You’ve got to see Rams Joseph Noteboom to believe him

[Merlin]

And why are we doubting after a year which comprised of 6 games?

Can't speak for others but for myself it's because he had to rehab and come off a major surgery while still needing to get stronger. I've said about ten times in the past few days that maybe he'll pull it off. So yeah I'm concerned, at least enough to want to discuss it.

And by the way it doesn't bother me that you want to put your trust in the staff vs the fans. Knock yourself out. There's just no reason to say "let them compete and that's the end of all discussion." If some of us want to discuss concerns why does it bother you so much? You might want to consider that.

 

[oldnotdead]

Everyone rips Noteboom's play but IMO that's not the case. The problem was Kromer threw him to the lions and simply didn't know (which he should have) that Noteboom wasn't ready. IMO Noteboom isn't the LG for the future. This year is supposed to be what last year was, to give him game experience before moving to LT. When he got hurt they had no choice but to re-sign Whitworth. What we are seeing in Joe is the result not only of the excellent training staff in Joe's rehab, but the mentoring of Whitworth. IMO Whitworth's calling is as an O-line coach. You can see him talking up the guys on the field, correcting their mistakes. If Joe plays well this year it will give them options with Whitworth next year.

That was the reason they played Edwards at RG last year to season him to take over at RT. Evans doesn't have any business playing OT at this level. He suffers from the same problem that Rob does, he's slow-footed. That was the knock on Rob in his predraft evals that he lacked the feet to play at OT in the NFL, and was too tall to play inside as he couldn't get his pads down as he must at OG. It's the same problem Edwards suffers from at RG and why they simply moved Corbett into that position. Next year if he plays well, Noteboom will move to LT with Corbett moving back to LG. Edwards will replace Havenstein at RT and Evans will move into the RG spot.

Blythe IMO isn't the center of the future. He was brought back exactly for this contingency, i.e. Allen not being ready. Allen may or may not play this year, depending on how the season goes and how well or not the o-line plays. Blythe's problem at center is two-fold IMO opinion. Watching his play be it at OG or center, he looks to lack good field vision and therefore field awareness. Once he commits, he struggles to disengage and lacks the athleticism and quickness to redirect. This lack of field vision and lack of quickness also shows in his hit or miss second-level blocking. For whatever reason Kromer doesn't seem to have confidence in Shelton who has the field vision and mobility you want in a center. IMO Kromer is much like Wade in that he doesn't like to play younger guys even if they might be better than the vet he's relying upon. The defensive book is clear on Blythe and was clearly evident in how teams played him, especially on passing downs. He's a very poor blocker if he's faced with speed. He also struggles to redirect, so many times the MIKE will simply wait until Blythe is engaged in a double and simply run right by him.

Blythe is a 5-year vet so he's all he's ever going to be. I'm hoping that this inside zone and power gap run attack which masks his flaws in run blocking. I only hope one that missed block in the passing game doesn't get Goff hurt. That will be mitigated by the emphasis on coaching up Goff to get rid of the ball quicker on time. Blythe is a COVID expedient until Allen is healthy enough to regain his starting position.

Sullivan was a fan favorite I get it. But his play wasn't as good, as some seem to suggest as it has been with Bythe as well. In his first starting year, Allen outplayed both. In the long run, I can see clearly why Snead didn't spend serious draft capital on the o-line this past draft. McVay simply hasn't had the guys healthy enough to implement the complete change. They have the talent to put together a very good o-line if they put them into a position that will simply play to the strengths of his players.

The change in the mandate of requiring at least 4 o-line active on game days will mitigate the need to continually cross-train. Through the years I have seen the value of cross-training the o-line, with one caveat that you do so with veterans who are already established and experienced in one position. When you do it like Kromer did last year with a bunch of rookies you retard their development. Rookies need to adjust to the speed of the game as well as the increased emphasis upon good technique. Now throw in constantly switching positions with the need to change techniques before they even have one position nailed down is foolish in the extreme. I'm not simply just an amateur observer seeing this, but several conversations with an ex-NFL Probowl lineman confirmed what I've seen. We saw the results in last year's camp when Kromer tried to do it with all the rookies. My friend should know because he was converted from a college DT to an NFL OG and it took him 4 years before he began his outstanding career.

