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blue4

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Vinny Bonsignore was in STL this past week and he had some interest tweets today.






Vinny has been more pessimistic about the Rams relocating so I am wondering what he heard or saw that has swayed him. Now he isn't saying anything definitely but the tone of his tweets seem to have changed. He said he is working on an article about his past week here so I will interested in reading it. He was very complimentary to the Midwest hospitality he received while in town.


I've thought this has been obvious for weeks. They've bought the land, made the presentation, got the plans. They've even coincidently do their practicing there this year. They barely acknowledge St Louis exists, they have to force Stan's minion Demoff to attend meetings. In my opinion, it's been obvious for a long time now the organization and Stan want nothing to do with a stadium in StL.
 

blue4

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If they waive the relocation fee wouldn't the Raiders just have to come up with 250 million? The G4 rules aren't exactly written in stone, lots of grey area there.
 

bluecoconuts

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Stan's minion Demoff to attend meetings.

I feel like Demoff is a bit more than simply Kroenke's minion. Not just because he obviously does a lot with the team and was there before Kroenke became majority owner, but I think of Kroenke was to consider advice from anyone in the organization it would be him, then Fisher and then Snead.

However I think that if given the option of Los Angeles or St Louis Demoff would select Los Angeles. He, like Jeff Fisher, was born and raised in Los Angeles. In fact Demoff broke into football with the LA Avengers, so his inside information would probably be quite valuable to Kroenke.

Ultimately Demoff would indeed do whatever Kroenke wanted, and would be happy in either city, but it is interesting how 2/3 "big three" among the staff are from LA.
 

blue4

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That is interesting, is there any change in how the Rams have been marketing themselves to the city or anything? To be honest whenever I've been there I've never seen anything, but I've never looked either. Plus I'm out west towards Wildwood/Pacific. I know LA has Dodger and Kings billboards up all over as part of their marketing strategies, maybe it was something like that? Interesting how he may be flippungt on that.

Ultimately I agree the NFL probably wants to look out for Spanos because he's played ball with the other owners for so long. It may have to come down to "look man, Inglewood is gonna happen, you gotta hitch on now or at least drop Carson and we'll keep it open for you." To get him to team up but Billionaires often have their egos.

Either way it'll be interesting to see what happens when the dust settles.

I grew up in Pacific. When I was a kid there was no such thing as Wildwood, just unincorporated land. It's a nice area. I'm a little east of you in the Valley Park/Ballwin area.
 

blue4

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I feel like Demoff is a bit more than simply Kroenke's minion. Not just because he obviously does a lot with the team and was there before Kroenke became majority owner, but I think of Kroenke was to consider advice from anyone in the organization it would be him, then Fisher and then Snead.

However I think that if given the option of Los Angeles or St Louis Demoff would select Los Angeles. He, like Jeff Fisher, was born and raised in Los Angeles. In fact Demoff broke into football with the LA Avengers, so his inside information would probably be quite valuable to Kroenke.

Ultimately Demoff would indeed do whatever Kroenke wanted, and would be happy in either city, but it is interesting how 2/3 "big three" among the staff are from LA.

I reserve the right to call anyone trying to move my team a minion.
 

HornsUp

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I feel like Demoff is a bit more than simply Kroenke's minion. Not just because he obviously does a lot with the team and was there before Kroenke became majority owner, but I think of Kroenke was to consider advice from anyone in the organization it would be him, then Fisher and then Snead.

However I think that if given the option of Los Angeles or St Louis Demoff would select Los Angeles. He, like Jeff Fisher, was born and raised in Los Angeles. In fact Demoff broke into football with the LA Avengers, so his inside information would probably be quite valuable to Kroenke.

Ultimately Demoff would indeed do whatever Kroenke wanted, and would be happy in either city, but it is interesting how 2/3 "big three" among the staff are from LA.
Wow Kevin is from LA? That's a nugget I did not know that.
 

bluecoconuts

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Wow Kevin is from LA? That's a nugget I did not know that.

Yup, not sure which area specifically, but it was somewhere in LA. That part isn't as important as him having experience marketing and working for a football team in Los Angeles though. The LA Avengers were pretty successful during his time with the team as well. After he left they went downhill though.
 

iced

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Mostly because the relocation fees from the Rams/Raiders/Chargers plus not needing to dish out 400 million in loans for Carson can outweigh the fees of the Raiders/Chargers (I don't see how they can afford 500 million, in fact I think that Inglewood happens, the Chargers may move in 2018 at a reduced relocation fee that they can afford because the Rams have already been there) plus needing to dish out 600 million in loans. Assuming they change the G4 loans they get 500 million from the Rams, lets say 1-200 million from the Chargers, minus 200 million in loans for the Raiders, for a net gain of 4-500 million. That can make a reduced/waived relocation fee easier to swallow.

