Tre Mason breaks silence, trashes Rams

[Elmgrovegnome]

Donald, Ogletree, Gurley, Brockers, Janoris could also fit into the category of "great physical specimens with raw talent that were gambles" these ones paid off big time.

I mean look at Gerald Freakin' Everett, this year's top pick -- raw athleticism all day long. I think he scored a 24 on the wonderlic test. It's a gamble.

So does that make McVay the same as Fisher?
Or as @Elmgrovegnome said "in awe of physical traits only" ?

I'm not so sure what you say is true.

Drafting athletes on defense has a higher chance of panning out. It's more about reacting. Defensive linemen don't play with the same unison that an offensive linemen has to. So the chances of those picks working out are higher.

Now I don't know what there is not to believe. The draft evidence is there. The pure athlete with great SPARq scores has paid off in later rounds and with UFAs. But when Fisher and Snead are taking raw athletes like GROb, Tavon, and Quick so high it is a risk, which predictably has not paid off. The selection of Gurley was an anomaly for an offensive pick. He happened to be very intelligent, and football smart. Tavon never ran a good route in his life, GRob still hasn't figured out how to pass block, and Quick hasn't improved in five years.

BTW 24 on the wonderlic for a pass catcher is decent by NFL standards. A player doesn't have to be a genius but they need to be smart at football to succeed on offense. I am not including this year's draft yet because I haven't seen any of them playing in the NFL. I liked the Kupp pick most of all, because he produced against every level of competition. His play didn't drop off at all against Washington's touted DBs. Everrett was productive in college, and yes there is projection there but one, Snead is the GM and still has influence, and two, McVay knows offense. All we can do now is hope.

 

[shaunpinney]

Taking raw physical freaks as the overriding plan is a flawed way of thinking. The head has as much to do with football as the body. Tavon still can't run an NFL route right. Jenkins admitted that he would let up on some plays, which cost games repeatedly.. Quick was referred to as too dumb for football by a scout from somewhere. GRob doesn't seem to have the brains or the desire.

Sure GRob was highly touted but it wasn't because of his head or his heart. It was his physical ability. He was an incredible gamble with the 2nd overall pick, because there was zero evidence that he could pass block. Everyone knows the draft has hits and misses. Forcing a pick like a second overall is foolish, especially for a raw player like GRob. Players like him and Quick are projects. Why take a project so high? Then GRob admits to not working hard his first year, and apparently the new staff didn't like his attitude in OTAs. He lacks desire and intelligence.

Mason was a decent pick from our perspective, but why did he drop to run 3 with a second round projection and comparisons to Ray Rice. I am willing to bet most GMs didn't like the mental make up.

Figuring out a players desire and stability, is one of the toughest parts of drafting, but if it is very important not to overlook those things because a guy is a freak athlete, especially on offense.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I would have rather had (NOW) taken Taylor Lewan as an LT, or Khalil Mack or Odell Beckham Jr - the thing is lets say that the Titans Pick Robinson and turn him into Orlando Pace II - the rams would have been slated for messing up the pick - its the beauty of the draft and how prospects are developed. The Rams are not the only team to mess up or stretch draft picks.

But this is what was said at the time:

"Greg Robinson is the best run-blocker in the entire draft, which is perfect for St. Louis' run-first mentality. He has the elite athleticism teams look for in a top pick, and he'll eventually develop into a reliable pass-protector. Robinson was the best player available at No. 2 overall, so this is a perfect selection. Grade A+ "

"Mason was highly productive at Auburn—with 1,816 rushing yards and 23 touchdowns—and has experience running behind Robinson. His chemistry with Robinson in the run game will be a huge asset. Grade: A"

"Best Pick: T Greg Robinson, Auburn
It's fairly easy to look at a team's top draft pick and hype that selection as the best pickup of the draft, but in St. Louis' case, the acquisition of Robinson is truly second-to-none.

Robinson is a mauling run-blocker and a rare physical specimen. The Rams love to run the football on offense, and Robinson's tenacity will open the run lanes and take the ground game to the next level.

Robinson is not the most polished pass-protector, but for a man who is 6'5", 332 pounds and runs the 40-yard-dash in 4.92 seconds, per NFL.com, it's obvious that he has the athleticism to eventually adapt. "

Like I said - hindsight.

