Thoughts on Fisher

[Alan]

jrry32 remembering differently:
He inherited a defense that came with Grant Wistrom, Kevin Carter, London Fletcher, Leonard Little, Dre Bly, Dexter McCleon, Todd Lyght, etc.

It wasn't an atrocious unit.

This is a bleacher report but I choose it because of their description of our D. I bolded it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/326662-the-greatest-show-on-turf-the-dynasty-that-never-was
2000:

The Rams' offense continued its dominant ways in the 2000 season, scoring 540 points, which was the third highest single-season total in NFL history. In each of the first eight games, the Rams scored 34 or more points, including 41 or more six times.

Reigning MVP Kurt Warner proved that his 1999 season was no fluke, throwing for 300 yards in each of the first six games of the season, which tied an NFL record. He threw 19 touchdowns during that stretch.

Then disaster struck, as Warner broke his hand and missed five starts.

Trent Green finally had a chance to show the Rams what he could do and he didn't disappoint, throwing for 16 touchdowns and only five interceptions, while posting a 101.4 passer rating.

The combination of Warner and Green helped the Rams set an NFL single-season record with 7335 total yards, including 5492 through the air.

Marshall Faulk turned in arguably the greatest season by a running back in the last half-century, despite missing two games due to injury. He rushed 253 times for 1359 yards and 18 touchdowns. He caught 81 passes for 830 yards and eight touchdowns. His 26 touchdowns set a new NFL single-season record and his 5.4 yards per carry led the league. Faulk's 160 points scored were one fewer than the entireCincinnati Bengals offense scored that season.

Even more incredibly, Faulk didn't fumble the football once. Had he played a full season, Faulk would likely have scored 30 touchdowns and broken his own single-season record for total yards. Faulk ran away with the Most Valuable Player award and earned his second consecutive Offensive Player of the Year award.

Second-year player Torry Holt caught 82 passes for 1635 yards, the ninth highest single-season total in NFL history. He scored six touchdowns and led the league with 19.9 yards per catch. Isaac Bruce caught 87 passes for 1471 yards and nine touchdowns. Az-Zahir Hakim added 53 catches for 734 yards and four touchdowns, while averaging more than 15 yards per punt return. Even kicker Jeff Wilkins posted a career year, converting on all 17 field goal tries.

It was during the 2000 season that the St. Louis Rams' offense earned the nickname "The Greatest Show On Turf." Following a 57-31 shellacking of the hapless San Diego Chargers in week five, ESPN analyst Chris Berman referred to the Rams' offense as the "Greatest Show On Earth," which was later changed to the term "Greatest Show on Turf" to suit the Rams' playing conditions.

The defense, however, was absolutely dreadful.

Although cornerback Dexter McCleon intercepted eight passes and defensive ends Grant Wistrom and Kevin Carter each posted double-digit sack totals, the Rams ranked dead last in the NFL in points allowed, with 471. Seven times the Rams allowed 30 or more points, including 54 to the Kansas City Chiefs. The Rams ranked near the bottom in every major defensive category, after finishing near the top the year before.

Despite starting the season 6-0, the Rams struggled to reach the postseason, winning in New Orleans in the season's final game to secure a wild-card berth.

In the postseason, the Rams faced the Saints for the second consecutive week. Kurt Warner, who had healed from his broken hand, closed out a season that saw him finish second in the MVP voting by throwing three interceptions and losing a fumble. Marshall Faulk was held to a season-low of 24 yards rushing. The Rams still managed 28 points, but as many expected, were let down by their defense, which allowed the winning points to score on a field goal in overtime.

 

[Alan]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/326662-the-greatest-show-on-turf-the-dynasty-that-never-was
2001:

The Rams had to decide between Kurt Warner and Trent Green as their starting quarterback in the offseason. Although Green had performed brilliantly during Warner's injury, Warner was still the reigning MVP who had finished second in voting the year before, despite only playing in 11 games.

Warner was named the Rams' starting quarterback and Trent Green left to join the Kansas City Chiefs.

In the offseason, an incredible nine of the eleven defensive starters were cut. Cornerback Dexter McCleon and defensive end Grant Wistrom were the only two defensive starters retained for the 2001 season. The Rams signed former Buccaneers' linebackers coach Lovie Smith as their new defensive coordinator. The Rams had three first-round picks and used them all on defensive players. The Rams also acquired six different players via trade or free agency, including veteran cornerback Aeneas Williams, who had been selected to six consecutive Pro Bowls with the Arizona Cardinals.

Perhaps no team in NFL history had seen such a dramatic change in its defense from one year to the next.

The Rams began the 2001 season with six straight wins, becoming the first team to start three consecutive seasons 6-0.

Their much-improved defense allowed just 273 points, a 198 point increase over the previous season.

The Rams steamrolled through the remainder of the regular season, winning 14 games and earning home-field advantage throughout the postseason for the second time in three years.

