Michael Sam

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RamFan503

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rams1991 said:
Well said, although he's gotta have some kind of talent to win SEC Defensive Player of the Year, doesn't he?
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I saw an article about a player the other day. I can't recall who it was but he was the defensive player of the year from a major conference and he never played a snap of regular season ball. So I guess it happens.
 
Boffo97

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rams1991 said:
Well said, although he's gotta have some kind of talent to win SEC Defensive Player of the Year, doesn't he?
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Sure, he has to have some sort of talent at the college level, but unfortunately that doesn't always translate into pro level talent.

So far, Sam's career is doing better than Eric Crouch's, and Crouch was a Heisman winner. ;)
 
blue4

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Memento said:
Then you must think that CBS, Walterfootball, NFL.com, and a lot of other people on a lot of other sites were delusional. Because they all had him rated as a third-to-fourth round pick before he came out. If they still had their old picks and I could post them here, I'd gladly show you. And a full chance here? He could and should have definitely beat out Carrington (who did nothing in the preseason and the regular season), while Westbrooks claimed the fourth defensive tackle slot. A full chance in Dallas? People at DE were going on IR there, and Sam was never even brought up to replace them.

As for gay rights gaining traction? Are you kidding me? Gays and lesbians can't even marry in a good portion of the U.S. The suicide rate in LGBT teens is alarming. More than sixty percent of them attempt suicide before they turn eighteen; a good many of them succeed. There are still many parents who kick their own kids out of their house and disown them before they're even old enough to join the military for no reason other than being who they really are. There are many hate crimes that go on with impunity because the victims are too scared to come out or - worse still - they were murdered in cold blood and nobody is willing to take a stand for them. There are no domestic hotlines for battered women and men who happen to be gay or bi-sexual. The police are known to give trans people oppressive treatment in every facet of the law. And let's not even start with bullying and harassment.

I'm not accusing the nation of bias. But it would be a horrible lie to claim that everything is great and that a good portion of the nation aren't insanely prejudiced. And it is a warped mindset.
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Yes you are accusing large number of people of bias. And I didn't say bias isn't a warped mindset, I said your accusation of that mindset in this case is inaccurate. And it would be a horrible lie to diminish all the progress this country has made over really a brief time.

If he wasn't brought up in Dallas, why does that automatically mean bias? Could it be just because he's not that good? Essentially, you are calling that organization biased, despite having no knowledge of Dallas's practices or really anything else about that team or their staff. It's not fair to them just because Sam's career hasn't followed the script some people thought it should.
 
CoachO

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Dieter the Brock said:
Sure
but at the same time there was no need to "come out" before the draft if he didn't want to be part of a media circus - so he basically created it

Now Sam coming out or not come out it's inconsequential to me, but anything that has happened is completely his doing by coming out when he did

I mean if you can't figure out the lead singer of Judas Priest is gay then you're blind - I knew this at age 13 and it didn't stop me from jamming Priest - we all love Rob Halford

This story has finally become what it was meant to be all a long - a non-story

So according to your claim that Sam didn't want the media circus he should be totally comfortable out of the spotlight

Keep in mind there are gay men playing this game right now in the NFL, and there has always been and always will be, not a big deal

Again
Michael Sam - not good player hence no NFL

Rob Halford - great singer in rock hall of fame

It's about talent

View attachment 5345
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The problem with your statement about "him coming out" was that there were enough rumors circulating, and the media would have turned it into a speculative field day. We all know in this day and age, stories don't need any confirmation to be floated. So, rather than the have the "story" be put out there without anything other than rumors, which again, is today's version of the media "breaking a story", he chose to get out in front of it and be the one to "control" the dialogue.

Either way, he was gong to be "outed". I understand completely why Michael Sam felt the need to do what he did. It's one thing to keep a lid on things while playing at Mizzou. It's completely different for a player who was an unanimous All-American, and SEC DPOY to continue to fly under the radar entering the pre-draft hoopla.
 
RamFan503

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CoachO said:
The problem with your statement about "him coming out" was that there were enough rumors circulating, and the media would have turned it into a speculative field day. We all know in this day and age, stories don't need any confirmation to be floated. So, rather than the have the "story" be put out there without anything other than rumors, which again, is today's version of the media "breaking a story", he chose to get out in front of it and be the one to "control" the dialogue.

Either way, he was gong to be "outed". I understand completely why Michael Sam felt the need to do what he did. It's one thing to keep a lid on things while playing at Mizzou. It's completely different for a player who was an unanimous All-American, and SEC DPOY to continue to fly under the radar entering the pre-draft hoopla.
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Y'know - I also get why he would try to cash in to some extent as well. I just don't see the need to keep rehashing this thing. He did what he did. He got a shot and maybe it was a tainted shot. But what I don't get is the need to argue about it here. It's a no win situation as a subject as far as I can see.