I dunno, the entire thing is incredibly complicated. I just think of the three cities Oakland has the least likely chance of getting their crap together, which is a shame because the Raiders seem to be the most dedicated to their city. Versus the Rams who seem to be the least dedicated and St Louis seems to have the highest chance of getting their crap together. If Oakland can't do it, then the Raiders probably look to leave, especially if there's such an attractive option in St Louis.

St Louis+ LA > LA + Oakland

Except Oakland can't afford to leave. He'd need to input $450 million just for the stadium in st.louis - that doesn't include relocation fee's and the actual cost of moving. Raiders are stuck in Oakland unless Carson comes through. If the Raiders could afford to move to St.Louis, I think they would have had a stadium in Oakland by now.

If the Carson project comes through, I'd be very surprised if Spanos and Davis weren't awarded LA and Kroenke was allowed to leave the St.Louis market with where the stadium deals are. Not to mention everything else I mentioned here:
I think they want the Rams to stay for multiple reasons:

-they don't want to deal with the potential backlash of a team alienating a market that's willing to spend a lot of Public money to build a stadium

-That doesn't show "acting in good faith" as part of the relocation rules

-I can't imagine Spanos or Davis allowing Kroenke to essentially jump ahead of them in line to LA - especially with those owners actually working in good faith for 10+ years in their cities.. they've been working on their stadiums atleast twice as long as Kroenke has been an owner
-They've said it over and over again, they're going to do what's best for all 32... I see the other owners placating those two owners before 1 (whom of which has an offer on the table), which would be tapping into another teams market while abandoning one at the same time. While it's not their whole market, 1/4 of their season ticket sales (which may include PSL's) is dollars to owners, and that's all they care about.

-If the other owners see St.Louis offering a legit stadium that meets NFL standards, I think that's the biggest sticking point on whether he goes or not

Carson + St.Louis to me seems easier, Maximizes revenue by maintaining LA AND St.Louis markets (SF has bay area still, Chargers would help bring SD Market).

And if somehow if Kroenke were actually to get past the relocation guidelines (good faith, viable stadium on the table) and jump to the head of the line, the NFL would be leaving the St.Louis market, leaving Davis and Spanos to continue spending more years negotiating with their cities.. That's not maximizing revenue and kinda screwing the other owners. It's not like a bunch of billionaires are going to say no to money (reduce fees) nor foolishly spend it (help davis move). No one's gonna help Davis move, especially that family.
 

blue4

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Except Oakland can't afford to leave. He'd need to input $450 million just for the stadium in st.louis - that doesn't include relocation fee's and the actual cost of moving. Raiders are stuck in Oakland unless Carson comes through. If the Raiders could afford to move to St.Louis, I think they would have had a stadium in Oakland by now.

If the Carson project comes through, I'd be very surprised if Spanos and Davis weren't awarded LA and Kroenke was allowed to leave the St.Louis market with where the stadium deals are. Not to mention everything else I mentioned here:


Carson + St.Louis to me seems easier, Maximizes revenue by maintaining LA AND St.Louis markets (SF has bay area still, Chargers would help bring SD Market).

And if somehow if Kroenke were actually to get past the relocation guidelines (good faith, viable stadium on the table) and jump to the head of the line, the NFL would be leaving the St.Louis market, leaving Davis and Spanos to continue spending more years negotiating with their cities.. That's not maximizing revenue and kinda screwing the other owners. It's not like a bunch of billionaires are going to say no to money (reduce fees) nor foolishly spend it (help davis move). No one's gonna help Davis move, especially that family.

We're not asking Stan for $450 million outright. Why would Davis have to get that? I agree it's unlikely that they move here, but I don't think he'd need to get that much. The G4 loan would cover half that.
 

iced

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We're not asking Stan for $450 million outright. Why would Davis have to get that? I agree it's unlikely that they move here, but I don't think he'd need to get that much. The G4 loan would cover half that.

The whole point of the G4 is to help the teams stay in their cities. That's why the guidelines say it doesn't apply to teams that leave their market -hence, they wouldn't be eligible.

Again, that 450 doesn't even include relocation fee's (Which is highly unlikely they'd waive)...

Davis is stuck in oakland or carson as it stands for now
 

blue4

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The whole point of the G4 is to help the teams stay in their cities. That's why the guidelines say it doesn't apply to teams that leave their market -hence, they wouldn't be eligible.

Again, that 450 doesn't even include relocation fee's (Which is highly unlikely they'd waive)...

Davis is stuck in oakland or carson as it stands for now

There's no reason to talk about Carson then. Neither one of those teams quality so how can Carson even be on the table without the NFL being open to play with the rules.