The Rams faced Favre and the Packers in the divisional round, where they turned in their most impressive game of the past three seasons. The Rams scored 45 points and allowed just 17. They intercepted Favre six times, returning three for touchdowns, while forcing eight total turnovers. In the NFC championship game, the Rams struggled early against the Eagles, before closing with a 29-24 win.

Their second Super Bowl appearance in three seasons came against the surprise New England Patriots, a team that the Rams were favored to defeat by 14 points.

Super Bowl XXXVI might be the signature game of the Greatest Show On Turf.

Despite outgaining the Patriots 427 to 267 in total yards, the Rams lost 20-17, thanks to three turnovers and a walkoff 48 yard field goal by Adam Vinatieri. Kurt Warner threw for 365 yards, the second most in Super Bowl history, and although his lone touchdown pass tied the game with 1:30 to play in the fourth quarter, it wasn't enough to make up for a costly interception touchdown to Ty Law in the second quarter.

After the season, Warner earned his second Most Valuable Player award. His 4830 passing yards were the second highest total in NFL history and his 36 touchdown passes ranked sixth. Even more importantly, he stayed healthy, playing in all 16 games.

Marshall Faulk earned his record third consecutive Offensive Player of the Year award, rushing 260 times for 1382 yards and 12 touchdowns. He led the league in yards per carry for the third consecutive season. Faulk also caught 83 balls for 765 yards and nine scores. His 21 touchdowns tied for the tenth highest single-season total in NFL history. For the fourth consecutive season (the last three with the Rams), Faulk topped 2000 yards from scrimmage.

Receivers Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce turned in their usual spectacular season. Holt caught 81 passes for 1363 yards and seven touchdowns, while Bruce grabbed 64 passes for 1106 yards and six scores.

Tackle Orlando Pace turned in his third consecutive Pro Bowl season, cementing his reputation as the best offensive lineman in the National Football League.

The Rams became the first team in NFL history to score more than 500 points in three consecutive seasons. They won double-digit games for the third straight season. For the second time in three seasons, they represented the NFC in the Super Bowl.

 

[blue4]

Where did they rank AFTER he became HC? I told you where they ranked when he inherited the team. Is it all his fault? No. But he didn't inherit an "absolutely awful defense."

He inherited a defense that came with Grant Wistrom, Kevin Carter, London Fletcher, Leonard Little, Dre Bly, Dexter McCleon, Todd Lyght, etc.

It wasn't an atrocious unit.

That's what I said 2000. The 99 Rams are the ones he inherited, what did the 2000 Rams rank?
Kevin Carter didn't play well and exited the following year. Todd Lyght was obviously slower. And you left out the entire rest of the defense that totally sucked. So yes I guess he had 4 decent players, if one can call Dexter a decent player. Like I said we aren't going to agree.

 

[jrry32]

That's what I said 2000. The 99 Rams are the ones he inherited, what did the 2000 Rams rank?
Kevin Carter didn't play well and exited the following year. Todd Lyght was obviously slower. And you left out the entire rest of the defense that totally sucked. So yes I guess he had 4 decent players, if one can call Dexter a decent player. Like I said we aren't going to agree.

Kevin Carter posted double digit sacks. Todd Lyght was a year older but the guy wasn't terrible.

He inherited almost the entire 1999 Rams defense...that ranked 4th.

So yeah, I guess he had 4 "decent" players. Because Grant Wistrom, Leonard Little, Kevin Carter, and London Fletcher were "decent." Plus, Dre Bly and Dexter McCleon both played key roles in the 2001 resurgence.

Just admit it...claiming he inherited an absolutely awful defense was a major characterization.

 

[jrry32]

This is a bleacher report but I choose it because of their description of our D. I bolded it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/326662-the-greatest-show-on-turf-the-dynasty-that-never-was
2000:

The Rams' offense continued its dominant ways in the 2000 season, scoring 540 points, which was the third highest single-season total in NFL history. In each of the first eight games, the Rams scored 34 or more points, including 41 or more six times.

Reigning MVP Kurt Warner proved that his 1999 season was no fluke, throwing for 300 yards in each of the first six games of the season, which tied an NFL record. He threw 19 touchdowns during that stretch.

Then disaster struck, as Warner broke his hand and missed five starts.

Trent Green finally had a chance to show the Rams what he could do and he didn't disappoint, throwing for 16 touchdowns and only five interceptions, while posting a 101.4 passer rating.

The combination of Warner and Green helped the Rams set an NFL single-season record with 7335 total yards, including 5492 through the air.

Marshall Faulk turned in arguably the greatest season by a running back in the last half-century, despite missing two games due to injury. He rushed 253 times for 1359 yards and 18 touchdowns. He caught 81 passes for 830 yards and eight touchdowns. His 26 touchdowns set a new NFL single-season record and his 5.4 yards per carry led the league. Faulk's 160 points scored were one fewer than the entireCincinnati Bengals offense scored that season.

