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Goose

GoosesGanders
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In what way? I have to admit that I don't really get the politics of your region. Was there something glaring that the Governor didn't see when he vetoed the bill? Or was there some sort of statement he was making by vetoing it when maybe he knew it would pass anyway?

You can leave the gun issue totally out of it if you'd like as I don't want this to turn political. I'm more interested in the dynamics in MO in regards to overriding a veto.

I am not a very political person mostly because I just get pissed off especially with the way this city has been run over the years. I am not sure a lot of folks realize that there is a lot of old money that runs this city. The Busch family has kept a lot of things in this city status quo because they had the power. I think the AB being sold has been one of the best things to happen to this city. A lot of doors are starting to open up now. So just reading the process of what the bill was for, why Nixon veto'd it, and then the special session to overrule it was just interesting to read. SB 656 allows open carry to be legal through out Missouri, it also lowers the age to apply for a conceal and carry permit from 21 to 19, limits law-enforcements ability to search and disarm citizens without reason to suspect criminal activity, healthcare works can no longer inquire if a patient has access or owns a fire arm, and finally it allows trained individuals who work at a school to carry at the school in over to protect the students. The last line item is the one that Nixon really had a problem with. Nixons said "Arming teachers will not make our schools safer. I have supported and will continue to support the use of duly authorized law enforcement officers employed as school resource officers, but I cannot condone putting firearms in the hands of educators who would be focused on teaching our kids."

For the group I am not trying to start a political debate so please don't allow this to derail the current conversation.
 

blue4

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I would pay 3-4 a year too. I think a football team is good for the city and its gives the people something to do on the weekends. Jefferson city raised their taxes what was it 400mill? To renovate arrowhead. Why doesn't STL just do the same and vote if it means so much to the ppl?

To be honest, I'm not sure it's as simple as that. St Louis, Kansas City, Jefferson City and Springfield sometimes operate under very different guidelines. And I believe KC only voted for that after failing to get state help.
 

blue4

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I think the AB being sold has been one of the best things to happen to this city. A lot of doors are starting to open up now.

:double:
:shooting:

Haven't seen many doors open yet.

However, I've seen a shitload close. What doors are you referring to, in regards to the stadium? (you're right, anything other than the stadium would be derailing)
 

drasconis

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JA
http://m.stltoday.com/news/opinion/...cle_04be6b80-d574-5b80-a954-87fa10d41ec5.html


Downtown stadium dreamin’ — again

It was inevitable. Sooner or later some consultant was going to come up with an estimate on what a great economic driver the new riverfront football stadium was going to be.

This time it turns out to be the Missouri Department of Economic Development. The department estimates a new stadium for the St. Louis Rams will produce a cumulative net return to the state of $295 million over 30 years.

Advertisement: Story Continues Below

Sorry. Been there. Done that.

Let’s go back to 1989, when the drive was on to build what is now called the Edward Jones Dome. John Ashcroft was the governor and the battleground was the Missouri Legislature, just as it is now.

The deal called for selling bonds to borrow $258 million to raise the money needed to build the stadium. The state pitches in $12 million a year for 30 years. The city of St. Louis gives $6 million a year for 30 years and St. Louis County also gives $6 million a year for 30 years. The total cost to retire the bonds will be $720 million when the last payment is made in 2021.

The St. Louis NFL Partnership was the organization running the lobbying campaign to get the money. It hired the consultants who produced the numbers showing how big a money maker the stadium would be for taxpayers.

Their charts showed that in the very first year of debt payments, the state, St. Louis and St. Louis County would realize $13,794,000 more in revenue than they paid in debt retirement.

By this year, 2015, according to their estimates, the state, St. Louis and St. Louis County are collecting $89,337,000 more than they are paying to retire the bonds. A 5 percent annual inflation rate was assumed in the calculations. Has anyone seen all this revenue?

There were many assumptions in the calculations. A key one is “the multiplier effect.” It goes like this: a beer vendor at the ballpark gets paid, and spends part of his money on rent. The landlord spends part of that money on a car. The car dealer spends part of that money to pay his salesmen. Each step generates tax revenue.

The multiplier used by the Edward Jones Dome consultants projected impressive results. But as one consultant said in his report: “These are forecasts that like all forecasts are well-informed guesses about what the future will bring. No analyst can guarantee that his or her forecast will prove out.”

When Ashcroft signed the subsidy bill on July 14, 1989, he said, “I have in the past expressed significant reservations about this bill, and some of those reservations remain.” But he signed anyway. An aide said “some very important people (read campaign contributors) wanted this, no matter what.”

There has never been a postmortem on the Edward Jones Dome guesswork to see how it checks out. But there is a record of what happened in the dome’s neighborhood in terms of economic development.

