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iced

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Have they ever tried to encourage a team to relocate before? I think no matter how things end up, they'll need to move into some uncharted territory.

trying to figure out how rams moving to LA and the owners chipping in extra money to help Davis move to St.Louis (he can't afford it on his own) + waiving or reducing the relocation fee's (taking more money out of their pockets) meets their mantra of "not whats best for one owner but for all 32"

I sincerely doubt they're gonna play musical cities with the teams - most likely one stadium is gonna be built in LA, and i doubt anyone move cross country to stl
 

RamFan503

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@RamFan503 going back to our earlier discussion of 1 business or 32 individuals - this is another way of saying the same thing
First off, that is not what the case that ended in 2007 was about. Second, the reporter inserts Ganis as a name and then goes on to insert his own perspective. He's partially right but partially wrong. They are a part of an association. The teams are not owned nor operated by the NFL and are run as individual businesses. Do they enter into agreements as a group (association)? - sure. And even if Ganis did state this, just who the hell is he?

He also puts in the figures as if Stan would not have to pay back the G4 monies. I think we've long established that is not true. The league would get $400 million in free public money? I guess the $200 million G4 loan just falls from the sky because according to this guy, Stan doesn't have to pay it and the NFL is getting $400 million in free money from the NFL.

I'm not going to look at some blog written in a San Diego newspaper website and consider it a legal opinion. The proof will come if it's challenged - not in a newspaper article unless it is directly quoting legal decisions. I've read the actual decisions in both the 2007 case and in the case we discussed earlier.

I also find it interesting that Ganis still does "independent Sports consulting" or at least is constantly quoted as "helping the Rams and Raiders during their move out of Los Angeles but does anyone actually know what he did to "help"? Apparently he was fired by the Raiduhs because he falsified his credentials.

Ganis falsified his credentials by claiming he had a law degree and a master's degree in business administration. Syracuse University officials said Ganis attended classes only periodically between 1980 and 1987, - LA Times

So how is it that Ganis is some kind of legal authority? He "helped" produce marketing studies aimed to help the Raiders and Rams make a case for a move. He's done some other "consulting" work as well I suppose - I guess. And of course he has the same law degree and masters degree that I have. I honestly have to think that this guy is a total sham artist/media whore. Try to find anything real on the guy.
 

iced

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First off, that is not what the case that ended in 2007 was about. Second, the reporter inserts Ganis as a name and then goes on to insert his own perspective. He's partially right but partially wrong. They are a part of an association. The teams are not owned nor operated by the NFL and are run as individual businesses. Do they enter into agreements as a group (association)? - sure. And even if Ganis did state this, just who the hell is he?

They mentioned it in the article and I thought i left it in there - he was a consultant for the Rams and raiders when the left LA

He also puts in the figures as if Stan would not have to pay back the G4 monies. I think we've long established that is not true.
i think this is the general presumption by a lot of people when it comes to the g4 loan because it automatically comes out of the revenue at a certain percentage yearly. That's how they've recouped their money through some/most deals
The league would get $400 million in free public money? I guess the $200 million G4 loan just falls from the sky because according to this guy, Stan doesn't have to pay it and the NFL is getting $400 million in free money from the NFL.

think they're referring to the city's bonds - that's free to them because they're not paying for it.

I also find it interesting that Ganis still does "independent Sports consulting" or at least is constantly quoted as "helping the Rams and Raiders during their move out of Los Angeles but does anyone actually know what he did to "help"? Apparently he was fired by the Raiduhs because he falsified his credentials.

