Thoughts on Fisher

[Stranger]

Martz put together the GSOT in '99 as OC. He then did a complete rebuild of the defense in '01. That team went 14-2 (our best record ever) and to the SB.

Martz did a lot of good stuff...

I would give just about anything to still have Martz as our HC. No way do we go through what we just went thru if he is still in the building, and never left it.

 

[OldSchool]

I'm just curious if people really remember the drafts we had with Martz once he took control over from Vermiel.

 

[Stranger]

Martz inherited a Super Bowl winning team. I don't want to speak ill of Martz but citing his record doesn't mean much.

Umm, Martz played a large part in creating that SB Winning team that you reference.

I'm just curious if people really remember the drafts we had with Martz once he took control over from Vermiel.

There were also shifts in the F.O. when Martz took over as HC. One can't analyze those drafts without also considering who in the FO was making personnel decisions.

 

[ramsince62]

My thoughts on Fisher haven't changed much since the day we were trying to get him to come here, he's an OK "safe option" coach he'll get you around .500 maybe a few wins less, maybe a win more, you're never going to suck for long with him as HC, but you're never going to be great for long either.

Sadly, at least based upon a 20 year record, that's the reality.

 

[OldSchool]

Umm, Martz played a large part in creating that SB Winning team that you reference.


There were also shifts in the F.O. when Martz took over as HC. One can't analyze those drafts without also considering who in the FO was making personnel decisions.

So as OC he had major input on the draft and fre agency but he lost that when he was promoted to HC?

 

[dieterbrock]

Martz put together the GSOT in '99 as OC. He then did a complete rebuild of the defense in '01. That team went 14-2 (our best record ever) and to the SB.

Martz did a lot of good stuff...

And was in the process of rebuilding the offense with Bulger, SJax etc
So he rebuilt the defense once and the offense and yet "inherited" a team that he was an integral part of....
I think Fisher has done a great job in rebuilding this team but Martz won a playoff game in his last full season as HC, and we havent sniffed the playoffs since

 

[MrMotes]

So as OC he had major input on the draft and fre agency but he lost that when he was promoted to HC?

Martz certainly wasn't very good at drafting but let's not forget that Zygmut became President of football operation when Vermeil retired and when Martz was fired the drafting didn't get better, it got worse. Things didn't start to improve until Zygmut left.

So i wouldn't want Martz as GM but as HC in a functional FO with a quality GM, hell yeah...

 

[Stranger]

So as OC he had major input on the draft and fre agency but he lost that when he was promoted to HC?

No, my point is that Zygmunt/Armey gained more control in the personnel process. So, to put poor draft personnel decision strictly on martz, cause he moved from oc to hc, is unfair. Gotta look at the whole picture.

"One of Zygmunt’s closest confidants is Samir Suleiman (aka "throat slasher"), who succeeded Zygmunt as Director of Football Operations"

Who Exactly is Rams GM Jay Zygmunt

September 27th, 2008

Jeff Roman

Posted in Off the Cuff, St. Louis Rams
http://archive.nflgridirongab.com/2008/09/27/who-exactly-is-rams-gm-jay-zygmunt/

There is a lot of blame going around for the Rams’ awful start to 2008 and their awful 2007 season under Scott Linehan.Scott Linehan is obviously facing most of the blame, but so is GM and President of Football Operations, Jay Zygmunt.But, who is Jay Zygmunt anyway?He does not come out and give interviews to the press often and is certainly a very low profile GM.Most Rams fans want him fired, but know very little about him.Let’s see if we can find out how Zygmunt got to where he is today.

Jay Zygmunt was hired by owner Georgia Frontiere and his friend John Shaw in 1982 for the L.A. Rams.Jay was an accountant and a lawyer by trade and was hired to be the Rams general council.Zygmunt had gone to college at Notre Dame and gotten his law degree at Northwestern.He moved to LA and became an accountant, where he met John Shaw.

When Shaw moved to the Rams, he convinced Georgia to bring on Zygmunt.Shaw and Zygmunt moved up the organization together and soon Zygmunt was negotiating player contracts for the Rams.He began to negotiate more and more contracts for the Rams, until he was negotiating over 90 contracts a year.As the salary cap rose in prominence in the 90s and into the new millennium, so did Jay Zygmunt rise through the ranks of the Rams front office.