The Edward Jones Dome opened in 1995. The St. Louis Centre shopping mall was across the street from the America’s Center convention complex, which includes the dome. The mall closed in 2006 and was rebuilt with more taxpayer money as the Mercantile Exchange. Most of it is a parking garage.

Also across Washington Avenue from America’s Center is the Renaissance Grand Hotel, St. Louis’ premier convention hotel. It opened in 2002 with tens of million of dollars of taxpayer subsidies, but was sold at auction in 2009 to the people who bought the bonds to build it. It couldn’t generate enough income to pay the bond debt.

The only economic development in the Edward Jones Dome neighborhood is the Lumiere Place casino. But the Edward Jones Dome had nothing to do with that. The slots and poker tables were the economic drivers.

Now the promoters of the new stadium want a $350 million bond issue and think they can pay it off with the same $24 million a year. And the taxpayers will have to double up on payments for the Edward Jones Dome and the new stadium until the dome debt ends in 2021.

Sorry. Been there. Done that. Don’t want to get taken again.


And the author of the articles..... correction opinion letter is.....
Fred Lindecke is the spokesman for the Coalition Against Public Funding for Stadiums. He is a retired Post-Dispatch reporter and lives in west St. Louis County.
 

bluecoconuts

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Spanos doesn't have a city trying to build a stadium and has been attempting much,much longer

That's because Spanos shits on everything the city starts to come up with, they have been trying. Spanos has demanded a top of the line billion+ dollar stadium that the city pays for at least half of it, and it's in a specific location. So if it's not that he just shoots it down before they get started. Imagine if Kroenke came out and said "I will only accept a stadium that is downtown AND a top of the line billion dollar stadium AND St Louis must pay for at minimum 60% of it."

The riverfront stadium wouldn't qualify, and it would be dead in the water.

Stan hasn't made any demands as far as I know. I don't think the EJD arbitration can be considered a real offer, as neither side had any intention of continuing the lease. It's mutually beneficial for both sides for the Rams not to be there in the dome.

They said they got some feedback, but importantly he hasn't tried to tank any St Louis projects.

I kinda thought her lumping all StL Rams fans as poor because she talked to a random guy in the street was over the line.

Then you can say something. Attack the post, not the poster, right?
 

Goose

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Haven't seen many doors open yet.

However, I've seen a shitload close. What doors are you referring to, in regards to the stadium? (you're right, anything other than the stadium would be derailing)

The renovation of Washington Avenue, the influx of craft breweries, the Arch ground development, plans to renovate union station, St. Louis was recently voted Best City for startup, and new public transportation trolley system.

http://stlouis.suntimes.com/stl-news/stl-business/7/139/66014/st-louis-named-best-startups-city/
 

iced

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That's because Spanos shits on everything the city starts to come up with, they have been trying. Spanos has demanded a top of the line billion+ dollar stadium that the city pays for at least half of it, and it's in a specific location. So if it's not that he just shoots it down before they get started. Imagine if Kroenke came out and said "I will only accept a stadium that is downtown AND a top of the line billion dollar stadium AND St Louis must pay for at minimum 60% of it."

Got any references to this? because i have a hard time believing that, especially given how California has been when it comes to tax payers money and stadium. I'm not saying that he hasn't made any big demands - i just have a hard time believing the city has put together anything in the past 14 years that would Pass an NFL vote.

Look at what Peacock is doing - working directly with the NFL...you can make the same argument about San Diego's city that people do about St.Louis when it came to arbitration: not truly interested ,thinking the team won't leave, therefore they don't have to make a realistic offer. Except St.Louis has proven their serious (by working directly with the nfl) - i've seen nothing from san diego or oakland to believe such. You would think after 10+ years they'd be more diligent if they were serious
 

bluecoconuts

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Got any references to this? because i have a hard time believing that, especially given how California has been when it comes to tax payers money and stadium. I'm not saying that he hasn't made any big demands - i just have a hard time believing the city has put together anything in the past 14 years that would Pass an NFL vote.

Look at what Peacock is doing - working directly with the NFL...you can make the same argument about San Diego's city that people do about St.Louis when it came to arbitration: not truly interested ,thinking the team won't leave, therefore they don't have to make a realistic offer. Except St.Louis has proven their serious (by working directly with the nfl) - i've seen nothing from san diego or oakland to believe such. You would think after 10+ years they'd be more diligent if they were serious

I'll have to go around and look for them when I have more time, but I know I've seen different articles that discuss different demands he has, and I know that there has been different proposals that never stick. Part in due to San Diego having political issues in the past, and part due to the Chargers floating ideas that have no realistic chance. Similar to the Rams and the CVC thing.

One of the reasons why Peacock is able to work with the NFL is because Kroenke isn't putting out any smear campaigns though, if he was then there's probably a very different story. When San Diego announced a task force, the Chargers put a post on their website blasting it.