Ganis falsified his credentials by claiming he had a law degree and a master's degree in business administration. Syracuse University officials said Ganis attended classes only periodically between 1980 and 1987, - LA Times

So how is it that Ganis is some kind of legal authority? He "helped" produce marketing studies aimed to help the Raiders and Rams make a case for a move. He's done some other "consulting" work as well I suppose - I guess. And of course he has the same law degree and masters degree that I have. I honestly have to think that this guy is a total sham artist/media whore. Try to find anything real on the guy.

lol interesting - did not know that. but if he helped the rams move out of LA in 1995, i wonder if they got that straightened out or whatever reason they rehired him
 

Legatron4

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Have they ever tried to encourage a team to relocate before? I think no matter how things end up, they'll need to move into some uncharted territory.



I'd say it's only half time, nothing even close to done yet.

Although you're a truck driver aren't you? If they do move, maybe take some deliveries out to LA to see them? I really don't know how trucking works other than there's like 50 freaking gear shifts or some crazy crap haha.
Lol that's a good memory you got there man. I'm technically a "Van Driver". So no gear shifting for me haha I wouldn't mind going to LA for a game. But it's just nearly impossible to go to afford one now for me. Idk, stop moving teams! Just keep it the same.
 

RamFan503

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They mentioned it in the article and I thought i left it in there - he was a consultant for the Rams and raiders when the left LA
Nah - I read that. In fact, I've read virtually that exact thing in several articles. And not a one of them mentions any more than that about HOW he helped or what he actually did/does. He doesn't even seem to have a bio out there anywhere. In fact, I can't find where his business "Sportscorp" even actually exists.

i think this is the general presumption by a lot of people when it comes to the g4 loan because it automatically comes out of the revenue at a certain percentage yearly. That's how they've recouped their money through some/most deals
But it doesn't. Apparently some earlier wording in the G3 said something to the effect but the G4 has to be paid back by the owner IIRR within 15 years or upon selling the team - whichever comes first. It also is not a zero interest loan. Again IIRR it is either prime rate or somehow tied to the prime rate.
think they're referring to the city's bonds - that's free to them because they're not paying for it.
I get that. But if his premise that the G4 is free money to Stan from the NFL then it would have to be a reduction in that "free" public money they are getting - no? IOW - let's just say for discussion that the NFL is getting $400 million from Missouri in "free" public money. But they are "giving" Stan $200 million through the G4. Wouldn't you logically say that they are netting $200 million? And if that is the case - which it's not - then wouldn't the NFL be better off with a $500 million relocation fee that actually IS paid to them?

More accurately I would think, is that the NFL might want Stan to stay because they will get the "free" public money plus whatever interest off the G4 loan if Stan stays and takes the loan (which he might refuse). But that G4 money comes from somewhere and must be paid back.

lol interesting - did not know that. but if he helped the rams move out of LA in 1995, i wonder if they got that straightened out or whatever reason they rehired him
Thing is, try to find a bio on the guy. Also, try to find where anyone has identified him as someone THEY were actually working with and under what capacity. I've honestly never seen such a lack of background on any supposed high profile consultant.
 

iced

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But it doesn't. Apparently some earlier wording in the G3 said something to the effect but the G4 has to be paid back by the owner IIRR within 15 years or upon selling the team - whichever comes first. It also is not a zero interest loan. Again IIRR it is either prime rate or somehow tied to the prime rate.

It's a rate also with an option to extend to 25 years

Looking to find the other stuff in the loans from other teams. Couldn't find anything on niners, vikings source link didn't work, here is what the falcons have on it

http://newstadium.atlantafalcons.com/funding2/g-4-stadium-financing/

"On Tuesday, May 21, 2013, NFL owners voted to provide the Atlanta Falcons with $200 million for their new stadium under the League’s G-4 Financing Plan. The G-4 financing plan is based on a provision in the new collective bargaining agreement that allows up to 1.5% of league revenue to be credited for new stadium costs.

The NFL’s $200 million contribution includes a $100 million loan that can be repaid over 15 years from the league’s share of the increased revenue generated in the new stadium, a $50 million grant that does not have to be repaid and a $50 million loan that the team repays.