He became the Rams cap expert and official contract negotiator.He would interface with the player agents and negotiate contract extensions, free agent contracts and other matters.Zygmunt moved to St. Louis with the Rams in 1995 at Frontiere and John Shaw’s insistence.In the St. Louis Rams organization, he steadily moved up to the position of Executive Vice President.Zygmunt also became one of the NFL’s most respected cap managers and regarded as someone who had a handle on the economics of the NFL in the salary cap era.

Soon, Zygmunt was given even more responsibility within the organization.After the Rams won the Super Bowl in January 2000, Dick Vermeil suddenly retired which left the Rams in a lurch.They needed to restructure the organization and in the restructure Jay Zygmunt was named President of Football Operations.Also, as we all know, Mike Martz was named Head Coach and Charlie Armey was named General Manager.Martz still had the final call on all personnel decisions, but needed both Armey and Zygmunt’s approval.

But if Martz had final call on all decisions, why would have need Armey and Zygmunt’s approval?In either case, Armey was in charge of evaluating talent, but the Rams still did not have a full scouting department, instead relying on an outside scouting agency.At this point, the Rams were a three-headed checks and balances front office with Armey, Zygmunt and Martz.




After the restructuring, the front office arrangement worked well for a few years, but all three began to disagree.Zygmunt tried to exert more power over player additions through free agency and the draft, which did not sit well with Martz.Armey was supposed to be the scouting and personnel guru based on his experience.Armey and Zygmunt were a good team with Armey as the player evaluator and Zygmunt as the cap guru and contract negotiator.It is unclear when this relationship broke down, but it did and we all know how that ended up.

Martz was admitted to the hospital during the 2005 season, took a leave of absence and eventually fired after the season.While he was on “leave”, Martz took his feud with Zygmunt and Armey public and there was no going back to the Rams for Martz.Martz even famously called the Rams during the game to try to relay a play call to the offensive coordinator at the time, Steve Fairchild.Jay Zygmunt intercepted the call and hung up on Martz.

After Martz was fired, Zygmunt hired Scott Linehan to become the Rams new head coach in 2006.By the beginning of the 2007 season, Zygmunt had been promoted again to President of Football Operations/General Manger.Charlie Armey moved to Director of Pro Personnel and later retired.Billy Devaney was hired from Atlanta before the 2008 NFL draft as Armey’s replacement.Zygmunt was now the first and last say on all contracts and players.

He would get advice from his scouts and personnel department, but he has the final authority.Zygmunt went from cap manager in 1995-1999 to general manager in 2007.Zygmunt was renowned in 2005 during his public struggle with Mike Martz as a great cap guy, but someone who didn’t have too much idea about how to evaluate and sign football talent.And for some reason the Rams continued to promote Zygmunt into higher responsibility positions in the football organization and began to increase his say on player acquisitions.

Zygmunt was known in agent circles as having one of the top five tempers in the NFL.He is a fiery and passionate man and negotiator.He has also been known to put his foot down on drafting specific players to the chagrin of all the scouts and coaches.His final word does not just end with the draft as Zygmunt has surrounded himself and by extension the Rams front office with his friends and compatriots.One of Zygmunt’s closest confidants is Samir Suleiman, who succeeded Zygmunt as Director of Football Operations.

Samir famously (or infamously) called up Bernie Miklasz of the St. Louis Post Dispatch in response to a story and said, “Tell your source that I’m not a back-stabber, I’m a (expletive) throat slasher, and he’ll know the difference before it’s all said and done.”Now, it does not need to be said that this is not the way a harmonious front office should work.Some see this as the mentality Zygmunt has fostered in the Rams front office.Crossing or disagreeing with Zygmunt (and to a lesser extent Suleiman) could not be a good plan in the Rams front office.Slowly, more people in the front office sided with Zygmunt and the people who did not were cut off or removed.