Even more incredibly, Faulk didn't fumble the football once. Had he played a full season, Faulk would likely have scored 30 touchdowns and broken his own single-season record for total yards. Faulk ran away with the Most Valuable Player award and earned his second consecutive Offensive Player of the Year award.

Second-year player Torry Holt caught 82 passes for 1635 yards, the ninth highest single-season total in NFL history. He scored six touchdowns and led the league with 19.9 yards per catch. Isaac Bruce caught 87 passes for 1471 yards and nine touchdowns. Az-Zahir Hakim added 53 catches for 734 yards and four touchdowns, while averaging more than 15 yards per punt return. Even kicker Jeff Wilkins posted a career year, converting on all 17 field goal tries.

It was during the 2000 season that the St. Louis Rams' offense earned the nickname "The Greatest Show On Turf." Following a 57-31 shellacking of the hapless San Diego Chargers in week five, ESPN analyst Chris Berman referred to the Rams' offense as the "Greatest Show On Earth," which was later changed to the term "Greatest Show on Turf" to suit the Rams' playing conditions.

The defense, however, was absolutely dreadful.

Although cornerback Dexter McCleon intercepted eight passes and defensive ends Grant Wistrom and Kevin Carter each posted double-digit sack totals, the Rams ranked dead last in the NFL in points allowed, with 471. Seven times the Rams allowed 30 or more points, including 54 to the Kansas City Chiefs. The Rams ranked near the bottom in every major defensive category, after finishing near the top the year before.

Despite starting the season 6-0, the Rams struggled to reach the postseason, winning in New Orleans in the season's final game to secure a wild-card berth.

In the postseason, the Rams faced the Saints for the second consecutive week. Kurt Warner, who had healed from his broken hand, closed out a season that saw him finish second in the MVP voting by throwing three interceptions and losing a fumble. Marshall Faulk was held to a season-low of 24 yards rushing. The Rams still managed 28 points, but as many expected, were let down by their defense, which allowed the winning points to score on a field goal in overtime.

Yes. The defense was dreadful. And yet, the year before, they were top 5 in the NFL. Were they just lucky in 1999?

 

[MrMotes]

Yes, that's what happens when you "gas" your defense (my opinion of course)

Why didn't it happen in '99 or '01?

 

[blue4]

Kevin Carter posted double digit sacks. Todd Lyght was a year older but the guy wasn't terrible.

He inherited almost the entire 1999 Rams defense...that ranked 4th.

So yeah, I guess he had 4 "decent" players. Because Grant Wistrom, Leonard Little, Kevin Carter, and London Fletcher were "decent." Plus, Dre Bly and Dexter McCleon both played key roles in the 2001 resurgence.

Just admit it...claiming he inherited an absolutely awful defense was a major characterization.

I won't admit it, because I don't agree with you. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that defense played well, or pretend that the large chunks of that defense played as well as the year before. I know what I saw on the field. And even if I did blame that defense solely on Martz, I'd have to admit that first it was his rookie year as a HC, and second he completely fixed it the next year. So, no I don't have anything to admit. I don't agree with you.

 

[Alan]

jrry32 bemoaning coincidence:
Were they just lucky in 1999?

I've never seen anything like it before or since. I think it was just the confluence of many factors that all came together at once. Age and injuries being the main culprits. In addition, our offense didn't help. It was the first year they started calling us the GSOT and we scored so quickly and so often that our D never got any time to rest.

It was my favorite year of the GSOT era though. I've always loved high scoring shootouts and our horrible D forced us to try and score every possession because if we didn't we had a good chance of losing. But...we had the best offense ever and it was such a joy to watch us actually be able to score at will. It was the most exciting season I've ever had as a Ram fan. Except for the playoff game we lost in overtime of course. That sucked.

"In the offseason, an incredible nine of the eleven defensive starters (some were rotational but this is the Bleacher report ) were cut." That says it all jrry. You can talk about some good players we still had but they were the finger in the dike trying to hold back the North Sea. After cleaning our defensive house at the end of the 2000 season and drafting a bunch of defensive players and signing some great FAs like Aeneas Williams our D bounced back in time to get cheated by the Cheatriots. I credit Williams with much of our resurgence on the defense.

 

[Alan]

Something i forgot to add that might or might not be a factor in the decline of our defense in 2000 is the fact that we won the SB. While I have absolutely no proof of this, I think many of our players rested on their laurels and partied a big part of the off season. Or they just didn't keep up their conditioning. I know from personal experience that when you get to a certain age and you stop doing what you've been doing to hold back the hands of time you can never get completely back to where you were before.