From what I've seen they are practicing inside zone and gap blocking schemes for their run attack which I think will be largely between the tackles. The threat of a strong inside run game prevents the LBs from dropping too quickly and enhances the play-action game. Since few teams will be able to match up in man coverage with the 11 personnel of the Ram's pass attack Goff IMO will see a lot of zones. He needs to more quickly read the flavor of the zone and get rid of the ball faster, and from what I'm reading and seeing that is exactly what the Ram's are focused upon.

 

[Corbin]

I really hate people who use the term ‘trap game’. It’s the fucking NFL, every game is a trap game. You just say that shit to make yourself sound smart. Gtfo jackass.

 

[oldnotdead]

Blythe being destroyed by Michael Brockers who let's face it isn't the best NT Austin is going to face. I know I annoy a lot of people in regards to my constant talking about physical metrics and technique. But here it is on display as an example of what I'm talking about. Brockers has very long arms at 35" while Blythe has short arms even for the position. Blythe is unable to get to the body of Brockers to even attempt to control him. Brockers conversely is in complete control of Austin. Also note how Blythe is closing his eyes, how can you play that way? If Brockers wanted to he could have simply bulldozed Austin back into Goff, which he's not going to do since he's their franchise QB.

Technique or the lack of it is a factor as well. When you watch Sebass play NT he's big with arms almost as long as Brockers. But he's normally singled up on the center. Poor technique by Sebass consistently allows the center to get into his body thereby conceeding control. This was highlighted in the Seahawks game where Joey Hunt a center with average arm length for the position was able to get to SJD body and effectively control him taking him out of the play. It's a reason SJD is unable to shed blocks as well.

This is why Blythe has to play much better this year and why as a 5th year vet I think he's half a step above a scrub. It's also why we need to be careful how you judge o-line scrimmage play. But this isn't the first time I've seen this eyes closed crap from Blythe. Had I ever mentioned it on this board no one would have believed me. This is the point where in a real game Blythe gets tossed aside like a rag doll. With his eyes closed he can't even stop it from happening and will catch him by surprise. It's also why I have to ask does Kromer watch film?

 

[OldSchool]

It is a fair one too I think. Do you have an actual opinion to allow for further discussion or is the extent of your opinion to try to shit on anyone who doesn't clap along on every single fucking thing the team does.

I speak my opinions on a regular basis around here. I've said more times than I can count I'm not ruling out any players before the season starts nor any schemes we run until the players are coached and we see them on the field. Scrimmages like yesterday mean exactly jack shit. We all know from watching this sport for as long as we have that the defense is always favored in these early stretches.

Lets take a look at the OLine when we had our last great offensive season before everybody lost their minds.

LT Whitworth we'll just use your description on him and say he excels in pass pro.
Saffold was very good in run blocking and above average in pass pro
Sullivan like Blythe excelled at neither wasn't bad at either but wasn't good either.
Blythe started the majority of the games at RG and while he was better in 2018 than last year he isn't good at either pass or run blocking, to hear most around here he's terrible aside from his knowledge of the line blocking calls.
Havenstein we'll use your description of him as well.

So how is this line that's little changed from 2018 suddenly so terrible? That team was #2 in scoring #3 in rushing #5 in passing.

Was Saffold so all world that we went from a top 5 line to atrocious? He was good but I think we've seen some injuries cause a major problem last year and two young guys who weren't as ready to start as the 9 year vet Saffold and the 10 year vet Sullivan. Those are their years of experience as of the 2018 season.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and has the right to give them, I certainly do for mine. And everybody has the right to disagree with somebody else's opinions and explain why. I think I've made it perfectly clear over the many years that I'm not going to assume anything before the season has even started, especially after one scrimmage. I'm also pretty certain I've made it absolutely clear I'm not going to cut somebody or say the idiotic things that people around here say about players after a handful of bad games and most definitely not going to do that or suggest we cut them after those games took place in their first run of starts. Do I think that this oline is going to be among the Rams greats all time? No not really, but I doubt they're going to be as bad as all the cool kids seem to be predicting around here.