John Shaw as president of the Rams is the highest authority in the front office, but his activity in the front office has been waning as of late.As his friend’s activity has been decreasing, Zygmunt’s power has been increasing.With Shaw in semi-retirement by all accounts and the Rams ownership situation in flux, the whole front office is in upheaval.Zygmunt used that upheaval to his benefit and rose to the position of General Manager.

Jay Zygmunt has put his stamp on the Rams and by all accounts that stamp is not a good one.Since 2000, the Rams have not drafted well or signed top-flight free agents.Not all of this blame can be placed on Zygmunt; some goes to Mike Martz (Trung Candidate).But, with the state of the Rams there is plenty of blame to go around.But, what we do know is that the Rams have a man who is never been known for being a good player evaluator or eye for talent as their GM.Ideally, the Rams would be able to hire a new GM and Zygmunt would return to his player contracts role and being a salary cap guru.Would Zygmunt give up the General Manager position voluntarily?

Rams fans hope that he would, but in the past he has tried to exert more power over personnel decisions – even when not the GM – so he may not take kindly to the decrease in responsibilities.This is not to be mistaken; Zygmunt is one of the smartest executives in the NFL and one of the best so-called “cap guys”.But is he cut out to be a General Manager?

This is for certain; Zygmunt’s lacks the qualifications to be a General Manager in the NFL.That would not matter as much if he was able to turn the St. Louis Rams into a productive, competitive squad year in and year out in his time as General Manager.But he has not.The Rams squad is old, one of the oldest in the league.The Rams are less talented than most of the other teams in the NFL.Ten of the players the Rams drafted in 2006 and 2007 are not on any 53 man roster in the NFL.Ten of the players that should be the young talent base for the Rams are not even on a roster!

This is a huge mistake in talent acquisition that has eroded the Rams talent base that forces the Rams to fill in their roster with other team’s roster cuts.Cut players are rarely young and talented, but usually on the downside of their careers.This results in the higher age of the Rams players and the lack of depth and talent at all positions.Billy Devaney was hired to oversee the draft and the Rams have made improvements in the 2008 draft.However, the Rams need a General Manager to turn around their squad and bring the Rams back to their glory days.Jay Zygmunt has shown in his years in charge that he is not the man to draft and sign the best talent in the NFL to turn around the Rams sinking fortunes.

"Crossing or disagreeing with Zygmunt (and to a lesser extent Suleiman) could not be a good plan in the Rams front office.Slowly, more people in the front office sided with Zygmunt and the people who did not were cut off or removed."

"Zygmunt’s lacks the qualifications to be a General Manager in the NFL.That would not matter as much if he was able to turn the St. Louis Rams into a productive, competitive squad year in and year out in his time as General Manager.But he has not.The Rams squad is old, one of the oldest in the league.The Rams are less talented than most of the other teams in the NFL.Ten of the players the Rams drafted in 2006 and 2007 are not on any 53 man roster in the NFL.Ten of the players that should be the young talent base for the Rams are not even on a roster!

This is a huge mistake in talent acquisition that has eroded the Rams talent base that forces the Rams to fill in their roster with other team’s roster cuts.Cut players are rarely young and talented, but usually on the downside of their careers.This results in the higher age of the Rams players and the lack of depth and talent at all positions.Billy Devaney was hired to oversee the draft and the Rams have made improvements in the 2008 draft.However, the Rams need a General Manager to turn around their squad and bring the Rams back to their glory days.Jay Zygmunt has shown in his years in charge that he is not the man to draft and sign the best talent in the NFL to turn around the Rams sinking fortunes."

 

[Stranger]

I think Fisher has done a great job in rebuilding this team but Martz won a playoff game in his last full season as HC, and we havent sniffed the playoffs since

Yup, martz took us to the playoffs 4 of the 5 full seasons that he hc'd
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/MartMi0.htm

 

[OldSchool]

No, my point is that Zygmunt/Armey gained more control in the personnel process. So, to put poor draft personnel decision strictly on martz, cause he moved from oc to hc, is unfair. Gotta look at the whole picture.