Not every pick can be Aaron Donald

1. 
   

 

[Rmfnlt]

Figuring out a players desire and stability, is one of the toughest parts of drafting, but if it is very important not to overlook those things because a guy is a freak athlete, especially on offense.

Agree.

 

[thirteen28]

Hi. My name is Tre.

Likes: Avoiding accountability, fast cars, workouts in my mom's front yard.

Dislikes: Accountability, being a team player, communicating with my employer, showing up when I'm supposed to.

Also, I never want to play pro football ever again, even though I say I do.

P.S. I need to be slapped.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

Drafting athletes on defense has a higher chance of panning out. It's more about reacting. Defensive linemen don't play with the same unison that an offensive linemen has to. So the chances of those picks working out are higher.

Now I don't know what there is not to believe. The draft evidence is there. The pure athlete with great SPARq scores has paid off in later rounds and with UFAs. But when Fisher and Snead are taking raw athletes like GROb, Tavon, and Quick so high it is a risk, which predictably has not paid off. The selection of Gurley was an anomaly for an offensive pick. He happened to be very intelligent, and football smart. Tavon never ran a good route in his life, GRob still hasn't figured out how to pass block, and Quick hasn't improved in five years.

BTW 24 on the wonderlic for a pass catcher is decent by NFL standards. A player doesn't have to be a genius but they need to be smart at football to succeed on offense. I am not including this year's draft yet because I haven't seen any of them playing in the NFL. I liked the Kupp pick most of all, because he produced against every level of competition. His play didn't drop off at all against Washington's touted DBs. Everrett was productive in college, and yes there is projection there but one, Snead is the GM and still has influence, and two, McVay knows offense. All we can do now is hope.

I could agree with you 100%
But my comment was more about how you can't know for sure that Fisher or Snead prioritzed athleticism to the detriment of other traits like intelligence and competitiveness

The example of the Gerald Everett pick was only to qualify it as a so-called "Fisher-esque" selection - which it would be as described by @Rmfnlt ) and to also sorta suggest that every team prioritizes drafting players in a similar way as Fisher did.

 

[DaveFan'51]

Drafting athletes on defense has a higher chance of panning out. It's more about reacting. Defensive linemen don't play with the same unison that an offensive linemen has to. So the chances of those picks working out are higher.

I totally disagree! Did you ever watch the Fearsome-Foursome Play!?! Or here them Talk about their approach to attacking an Offense!?! It was anything but "Reactive" they where always using Team work even IF it didn't appear that way! And I'm not just talking about the front four either!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I would have rather had (NOW) taken Taylor Lewan as an LT, or Khalil Mack or Odell Beckham Jr - the thing is lets say that the Titans Pick Robinson and turn him into Orlando Pace II - the rams would have been slated for messing up the pick - its the beauty of the draft and how prospects are developed. The Rams are not the only team to mess up or stretch draft picks.

But this is what was said at the time:

"Greg Robinson is the best run-blocker in the entire draft, which is perfect for St. Louis' run-first mentality. He has the elite athleticism teams look for in a top pick, and he'll eventually develop into a reliable pass-protector. Robinson was the best player available at No. 2 overall, so this is a perfect selection. Grade A+ "

"Mason was highly productive at Auburn—with 1,816 rushing yards and 23 touchdowns—and has experience running behind Robinson. His chemistry with Robinson in the run game will be a huge asset. Grade: A"

"Best Pick: T Greg Robinson, Auburn
It's fairly easy to look at a team's top draft pick and hype that selection as the best pickup of the draft, but in St. Louis' case, the acquisition of Robinson is truly second-to-none.

Robinson is a mauling run-blocker and a rare physical specimen. The Rams love to run the football on offense, and Robinson's tenacity will open the run lanes and take the ground game to the next level.

Robinson is not the most polished pass-protector, but for a man who is 6'5", 332 pounds and runs the 40-yard-dash in 4.92 seconds, per NFL.com, it's obvious that he has the athleticism to eventually adapt. "

Like I said - hindsight.

Not every pick can be Aaron Donald

I am not talking about hindsight. Maybe it is hindsight for you, but not for me. I was against picking Robinson from the start of the off-season. I didn't want him. I felt Lewan was the safer bet, but I was scared off by reports of him threatening a girl to keep quiet about being raped by the Michigan kicker. So my plan was trade down a few spots and take Matthews. Matthews hasn't been great but he is way better than GRob.