In general, NFL teams pay 34 percent of home gate receipts into the league’s revenue-sharing pool, which is distributed equally to all clubs. But the NFL waives its 34 percent share of revenue from premium seats and its share of the incremental increase in other gate revenue for the first 15 years in a new stadium, allowing those funds to instead go toward repaying G-4 loans. The team is responsible for any shortfall if new revenue proves insufficient."

Forgot the G4 Loan also has Free grants in it

And some more goodies

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2011/12/4761_nfl_establishes.html
  • The new loan program — which actually will be called "G-4" — ups the maximum loan level from $150 million per team under the old plan to a maximum of $200 million under the new one. Only projects costing at least $400 million, and with a "private contribution" from the team of at least $200 million, will be eligible for the top loan level

  • As under G-3, teams can repay the loan with club seat money they normally would have had to share with the league. They can now also use incremental regular ticket revenue, defined as the difference between ticket sales in the new stadium and average sales in the last three years of the old one.
  • "The project must not involve any relocation of or change in an affected club's 'home territory.'" That's in keeping with the old G-3 plan's goal of aiding teams in building new stadiums in their existing hometowns (to avoid the kind of city-hopping that gave us the St. Louis Rams and Tennessee Titans). Still, it's worth noting that this means theMinnesota Vikings, for example, can access $200 million in G-4 loans for a new stadium in Minnesota, but not for one in, say, Los Angeles
I get that. But if his premise that the G4 is free money to Stan from the NFL then it would have to be a reduction in that "free" public money they are getting - no? IOW - let's just say for discussion that the NFL is getting $400 million from Missouri in "free" public money. But they are "giving" Stan $200 million through the G4. Wouldn't you logically say that they are netting $200 million? And if that is the case - which it's not - then wouldn't the NFL be better off with a $500 million relocation fee that actually IS paid to them?

Never said the g4 was free money - the city bonds are. And I would fully expect the relocation for Stan to be $500, which has been rumored as so.

The loan isn't "free money" but it most certainly makes things significantly easier on owners - and it does provide more incentive to stay.

More accurately I would think, is that the NFL might want Stan to stay because they will get the "free" public money plus whatever interest off the G4 loan if Stan stays and takes the loan (which he might refuse). But that G4 money comes from somewhere and must be paid back.

I think they want the Rams to stay for multiple reasons:

-they don't want to deal with the potential backlash of a team alienating a market that's willing to spend a lot of Public money to build a stadium

-That doesn't show "acting in good faith" as part of the relocation rules

-I can't imagine Spanos or Davis allowing Kroenke to essentially jump ahead of them in line to LA - especially with those owners actually working in good faith for 10+ years in their cities.. they've been working on their stadiums atleast twice as long as Kroenke has been an owner

-They've said it over and over again, they're going to do what's best for all 32... I see the other owners placating those two owners before 1 (whom of which has an offer on the table), which would be tapping into another teams market while abandoning one at the same time. While it's not their whole market, 1/4 of their season ticket sales (which may include PSL's) is dollars to owners, and that's all they care about.

-If the other owners see St.Louis offering a legit stadium that meets NFL standards, I think that's the biggest sticking point on whether he goes or not
 

MrMotes

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Vinnie has a gut feeling the Rams would like to move?

I've been taking that as a virtual given ever since the Inglewood stadium was announced, if not before...
 

RamFan503

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@iced - all good points. I'll look into that information provided in the Atlanta article. Otherwise, I like where you are coming from on most of this. One small point though. If you've watched how Spanos has dealt with SD, I'm not sure how it translates to good faith. And though Mark is not Al, do we really need to argue good faith in that whole dysfunctional family?

Anyway, we'll talk later. I'm in a bit of a mood and my panties are getting too tight around my junk.

Cheers man.
 

HornsUp

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Vinnie has a gut feeling the Rams would like to move?