"One of Zygmunt’s closest confidants is Samir Suleiman (aka "throat slasher"), who succeeded Zygmunt as Director of Football Operations"



"Crossing or disagreeing with Zygmunt (and to a lesser extent Suleiman) could not be a good plan in the Rams front office.Slowly, more people in the front office sided with Zygmunt and the people who did not were cut off or removed."

"Zygmunt’s lacks the qualifications to be a General Manager in the NFL.That would not matter as much if he was able to turn the St. Louis Rams into a productive, competitive squad year in and year out in his time as General Manager.But he has not.The Rams squad is old, one of the oldest in the league.The Rams are less talented than most of the other teams in the NFL.Ten of the players the Rams drafted in 2006 and 2007 are not on any 53 man roster in the NFL.Ten of the players that should be the young talent base for the Rams are not even on a roster!

This is a huge mistake in talent acquisition that has eroded the Rams talent base that forces the Rams to fill in their roster with other team’s roster cuts.Cut players are rarely young and talented, but usually on the downside of their careers.This results in the higher age of the Rams players and the lack of depth and talent at all positions.Billy Devaney was hired to oversee the draft and the Rams have made improvements in the 2008 draft.However, the Rams need a General Manager to turn around their squad and bring the Rams back to their glory days.Jay Zygmunt has shown in his years in charge that he is not the man to draft and sign the best talent in the NFL to turn around the Rams sinking fortunes."

Zigmunt didn't expand his role to include GM until Martz was gone, he was president of football operations. We can go round and round with this but Zygmunt was with us from 2000-08 the last 3 as GM also. Nobody on here is going to praise the job he did or Devaney but the claims he had more input as OC than he did as HC is humorous.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I'm just curious if people really remember the drafts we had with Martz once he took control over from Vermiel.

I'm sure most fans do (remember).

They remember this (I'll just take the firt 3 rounds):
2000:
* Trung Canidate
* Jacoby Shepard
* John St. Clair
1 for 3 that year (St. Clair)

2001:
* Damione Lewis
* Adam Archulettea
* Ryan Pickett
* Tommy Polley
* Brian Allen
2 out of 5 that year (Lewis and Pickett... if you want to be generous, add Archuletta to make 3 out of 5)

2002:
* Robert Thomas
* Travis Fisher
* Lamar Gordon
* Eric Crouch
0 for 4 that year

2003:
* Jimmy Kennedy
* Pia Tinoisamoa
* Kevin Curtis
1 for 3 that year (Curtis)

2004:
* Steven Jackson
* Anthony Hargrove
1 out of 2 that year (Jackson)

2005:
* Alex Barron
* Ron Bartell
* O.J. Atogwe
* Richie Incognito
2 out of 4 that year (Atogwe and Incognito, which is being generous)

Total tally:
Out of a total opportunity of 21 players, Martz hit on 8. Just plain bad.

So as OC he had major input on the draft and fre agency but he lost that when he was promoted to HC?

If anything, once Martz became HC, he was given more power. It's been well documented that Shaw and Ziggy had ultimate veto power, but they rarely used it. Heck, Shaw was in L.A. and had all but "checked out" and left it to Martz to make those decisions.

Fisher? His overall record as a HC certainly could make you a little worried whether he can field a team that can consistently get above .500. And, the fact that his Rams teams have run into problems (some outside his control, some inside his control) could make you a little concerned.

Martz is behind us... his draft legacy took years to fix (especially since those that followed actually did worse!).

Most Rams fan feel this team... right now... has the potential to finally deliver the goods (playoffs).

I'm excited to get the season started!!! Beat those Seahawks!!!

 

[Rmfnlt]

So i wouldn't want Martz as GM but as HC in a functional FO with a quality GM, hell yeah...

Yes!

But that isn't how it went down and we can't pretend he didn't have a huge part in those really bad draft classes.
I would submit that, had he stayed, the team would have suffered - even with his offensive schemes. The roster went that bad that fast.

And, as you said, it only got worse (drafting) after he left... that is what it has taken Fisher and Snead years to get to respectability.

 

[RamFan503]

Martz inherited a Super Bowl winning team. I don't want to speak ill of Martz but citing his record doesn't mean much. Martz was a great offensive mind but not a good or great HC and played a part (albeit not a huge one) in running this team into the ground.