 

[blue4]

Martz also tried to jumpstart that defense in 2000 by bringing Bud Carson out of retirement to consult with Peter Guinta. So it's not like he stood idle playing with the offense. Those players looked slow and lazy. A few core players like Fletcher and Wistrom being the exception.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Players win championships. Coaches help them... but the players will always be the difference.

Interesting concept.

I remember going round and round years ago about this.

I was with you in that, ultimately, it's the players who make the difference. I mean, I've never seen a coach actually play in a real game while they are coaches.

But I kept being told that it was the coaches that mattered. They were the ones that made the difference.

It's probably on both (the coaches and the players).

 

[dieterbrock]

Martz also tried to jumpstart that defense in 2000 by bringing Bud Carson out of retirement to consult with Peter Guinta. So it's not like he stood idle playing with the offense. Those players looked slow and lazy. A few core players like Fletcher and Wistrom being the exception.

Yep. The Rams defense in 99 was decent, not great. Seemed like every game the Rams were up 14-0, 21-0 before anyone knew what was going on. Then they pinned their ears back with a lead. I said it then and I'll say it now, they were incredibly over rated as a unit but were carried by such superior D. Heck Kevin Carter asked off the field at the end of the Superbowl with that famous Vermeil tirade
In any event, Martz kept the offense going even with Trent Green and Marc Bulger, transitioned the RB position from Marshall to SJ. So yeah, as expected, the OC in him excelled. But we all also saw Martz bring in Lovie and revamp the defense. So he revamped the offense and the defense. All in his 5 seasons.
Marmie was a terrible hire and that haunts his career.
I know for me, watching the offense in 2006 with Bulger and SJ having their career best years, I couldnt help but wish Martz was still running the show. And then, off the cliff they fell

 

[Rmfnlt]

What did they rank in 2000 when he took over? That huge fall gets blamed all on the head coach? I must be the only one here who remembers watching the defense that year because they were absolutely pathetic. They looked old and probably were one of the slowest units I've ever seen.

In 2000, the DC was Peter Giunta who was also the DC in 1999. But I think the defense in 1999 was hard to evaluate, given the leads they were handed early in games.
In 2001, the score got a lot closer for the most part and the defense was exposed more.
2002, in came Lovie and a complete scheme change and things improved.
But after the 2003 season, Lovie earned his chance and Martz hired his friend, Larry Marmie. The defense went from 17th to 23rd.
That move helped seal Mike Martz's fate.

 

[Selassie I]

Interesting concept.

I remember going round and round years ago about this.

I was with you in that, ultimately, it's the players who make the difference. I mean, I've never seen a coach actually play in a real game while they are coaches.

But I kept being told that it was the coaches that mattered. They were the ones that made the difference.

It's probably on both (the coaches and the players).

There's no question that good coaching adds to the success of any team... but there's only so much that the greatest coach in the world can get out of any player. Great coaches can get the most out of their players... no doubt about it.

Give the greatest coach in the world a group of 53 average to below average players and the result will never be winning championships.

 

[Rmfnlt]

There's no question that good coaching adds to the success of any team... but there's only so much that the greatest coach in the world can get out of any player. Great coaches can get the most out of their players... no doubt about it.

Give the greatest coach in the world a group of 53 average to below average players and the result will never be winning championships.

Like I said, most times, I think it's a combination.

But there is a line of thinking that a coach can make average players great.

I think that would depend on the player's actual physical capabilities. Coaching can't fix physical deficiencies.

To simply make a sweeping statement that it's all on the coaches seems odd to me.

No?

 

[Selassie I]

Like I said, most times, I think it's a combination.

But there is a line of thinking that a coach can make average players great.

I think that would depend on the player's actual physical capabilities. Coaching can't fix physical deficiencies.

To simply make a sweeping statement that it's all on the coaches seems odd to me.

No?

There's only so much blood that can be taken from a turnip.

Hahahaha

 

[OldSchool]

It's interesting that in all of this discussion about Martz, in the Fisher thread no less, but no credit is given to Lovie Smith. It seems Martz was not only an offensive genius but a defensive one also. Lovie was just riding on his coat tails. The truth is we got some people healthy, added a couple pieces, drafted mediocre and promoted a damned good DC.

 

[Stranger]

Yes. The defense was dreadful. And yet, the year before, they were top 5 in the NFL. Were they just lucky in 1999?

Where the heck is this line of thought going? If it continues, I'm afraid you'll be posting the question: "was the entire GSOT a fluke?"

I hope you realize that the Socratic method that you're being taught is nothing more than a tool that was developed and used to co-opt the minds of Greek youth, making every argument seem feasible through the use of carefully crafted questions. (see I.F. Stone's book, which provides completely different perspective on Socrates' than the traditional spin.)

 

[fearsomefour]

Freaking Larry Marmie....

 

[Rmfnlt]

Freaking Larry Marmie....

Shoot... we'll fix him!