Personally I didn't see someone who was so unquestionably good enough that he should be playing in the NFL. So I really couldn't say if he was held back because of his talent or his coming out. And honestly, I don't think anyone else here can either. I know you watch a lot of practices Coach but I'm sure even you would say that after all that, you often scratch your head about who gets a shot and who doesn't.

So then again, what becomes the end game? If he takes part in the vet combine - great. If someone picks him up - great. If someone doesn't - great for the guy who got the shot instead.
 
Dieter the Brock

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CoachO said:
The problem with your statement about "him coming out" was that there were enough rumors circulating, and the media would have turned it into a speculative field day. We all know in this day and age, stories don't need any confirmation to be floated. So, rather than the have the "story" be put out there without anything other than rumors, which again, is today's version of the media "breaking a story", he chose to get out in front of it and be the one to "control" the dialogue.

Either way, he was gong to be "outed". I understand completely why Michael Sam felt the need to do what he did. It's one thing to keep a lid on things while playing at Mizzou. It's completely different for a player who was an unanimous All-American, and SEC DPOY to continue to fly under the radar entering the pre-draft hoopla.
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Okay fair enough. Let's say the Sam felt the need to take action against the "rumors" that were circulating. Okay, fair enough. His choice. God bless the kid. I was happy when we drafted him and he got a shot, but I'm only suggesting that this idea of he as a victim of the media for which he, by his own free will, decided to embrace somehow being the culprit in his failure to make an NFL roster is off base.

Sam had his opportunity and continues to get them. But like Tebow, maybe he is meant for other things that can eventually surpass the mere playing of football -- by in fact embracing his roll in the gay community it is possible Sam can make a bigger difference off the field than on. But to say that the media is responsible for his actions, or that his decisions were driven by rumors belies the fact that he did in fact chose to join up with the media circus - hence the Oprah debacle and the sort of handlers he hired for his career.

He has to bear the consequences for that. Cause in fact, as I have said, there have been other players have been gay and play in the NFL and have played int he NFL with none of this persecution i'm hearing Sam was 'rumored" to have almost suffered.

Look. gusy like Kordell Stewart had those same rumors plaque him and dealt with it on the condition of privacy. Kordell is now on Bravo Network, having a great post-NFL career as a TV personality on Real Housewives of Atlanta. I watch the damn show. I watch the guy perform for the cameras. You could still argue he was gay, but who the f'ck cares. Not me.

Sam chose to be a pioneer for future athletes who will not be judge on their orientation but for their performance. Not the media pressure as many suggest. But either way it doesn't matter cause he decided to "come out" when he did, and take full advantage or disadvantage of what that responsibility meant.

And the truth be told Sam has been given that same opportunity to be judged on his performance and not his orientation but so far as failed. That's his chosen cross to bear.

Michael Sam had (and still has) the opportunity regardless of his orientation to show that he belonged in the NFL.
But as a Ram draftee he clearly lost his job to Ethan Westbrooks, we all saw it with our own eyes. Whatever happened in Dallas was clearly performance based as well.
 
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CoachO

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Dieter the Brock said:
Okay fair enough. Let's say the Sam felt the need to take action against the "rumors" that were circulating. Okay, fair enough. His choice. God bless the kid. I was happy when we drafted him and he got a shot, but I'm only suggesting that this idea of he as a victim of the media for which he, by his own free will, decided to embrace somehow being the culprit in his failure to make an NFL roster is off base.

Sam had his opportunity and continues to get them. But like Tebow, maybe he is meant for other things that can eventually surpass the mere playing of football -- by in fact embracing his roll in the gay community it is possible Sam can make a bigger difference off the field than on. But to say that the media is responsible for his actions, or that his decisions were driven by rumors belies the fact that he did in fact chose to join up with the media circus - hence the Oprah debacle and the sort of handlers he hired for his career.

He has to bear the consequences for that. Cause in fact, as I have said, there have been other players have been gay and play in the NFL and have played int he NFL with none of this persecution i'm hearing Sam was 'rumored" to have almost suffered.

Look. gusy like Kordell Stewart had those same rumors plaque him and dealt with it on the condition of privacy. Kordell is now on Bravo Network, having a great post-NFL career as a TV personality on Real Housewives of Atlanta. I watch the damn show. I watch the guy perform for the cameras. You could still argue he was gay, but who the f'ck cares. Not me.

Sam chose to be a pioneer for future athletes who will not be judge on their orientation but for their performance. Not the media pressure as many suggest. But either way it doesn't matter cause he decided to "come out" when he did, and take full advantage or disadvantage of what that responsibility meant.