I don't care what the so called experts think. I never read reviews. I know what I think. I disagreed with the pick before it happened. I also hated the trade up for Tavon, and taking Quick in round 2. The athlete first philosophy has paid off for Snead on defense. On offense he needs a new strategy. Taking a proven player, with a great work ethic and football mind like Kupp is a trend that I hope continues for the offense. I speculate that picking Kupp was aided by McVay's analysis, along with his coaches.

After the third third round, I don't get too picky. There are too many ways to go and getting a good starter in rounds 4-7 isn't expected every year. Wasting a second overall pick on a project like GRob was stupid.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I totally disagree! Did you ever watch the Fearsome-Foursome Play!?! Or here them Talk about their approach to attacking an Offense!?! It was anything but "Reactive" they where always using Team work even IF it didn't appear that way! And I'm not just talking about the front four either!

The unity on a defensive line is nothing like that of an offensive line, especially now. Defensive lineman are rotated and moved around all game long. Offensive lines play all game, every game of things go as planned. Back in the FF days it was common to play the same four Dlinemen all game.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I could agree with you 100%
But my comment was more about how you can't know for sure that Fisher or Snead prioritzed athleticism to the detriment of other traits like intelligence and competitiveness

The example of the Gerald Everett pick was only to qualify it as a so-called "Fisher-esque" selection - which it would be as described by @Rmfnlt ) and to also sorta suggest that every team prioritizes drafting players in a similar way as Fisher did.

How do we know the Everrett pick was all about athleticism?

I don't agree about all teams prioritizing athleticism over IQ. Many teams look for specific types. Fisher and Snead became predictable. They always took the most athletic player they could get. It is not a great plan to be so single minded.

My hope is that McVay can convey what he wants in an offensive player and Snead changes tactics. I think there is hope that he did so, after what h ing the 2017 draft.

 

[LesBaker]

I don't recall hearing it from the Rams, but reading that article... they HAD to see some warning signs in his behaviour.

And... it's probably THE reason Gurley was a target and selected.

I think you are likely on to the truth here CGI........and I hadn't thought of that but it sounds completely logical.

Like I said - hindsight.

Yup, the pick was applauded at the time but it just didn't work out.

 

[shaunpinney]

I am not talking about hindsight. Maybe it is hindsight for you, but not for me. I was against picking Robinson from the start of the off-season. I didn't want him. I felt Lewan was the safer bet, but I was scared off by reports of him threatening a girl to keep quiet about being raped by the Michigan kicker. So my plan was trade down a few spots and take Matthews. Matthews hasn't been great but he is way better than GRob.

I don't care what the so called experts think. I never read reviews. I know what I think. I disagreed with the pick before it happened. I also hated the trade up for Tavon, and taking Quick in round 2. The athlete first philosophy has paid off for Snead on defense. On offense he needs a new strategy. Taking a proven player, with a great work ethic and football mind like Kupp is a trend that I hope continues for the offense. I speculate that picking Kupp was aided by McVay's analysis, along with his coaches.

After the third third round, I don't get too picky. There are too many ways to go and getting a good starter in rounds 4-7 isn't expected every year. Wasting a second overall pick on a project like GRob was stupid.

Then, you were right in your assumption. And your view was a lot better than the analysts and other GMs in the NFL. The thing is, you can't get away from the fact that Robinson was the highest graded run blocker in that year, and with the Rams being a run-first O, the pick did make sense, and picking his Auburn RB team-mate in the later rounds ALSO made sense.

And at the time of the Tavon pick, we were in desperate need of an offensive 'spark' and you can't deny that Austin is that kind of player. I still believe that Austin could be formidable in an offensive minded team with a great O-minded HC, ohh wait... lets see how things go this season

Kupp is a rare kinda guy, he sounds like the complete package when it comes to being NFL ready, only time will tell.

Finally, let me clear things up, I didn't like the GRob pick, nor for that matter Quick (I wanted to select Sammy Watkins in 2014!) But I can definitely understand WHY they were selected along with Mason and IF, GRob would have played to his potential, and Quick hadn't been hampered by those injuries in the last couple of years, we'd all be applauding Fisher and we'd be basking in the glory of reaching the play-offs.