 

[OldSchool]

How so? When he was an OT it's not like he was a stud then, until he found his calling as a guard. Took a few years to get to that level too since he had his pec and both shoulders operated. All while operating under a coaching staffs who's best single season was 8-8. People were calling for him to be cut because he "couldn't be relied upon to stay healthy". Whatever the hell that means.

Joe gets a freak injury after 6 total games and people want to bench him or draft his replacement. He should get a chance to play more than 6 games, and let a coaching staff that assembled a roster whose worst season is 9-7 so far develop him.

Saffold was very average as a LT, when he was healthy, and wasn't truly good at Guard until his last year with us. Anything else is revisionist history.

 

[jrry32]

That's a poor comp IMO. Saff may have gotten injured more frequently than we liked, however he always showed well on the field in games when he was available.

Also I don't see any criticism police. Just fans concerned with the OL as usual and bored as fuck/trying to talk football.

Saffold had a solid rookie year, stunk up the joint before getting injured in his second year, and then had some up and down play and injuries in the subsequent years. He didn't emerge as a very good to great OG until Kromer and Whitworth arrived. Before that, he was more of an average player.

Mach answered that quite well above.

And I haven't seen one person who wants Boom benched because he was injured. It's doubt about him being a starter because he played poorly in year one. Where the injury comes in is it prevented him from improving down the stretch which he may have done.

As to the doubt about him coming off major surgery and rehab and actually being stronger, I think that's a fair take. Don't you? And if not, why not. Isn't that a lot better than making generalizations about "people" who don't share your view?

It's worth keeping in mind that Noteboom was also playing his first real football at Guard in his life. He played Tackle in college. And he was doing so on an OL that was out of sorts next to a Center who was an abject disaster. The line didn't gel until later in the season. What's significant to me is the fact that David Edwards, who played solid football as a rookie, has been supplanted by Noteboom, while Brian Allen isn't running with the 1's.

We might just find out that part of Noteboom's struggles last year were due to the guy next to him (with the other part being inexperience). I trust our offensive staff. If Noteboom is pushing Edwards to the bench, he must be showing something. It's also worth remembering that Bobby Evans is another guy who could play OG if Noteboom wasn't showing anything. It's not like we lack depth now. Let's wait and see.

 

[Mackeyser]

Saffold has been a borderline pro-bowl player for many years, and even early in his career was an average NFL starter at worst. He never looked completely lost or got dominated like Noteboom did last year. Yes he battled injuries early with his shoulders, but he was already a good player and started 16 games as a rookie. Noteboom couldn't even find the field as a rookie. After sitting his entire rookie season preparing to play guard, in his first starting opportunity he had a horrible year. It wasn't even close to being an average NFL player. Entering year 3 we still have no clue if he can play at the NFL level.

He's being asked to play out of his natural position, and is coming back from a bad ACL + MCL tear. It's surprising to me that some people question the concern regarding him starting. Especially when the o-line was the cause of the teams downfall last year.

Also let’s not forget that when they finally went and looked, Saffold’s shoulders had a congenital defect and when they fixed the one, they knew the other would fail. Also, they would be stronger after surgery. Once his shoulders were squared away, he was dominant.

 

[Mackeyser]

Saffold had a solid rookie year, stunk up the joint before getting injured in his second year, and then had some up and down play and injuries in the subsequent years. He didn't emerge as a very good to great OG until Kromer and Whitworth arrived. Before that, he was more of an average player.



It's worth keeping in mind that Noteboom was also playing his first real football at Guard in his life. He played Tackle in college. And he was doing so on an OL that was out of sorts next to a Center who was an abject disaster. The line didn't gel until later in the season. What's significant to me is the fact that David Edwards, who played solid football as a rookie, has been supplanted by Noteboom, while Brian Allen isn't running with the 1's.

We might just find out that part of Noteboom's struggles last year were due to the guy next to him (with the other part being inexperience). I trust our offensive staff. If Noteboom is pushing Edwards to the bench, he must be showing something. It's also worth remembering that Bobby Evans is another guy who could play OG if Noteboom wasn't showing anything. It's not like we lack depth now. Let's wait and see.