And the truth be told Sam has been given that same opportunity to be judged on his performance and not his orientation but so far as failed. That's his chosen cross to bear.

Michael Sam had (and still has) the opportunity regardless of his orientation to show that he belonged in the NFL.
But as a Ram draftee he clearly lost his job to Ethan Westbrooks, we all saw it with our own eyes. Whatever happened in Dallas was clearly performance based as well.
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I am not sure why you seem to be implying that Michael Sam has said the media is what is costing him a chance to play in the NFL. At the same, to say his draft status was NOT impacted dramatically, is naive, IMO.

I watched this kid very closely every day in training camp, and as another poster pointed out, because of the multiple injuries early in camp, Sam got the lion's share of reps at LDE. He took virtually every 2nd AND 3rd unit rep waiting for Wm. Hayes to get healthy. It was pretty apparent to me, that by the 3rd week of camp, he had hit the proverbial wall. Camp legs is a very real thing, and just about the time he was feeling it, Westbrooks found his way back after missing much of the first 2 weeks.

At no time did I ever notice, that Michael Sam was in over his head lining up against NFL players. He excelled early on, then eventually wore down.

I would have enjoyed seeing how he would have fit in after C. Long went down midway thru Week 1. As established at Hayes is, he is not an every down LDE. And he wasn't no where close to being 100% when the season started. If, they would have found a way to keep M. Sam around, I suspect he would have given them than pass rush that was sorely missing the first month of the season. Obviously, we will never know. But its hard to say as a pure pass rush specialist, he lacks the skills to contribute.

Also, as someone else also mentioned, to assume that is all he will ever be is a miscalculation of his ability, IMO. For the first 2+ seasons, Robert Quinn was the poster boy for a "one trick pony", and has since become a very effective every down player. Similar expectations, albeit not at the same high level, are reasonable for someone like a Michael Sam.
 
Dieter the Brock

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CoachO said:
I am not sure why you seem to be implying that Michael Sam has said the media is what is costing him a chance to play in the NFL. At the same, to say his draft status was NOT impacted dramatically, is naive, IMO.

I watched this kid very closely every day in training camp, and as another poster pointed out, because of the multiple injuries early in camp, Sam got the lion's share of reps at LDE. He took virtually every 2nd AND 3rd unit rep waiting for Wm. Hayes to get healthy. It was pretty apparent to me, that by the 3rd week of camp, he had hit the proverbial wall. Camp legs is a very real thing, and just about the time he was feeling it, Westbrooks found his way back after missing much of the first 2 weeks.

At no time did I ever notice, that Michael Sam was in over his head lining up against NFL players. He excelled early on, then eventually wore down.

I would have enjoyed seeing how he would have fit in after C. Long went down midway thru Week 1. As established at Hayes is, he is not an every down LDE. And he wasn't no where close to being 100% when the season started. If, they would have found a way to keep M. Sam around, I suspect he would have given them than pass rush that was sorely missing the first month of the season. Obviously, we will never know. But its hard to say as a pure pass rush specialist, he lacks the skills to contribute.

Also, as someone else also mentioned, to assume that is all he will ever be is a miscalculation of his ability, IMO. For the first 2+ seasons, Robert Quinn was the poster boy for a "one trick pony", and has since become a very effective every down player. Similar expectations, albeit not at the same high level, are reasonable for someone like a Michael Sam.
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Simply - one of Momento's comment

I had originally responded to his proposed idea that the media somehow forced Sam to make a decision to come out when he did and then in turn that coming out has prohibited him from getting NFL opportunities - which it hasn't because he continues to have opportunity

That's all
 
CoachO

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Dieter the Brock said:
Simply - one of Momento's comment

I had originally responded to his proposed idea that the media somehow forced Sam to make a decision to come out when he did and then in turn that coming out has prohibited him from getting NFL opportunities - which it hasn't because he continues to have opportunity

That's all
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Fair enough.

I don't think the media has prevented him from getting NFL opportunities. At least not completely. But I do believe it would be naive to think it hasn't had an impact on the number of opportunities.

When people like Tony Dungy come out and make the statements about not wanting to bring the "distraction" to the locker room, it is a loud and telling statement about how many still feel about the stigma attached to subject.

I agree that there have been other gay players who have played in the NFL, but we all know that the issue of being "out" changes everything. The problem, IMO, isn't with the players, or teammates. It is mostly within the organizations themselves, and not being prepared to deal with the outside influences that are bound to be a part of it.

But again, to think this is strictly about Michael Sam's football ability, I believe is shortsighted.
 
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