 

[So Ram]

This exact thought was in my head reading that. Makes you wonder, however, about those "friends".

Then again, he seems convinced he knows what he's doing. Often can't talk that type into anything.

He brought his brother in the locker room at the end of the season.He was being interviewed & said he brother was going to be great like him ? I was like what ??
It was one of the craziest interviews ever.
I think it was the last game of his rookie season. I don't know wherehis brother was plauing ? HS ?? Not even sure he was playing.
If someone could pull that out of The Rams archives. You could see what his
Menta health was at the time.

That season The RMs did an interviewer

How do we know the Everrett pick was all about athleticism?

I don't agree about all teams prioritizing athleticism over IQ. Many teams look for specific types. Fisher and Snead became predictable. They always took the most athletic player they could get. It is not a great plan to be so single minded.

My hope is that McVay can convey what he wants in an offensive player and Snead changes tactics. I think there is hope that he did so, after what h ing the 2017 draft.

That is what happened with the Everett pick. McVay (Snead) picked him out as the player they wanted.
Les Snead had an idea of where he was going to get drafted. He traded back & then Wade got his choice in Johnson.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Then, you were right in your assumption. And your view was a lot better than the analysts and other GMs in the NFL. The thing is, you can't get away from the fact that Robinson was the highest graded run blocker in that year, and with the Rams being a run-first O, the pick did make sense, and picking his Auburn RB team-mate in the later rounds ALSO made sense.

And at the time of the Tavon pick, we were in desperate need of an offensive 'spark' and you can't deny that Austin is that kind of player. I still believe that Austin could be formidable in an offensive minded team with a great O-minded HC, ohh wait... lets see how things go this season

Kupp is a rare kinda guy, he sounds like the complete package when it comes to being NFL ready, only time will tell.

Finally, let me clear things up, I didn't like the GRob pick, nor for that matter Quick (I wanted to select Sammy Watkins in 2014!) But I can definitely understand WHY they were selected along with Mason and IF, GRob would have played to his potential, and Quick hadn't been hampered by those injuries in the last couple of years, we'd all be applauding Fisher and we'd be basking in the glory of reaching the play-offs.

I absolutely can discard the "fact" that GRob was the top offensive tackle, and Tavon was the to p offensive weapon, because on my board GRob was a late second round pick and Tavon was a third round pick. What we read on draft sights or hear on NFL Network isn't necessarily what teams all agree on. Some teams didn't like GRob or Tavon. Every team has their own boards and most analysts don't know who is rated where. GRob was far to raw, and dint come across as all that intelligent in interviews. Ditto for Tavon. He was not a polished receiver and I could barely understand a word he said. I put a high value on intellectually fence. It is one of the main factors in making the GSOT work. Holt, Bruce, propel, Marshall, and Kurt all had a high football IQ. They were intelligently in general. Fisher didn't care so much about that when he was awed by a SPARq score. He was crazy about Trent Richardson, and Trent couldn't move fast and think at the same time. The Patriots have a dynasty by valuing intelligence over elite athleticism. I want players that are smart and can learn the game, if they don't already know it. Cooper Kupp is my ideal type of player. I was a big Amendola fan too. GRob never seemed to fit that mold. He never came across as being that motivated. There are a lot of college players that dominate every year by being the most athletic guy on the field. In the NFL, players can't get by on athleticism alone.

 

[shaunpinney]

I absolutely can discard the "fact" that GRob was the top offensive tackle, and Tavon was the to p offensive weapon, because on my board GRob was a late second round pick and Tavon was a third round pick. What we read on draft sights or hear on NFL Network isn't necessarily what teams all agree on. Some teams didn't like GRob or Tavon. Every team has their own boards and most analysts don't know who is rated where. GRob was far to raw, and dint come across as all that intelligent in interviews. Ditto for Tavon. He was not a polished receiver and I could barely understand a word he said. I put a high value on intellectually fence. It is one of the main factors in making the GSOT work. Holt, Bruce, propel, Marshall, and Kurt all had a high football IQ. They were intelligently in general. Fisher didn't care so much about that when he was awed by a SPARq score. He was crazy about Trent Richardson, and Trent couldn't move fast and think at the same time. The Patriots have a dynasty by valuing intelligence over elite athleticism. I want players that are smart and can learn the game, if they don't already know it. Cooper Kupp is my ideal type of player. I was a big Amendola fan too. GRob never seemed to fit that mold. He never came across as being that motivated. There are a lot of college players that dominate every year by being the most athletic guy on the field. In the NFL, players can't get by on athleticism alone.

