the recently operated on shoulder has the same result? Dunno. If it does though, Saffold is not exactly chopped liver. Add to this, back-ups in Donnal, Wichmann, and Battle and I think we have the ingredients of a pretty good O-line with depth.

To me this says that we should go after skill players. I'm in the camp that says to go after a #1 WR and QB. I think Case is a good one to keep as a back-up and I want to see what Mannion can do. If the Rams think one of the QBs is an upgrade early in the draft then I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the best WR in the draft than a QB as I think that is the biggest missing piece right now.

I think Case can manage the offense and make quite a few plays while we groom Mannion. I like what I see in our young O-line. We have a stud RB and good back-ups. We have a gadget/#3WR/PR in Austin that can score from anywhere. We could hold onto Britt and/or Quick as depth but I think Marquez is a player. Welker could have another year in him as well. To me, a real playmaking WR would make this offense pretty tough to handle for opposing defenses.

I'm digressing from the O-line subject of the thread but what I see is an O-line that gives us the ability to target the next big hole.

 

[nighttrain]

Maybe that's why I like him I will take the offensive equivalent to Gregg Williams although Seattle fans will just complain that Ram offensive players are trying to injure their players running over them.

:rolllaugh:
train