In all fairness, Saffold was playing next to Greg Robinson

 

[jrry32]

In all fairness, Saffold was playing next to Greg Robinson

Yeah, but that supports my point (the guy next to you matters and can drag down your level of play).

 

[Merlin]

It's worth keeping in mind that Noteboom was also playing his first real football at Guard in his life. He played Tackle in college. And he was doing so on an OL that was out of sorts next to a Center who was an abject disaster. The line didn't gel until later in the season. What's significant to me is the fact that David Edwards, who played solid football as a rookie, has been supplanted by Noteboom, while Brian Allen isn't running with the 1's.

We're gonna have to disagree on Saff. He certainly had down periods but he was never outclassed like Boom was.

Re: Noteboom I realize all that. And still there's room for concern I think.

But there is that other possibility, that Noteboom and Corbett are both good enough to put Edwards on the bench, which I'm confident everyone would prefer. That would be fantastic.

 

[jrry32]

We're gonna have to disagree on Saff. He certainly had down periods but he was never outclassed like Boom was.

Re: Noteboom I realize all that. And still there's room for concern I think.

But there is that other possibility, that Noteboom and Corbett are both good enough to put Edwards on the bench, which I'm confident everyone would prefer. That would be fantastic.

Saffold gave up 10 sacks and committed 9 penalties in 9 starts in his second year. He stunk that year. When we moved him inside, he had flashes of very good play, but he was a fairly average player overall until Kromer and Whitworth arrived.

 

[thirteen28]

My take with Noteboom is that he is much better suited for being an OT than an OG ... some players are just like that. I'll be more than happy to be wrong this year if he does well at the position.

 

[Memento]

Honestly, I think Noteboom shows well. And if he doesn't and/or gets injured...well, we have plenty of depth with Edwards and Evans.

 

[OldSchool]

Saffold gave up 10 sacks and committed 9 penalties in 9 starts in his second year. He stunk that year. When we moved him inside, he had flashes of very good play, but he was a fairly average player overall until Kromer and Whitworth arrived.

Unfortunately people remember 2018 and their memory of each year prior is tinted with rose colored glasses. A lot of those supporting him now I seem to remember weren't too happy when the Raiders failed him physically and we signed him for virtually the same money.

 

[OldSchool]

My take with Noteboom is that he is much better suited for being an OT than an OG ... some players are just like that. I'll be more than happy to be wrong this year if he does well at the position.

He can play well at Guard this year and still be better at tackle, that's not bad either

 

[ramfan46]

The game Noteboom got hurt the Rams were starting to show signs of life in the running game. You can see bits of very good movement skills from Joe there. He does need to get more push at the point of attack, but he only had a handful of games to adjust to Guard. I'm just happy he's healthy and ready to compete.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Honestly I don’t think the Rams did Noteboom or Allen any favors not allowing game experience last preseason, however as I’ve mentioned before, this pattern over the past 3 years just may serve them well being the cancellation of preseason games.

 

[1maGoh]

Can't speak for others but for myself it's because he had to rehab and come off a major surgery while still needing to get stronger. I've said about ten times in the past few days that maybe he'll pull it off. So yeah I'm concerned, at least enough to want to discuss it.

And by the way it doesn't bother me that you want to put your trust in the staff vs the fans. Knock yourself out. There's just no reason to say "let them compete and that's the end of all discussion." If some of us want to discuss concerns why does it bother you so much? You might want to consider that.

I have an honest question. Really not trying to be an asshole here (it does come naturally, so please let me ask forgiveness in advance).

Isn't disagreeing with your take and stating that he doesn't understand you or didn't think you feel the way you do... Isn't that having the discussion? I mean, you've stated your case, he's stated his, and now you both dig into the finer points of what was said and counter each other's arguments. That sounds like discussion to me.

I'm curious what you think he should do if he disagrees with you but still "allows" you too have the discussion (obviously no one but mods can delete posts and thank God they aren't that petty here)? Again I don't want to sound like an asshole, but would two threads (one for each side of an argument) be better or maybe we just never reply to people who disagree with? Or maybe he did something specific I didn't notice because I can be a space cadet sometimes and don't always read every single line.

And I don't mean to seem like I'm attacking you. I just see this thing about this being a discussion board every so often and I'm wondering what people expect to be done differently.