Like I said your knowledge and scouting must be greater than mine (and the others). I also value IQ, but sometimes there are players that can just ball. I can only go by the games, tape and what I read on players, as I'm not privy to being able to interview players myself. If we were go by the intelligence theory then Barett Jones would be an all-pro centre and Ryan Fitzpatrick with be the GOAT.

What I'm trying to say is that hindsight is a deceptively powerful thing, and there are MANY high draft picks that NEVER make the grade for various reasons, and I don't think that Fisher & Snead are the only ones guilty of having a few draft misses.

 

[jrry32]

This exact thought was in my head reading that. Makes you wonder, however, about those "friends".

Then again, he seems convinced he knows what he's doing. Often can't talk that type into anything.

Yep, that's something you learn more and more of as you age. Some people just aren't going to be deterred no matter how many people tell them they're making a mistake. You can't convince a person who believes he knows best that he's wrong.

 

[jrry32]

The concern with Goff is that he never operated out of as huddle. He's not the only one that comes over via the spread... but he might be the first #1 overall QB to come that way? And, of course, they gave up so much to get him with this skill set missing.

Not trying to be negative here...

Cam Newton . . . ? Alex Smith . . . ?

 

[Dieter the Brock]

How do we know the Everrett pick was all about athleticism?

I don't agree about all teams prioritizing athleticism over IQ. Many teams look for specific types. Fisher and Snead became predictable. They always took the most athletic player they could get. It is not a great plan to be so single minded.

My hope is that McVay can convey what he wants in an offensive player and Snead changes tactics. I think there is hope that he did so, after what h ing the 2017 draft.

That's my point
You have no idea any of Fisher's picks were all about athleticism either

And i'm trying to make the point no team values athleticism over IQ but instead i think it's a constantly varying mix of both

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Like I said your knowledge and scouting must be greater than mine (and the others). I also value IQ, but sometimes there are players that can just ball. I can only go by the games, tape and what I read on players, as I'm not privy to being able to interview players myself. If we were go by the intelligence theory then Barett Jones would be an all-pro centre and Ryan Fitzpatrick with be the GOAT.

What I'm trying to say is that hindsight is a deceptively powerful thing, and there are MANY high draft picks that NEVER make the grade for various reasons, and I don't think that Fisher & Snead are the only ones guilty of having a few draft misses.

I am nothing saying I am always right. Julio Jones did t come across as a good interview and combine that with his concentration drops and I was not convinced he would go higher than 18-30.

I don't interview players either. I am sure you know that. Just look for interviews and you will find them.

There is a difference between smart and football smart. I said a 24 wonderlic is not a bad score. I want guys that eat sleep and breathe football. Players whose practice habits scream, "I friggin love football".

This discussion has been pushed to the point of no return. There is no sense continuing.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

That's my point
You have no idea any of Fisher's picks were all about athleticism either

And i'm trying to make the point no team values athleticism over IQ but instead i think it's a constantly varying mix of both

Fisher and Snead have been very consistently obvious with the majority of their draft picks over the years. You can disagree but I haven't met anyone until now that thinks otherwise. He swung big on some athletic freaks with serious risks, both concerning development and or character. It's been their m.o. Most years you could predict exactly who they would take in the top two rounds, sometimes three. Freak athletes with red flags were the pick rumour every year because they ignored the red flags to get the value on pick. ' If this guy didn't have 40 kids to 40 women he would be a top ten, or if this guy didn't beat up a teammate he would be top fifteen, or this guy may not know how to pass block but we don't need to protect the QB when all we do is run. ' Its slanted thinking, for a game plan. At some point they needed to say why can't we find good team players, or guys that can learn their position. It is a hit or miss strategy. Not surprising because that is Fisher's style.

I really don't want to keep going round and round on this one. It's drug on. You disagree, I get it.