Besides, in a very real way it would be used to pay to keep a team in this market.
 

iced

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There's no reason to talk about Carson then. Neither one of those teams quality so how can Carson even be on the table without the NFL being open to play with the rules.

Besides, in a very real way it would be used to pay to keep a team in this market.

Not sure about that - last word was the chargers are likely to get the g4 loan

And I fail to see how it would be used to pay to keep a team in this market when you still have to get an owner who is: a) willing to move, b) can afford it, c)wants to
 
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blue4

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Not sure about that - last word was the chargers are likely to get the g4 loan

And I fail to see how it would be used to pay to keep a team in this market when you still have to get an owner who is: a) willing to move, b) can afford it, c)wants to

That's my point. The Chargers shouldn't be able to use it for Carson, but they are. So why not the Raiders for here? And were it approved for that use, the reasoning probably would that moving a team here would be "keeping" a team in a market.
 

The Ripper

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I have been searching for a direct quote from someone from the NFL in regards to G4 for both teams in Carson so far Grubman has said the teams would be eligible if they meet the criteria. The quote that G4 was available came from Fabiani.
 

Moostache

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And I fail to see how it would be used to pay to keep a team in this market when you still have to get an owner who is: a) willing to move, b) can afford it, c)wants to
Its all good...I have said it before in this thread and still believe this, when you are trying to read tea leaves and determine who is going to get what, the safest bet is to assume the guy with the least cash available is the one that will take it on the chin.

Mark Davis is financially non-viable in the current NFL. Hell, Spanos is not too far behind him in that regard, but he is better liked by the other owners. Kroenke is not making himself popular with these moves and silence; but, in the end, he has the "jack" to force a positive resolution to this whole mess.

Start with the very basic proposition that Kroenke does not care - about the Rams team or players or staff, the fans, the other owners, nothing. His actions to date support this proposition unreservedly. To him, owning an NFL team in L.A. - ANY team - is the thing people are convinced that he wants. He certainly wants to develop the land in Inglewood. He also thinks that having more money - than the $6B+ he already has, as he nears 70 years old, and his life expectancy is less than a decade - is the most important thing in life...good for him, I am sure that his pyramid will be epic and they can stuff all his things in there with his rotting corpse soon enough.

From that simple set of propositions, everything else is relatively easy to envision to have the Raiders and Chargers in L.A. and the Rams in St. Louis. Davis is the long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs and he will be the loser in the end. Davis is going to be forced out. Initially, Inglewood will be denied. The Rams will be sold to local ownership, which will pick up the private investment portion of the Riverside stadium. After Kroenke sells the Rams, the NFL's other owners will facilitate the acquistion of the Raiders with a green light for Inglewood, the Carson partnership will crumble and the Chargers will be faced with three possibilities - 1) move ahead with Carson on their own, 2) accept a deal to join Kroenke's Raiders in Ingelwood or 3) stay in San Diego and accept the fact that they will be second fiddle in Southern California no matter what.

The best bet for the Chargers honestly is to stay in San Diego. There is enough animosity between SD and LA to fuel an increased rivalry with the Raiders (over and above the existing one) and the San Diego fans and city proper may be willing to make a long term deal that helps keep them viable regardless of what is going on 100 miles north in LA.

Oakland is the city that has shown the least interest in remaining an NFL city, followed closely by San Diego. Spanos will have options. Davis will not. Put the Raiders franchise in Kroenke's hands and in the city of LA and it will be wildly successful, resurrecting the image of the pillaging pirates of the AFL and Al Davis in the first L.A. stay. Put the Rams in a new stadium with local ownership and Peacock in place as a figurehead and the franchise will be secured for a generation or more in its adopted home. Put the Chargers in a new stadium in San Diego and the NFL gets what it wants - 3 new stadiums, including 2 that will be rotation stadia for the Super Bowl, and secure futures for 3 franchises with no one being forced into a subservient role as a sub-letting tenant of someone else's stadium.

The Rams to L.A. solves nothing. It did when the only team capable of going to L.A. was them. The issue now remains who has the clout and who does not. In this messed up country, money is speech and that means Kroenke has the megaphone, Spanos has a phone, and Davis is sitting around with two cans connected by a string.
 

OldSchool

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Yup, not sure which area specifically, but it was somewhere in LA. That part isn't as important as him having experience marketing and working for a football team in Los Angeles though. The LA Avengers were pretty successful during his time with the team as well. After he left they went downhill though.

All his bio says is born and raised in Los Angeles.
 

Hacksaw

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I have been searching for a direct quote from someone from the NFL in regards to G4 for both teams in Carson so far Grubman has said the teams would be eligible if they meet the criteria. The quote that G4 was available came from Fabiani.

That's the big if. Is LA SD's or Oak's hometown? NO.
 
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