I've been taking that as a virtual given ever since the Inglewood stadium was announced, if not before...
Vinne is just a guy he has no creditability. One minute he says the Rams will stay put the other he says the Rams will move. Same with SD and OAK. He has 1,500 followers on Twitter. He's trying to get more followers so he's taking all sides and sending mixed signals. He writes for the LA daily news which is a joke compared to the LA Times. A couple of days ago he said that Stan might build in Inglewood but not move the Rams there. He's lost. I can't take anything he says seriously.
 

bluecoconuts

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Lol that's a good memory you got there man. I'm technically a "Van Driver". So no gear shifting for me haha I wouldn't mind going to LA for a game. But it's just nearly impossible to go to afford one now for me. Idk, stop moving teams! Just keep it the same.

Start saving now, if they move you'll be able to afford it.:LOL:
 

bluecoconuts

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trying to figure out how rams moving to LA and the owners chipping in extra money to help Davis move to St.Louis (he can't afford it on his own) + waiving or reducing the relocation fee's (taking more money out of their pockets) meets their mantra of "not whats best for one owner but for all 32"

I sincerely doubt they're gonna play musical cities with the teams - most likely one stadium is gonna be built in LA, and i doubt anyone move cross country to stl

Mostly because the relocation fees from the Rams/Raiders/Chargers plus not needing to dish out 400 million in loans for Carson can outweigh the fees of the Raiders/Chargers (I don't see how they can afford 500 million, in fact I think that Inglewood happens, the Chargers may move in 2018 at a reduced relocation fee that they can afford because the Rams have already been there) plus needing to dish out 600 million in loans. Assuming they change the G4 loans they get 500 million from the Rams, lets say 1-200 million from the Chargers, minus 200 million in loans for the Raiders, for a net gain of 4-500 million. That can make a reduced/waived relocation fee easier to swallow.

I dunno, the entire thing is incredibly complicated. I just think of the three cities Oakland has the least likely chance of getting their shit together, which is a shame because the Raiders seem to be the most dedicated to their city. Versus the Rams who seem to be the least dedicated and St Louis seems to have the highest chance of getting their shit together. If Oakland can't do it, then the Raiders probably look to leave, especially if there's such an attractive option in St Louis.

St Louis+ LA > LA + Oakland
 

Hacksaw

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Lol that's a good memory you got there man. I'm technically a "Van Driver". So no gear shifting for me haha I wouldn't mind going to LA for a game. But it's just nearly impossible to go to afford one now for me. Idk, stop moving teams! Just keep it the same.
In a perfect world this would never happen.
I've been where you are. It very well may still work out.
 

2105

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Vinne is just a guy he has no creditability. One minute he says the Rams will stay put the other he says the Rams will move. Same with SD and OAK. He has 1,500 followers on Twitter. He's trying to get more followers so he's taking all sides and sending mixed signals. He writes for the LA daily news which is a joke compared to the LA Times. A couple of days ago he said that Stan might build in Inglewood but not move the Rams there. He's lost. I can't take anything he says seriously.

Yet he has broken news on the stadium fronts more than once.
He also took the time to travel to Stl to learn more. Seems like a decent source.
 

HornsUp

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Yet he has broken news on the stadium fronts more than once.
He also took the time to travel to Stl to learn more. Seems like a decent source.
I doubt that. He's never broken news. He just gives his opinion. Like "my gut feeling is the Rams want to move to LA" the LA daily news flew him to STL to figure that out? He's a blogger that works for the daily news.

Guys like Sam Farmer are legit.

For example Bernie has 80k followers compared to vinnes 1,500. Sam Farmer has 35k. That's telling.
 

The Ripper

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Vinnie was challenged to go out and do some investigative journalism so he must have finally read the original relocation agreement and the amended lease from 2007.

This was a few pages back on Marc Ganis he's also worked with the Steelers, Rockets and the Yankees. His stance on relocation has certainly changed over the years. It almost seem like he's trying to get a job from the NFL because he likes to parrot the NFL's beliefs even though they have been proved incorrect over and over again.
 
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