I'll take Fisher as a HC over Martz. I'd take Martz as a coordinator over Fisher. I don't consider Martz to be a true head coach. He was an OC thrust in that role. Kind of like Norv Turner.

Couldn't agree more with you here.

 

[MrMotes]

I would submit that, had he stayed, the team would have suffered

It's hard to imagine we would've suffered more than we have. I don't know what would've happened if Martz had stayed. I only know what actually happened:

Martz won over 60% of the games he coached, took us to the playoffs 4/5 years and to a SB.

Since he was fired we've had:

Linehan who lost 70% of the time
Spagnulo who lost 80% of the time
Fisher who's lost 57% of his games.

We've had zero winning seasons and zero playoff appearances in the 9+ seasons since Martz.

I can't say what might have been. I only know what was...

 

[Rams43]

I've had my issues with Fisher as our HC.

Mostly the slow starts and career .525 winning percentage.

But I've really liked many of his other moves and decisions, too.

For example, CoachO praised the effect that Weinke, Garcia, and Boras seemed to be having on our O development.

I liked those first 2 moves at the time a great deal. I was a little worried about Boras conflicting with Cigs when his new responsibilities were announced.

But after reading CoachO's observations I'm thinking that maybe Fisher gave some deep thought to how best to improve our O last January and came up with a possibly brilliant combo in Cigs, Weinke, Garcia, and Boras.

We'll see.

 

[dieterbrock]

Yup, martz took us to the playoffs 4 of the 5 full seasons that he hc'd
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/MartMi0.htm

And the year he didnt take us to the playoffs the Rams came back from an 0-5 start to get back to 5-5
Martz worst record as a HC is just about as good as any HC's BEST record in the last decade
He won a lot.
No reason to think he wouldnt have continued to after he left.

 

[MrMotes]

And the year he didnt take us to the playoffs the Rams came back from an 0-5 start to get back to 5-5
Martz worst record as a HC is just about as good as any HC's BEST record in the last decade
He won a lot.
No reason to think he wouldnt have continued to after he left.

And it's just about mathematically impossible to do worse than Linehan and Spagnulo...

 

[Ram65]

On Fisher...

I would like to see the Rams start the season with some intensity which they lacked last year. Fisher is a well known players coach. He doesn't seem like a tough in your face type coach. He may be too easy on players. He now has some talent that Snead helped pick out. Fisher and Snead have stabilized the Rams and the draft process. Fisher has to get the Rams intensity level up every game. I think players like playing for him but I'm not sure that is enough. I'm not sure the players are conditioned enough for the competitive NFL. He has been very competitive in a tough division but not over all. I think Fisher has been good for the Rams. Is he good enough to get them over the .500 hump and into the playoffs? This year we should find out.

On Martz....ancient history that everyone won't agree on.

 

[Rmfnlt]

On Fisher...

I would like to see the Rams start the season with some intensity which they lacked last year. Fisher is a well known players coach. He doesn't seem like a tough in your face type coach. He may be too easy on players. He now has some talent that Snead helped pick out. Fisher and Snead have stabilized the Rams and the draft process. Fisher has to get the Rams intensity level up every game. I think players like playing for him but I'm not sure that is enough. I'm not sure the players are conditioned enough for the competitive NFL. He has been very competitive in a tough division but not over all. I think Fisher has been good for the Rams. Is he good enough to get them over the .500 hump and into the playoffs? This year we should find out.

I'm guessing we'll know very quickly if Fisher can get the intensity level up. The first game is critical... if they are not fired up and play well, we'll continue to wonder.

On Martz....ancient history that everyone won't agree on.

Got that one right!!

 

[dieterbrock]

On Martz....ancient history that everyone won't agree on.

Great point

I dont like terms like "make or break" year, but what has held back Fisher over the last 2 seasons is not an excuse this year. Fish has 4 QB in camp competing for 3 positions. Even with Foles being the defacto starter, his success or lack thereof is on the coaching staff.
Cant see how this team doesnt win at least 9 games this year and all this stuff is moot.