The situation in San Diego is far different from the one in St Louis, but just because they're not making proposals doesn't really mean that they're not trying. In terms of getting to where St Louis is, it really wouldn't take much from San Diego. Get some renderings done, and then say that half is coming from the team, and the other half they'll try via public funding that they don't have in place yet. However Spanos has told them don't even bother, not unless they know that the public would fund it. Which obviously is near impossible without a vote.
 

blue4

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The renovation of Washington Avenue, the influx of craft breweries, the Arch ground development, plans to renovate union station, St. Louis was recently voted Best City for startup, and new public transportation trolley system.

http://stlouis.suntimes.com/stl-news/stl-business/7/139/66014/st-louis-named-best-startups-city/

And AB stood in the way of all that? Craft breweries, sure, although one could make a good case that 2000 plus people making a minimum of around $30 an hour with paid health care was much more valuable to the city then some craft breweries. Have you seen what they pay and employ? Not much. The others really don't do anything but benefit beer sales so why would they be against those?
And, more on topic, why on earth would they be against a new stadium?
 

tonyl711

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There is nothing STL can offer Stan that could rival what he will get in LA. Unless they magically make the value of the Rams go up from 32nd to top 10 maybe top 5. He will own the stadium in LA. Whatever event goes on there raging from the final four to motor cross Super Bowl college bowl games etc will go into the pocket of Stan. He's a business man that has invested 100 mil to buy the land and other 1.66 bill to build the thing. He will attract more free agents more prime time games etc. The prestige the pizzaz by owning a NFL team in LA. To say STL will offer him more then that is crazy. He has to give 250 mill not own the stadium and his team might still be worth 32nd in th league. The difference between Spanos and Davis is they keep on saying they want to stay in their city. Stan doesn't talk but doesn't answer phone calls. Kevin Demoff doest even say there no.1 priority is to stay in STL. He doesn't want to stay there. He is just keeping his option open by sending Demoff to talk with peacock just in case the chargers and raiders can't get a stadium and the NFL has no other choice to make him stay in STL assuming they get a stadium. The idea that Stan wants to stay in STL is crazy.
they can offer a stadium and land to develop, the stadium wont cost him a billion or so dollars, and you can bet he will get plenty of land to work with, so he just saved himself 6 or 7 hundred million dollars and got land to develop and guess what, he still has all that land to develop in LA, making money in both places. and tell me how many stars flocked to LA when the Rams were there? no more than any other team. where did you ever see KD saying he doesn't want to stay in St Louis? you do an awful lot of assuming then trying to pass it off as fact.
 

iced

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shoOne of the reasons why Peacock is able to work with the NFL is because Kroenke isn't putting out any smear campaigns though, if he was then there's probably a very different story. When San Diego announced a task force, the Chargers put a post on their website blasting it.

I doubt that - especially since Peacock has been saying Kroenke was initially unresponsive and turned to the NFL for guidance - it was only after that we started hearing about Rams input
The situation in San Diego is far different from the one in St Louis, but just because they're not making proposals doesn't really mean that they're not trying. In terms of getting to where St Louis is, it really wouldn't take much from San Diego. Get some renderings done, and then say that half is coming from the team, and the other half they'll try via public funding that they don't have in place yet. However Spanos has told them don't even bother, not unless they know that the public would fund it. Which obviously is near impossible without a vote.

I'm not saying they're not trying - just to the level of effort. I don't think anyone would deny out of the 3 St.Louis is the most aggressive in getting a deal done - and by far in the shortest time span compared to the others.. That's what i'm talking about

ask yourself - out of the 3 cities who seems the most aggressive in building a stadium? and yes timeline/history is important...

kroenke - about to enter first year to year lease

chargers and oakland - much longer on year to year lease
 

tonyl711

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What? Lol we're taking about the stadium not where he wants to sleep at nights. Besides he has a house in Malibu and he tried to buy the Dogers a while ago. How do you know where he spends his time most of the time?.
and you do know? please enlighten us as you seem to know Stan so well.
 

iced

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Google Stan Kroneke,Dogers,Malibu

Missouri Native.... who when bought the team pledged he would do everything he could to keep the Rams in St.Louis, noted his part in bringing the team to St.Louis, and suggested that "my actions should speak for themselves"
 

Username

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So my post is deleted. Huh. Even though she can openly trash my cities fan base, I can't question her intelligence to comprehend sarcasm.
 

RamBill

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ESPN The Magazine’s David Fleming, who just wrote an in-depth piece on Rams Owner Stan Kroenke and his relationship with St. Louis, joined The Wendy’s Big Show on Friday. Fleming discussed what he learned during the reporting process, the story behind Kroenke and how he got to where he is today.

Listen to Fleming Talk Kroenke
 
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