Michael Sam

[bluecoconuts]

If so, why can't a gay football player keep his sexual orientation to himself? Has he somehow let down some group or agenda but keep things to his it herself?

That seems like a Don't Ask Don't Tell type of policy. It sounds good on paper, but it made a lot of gay soldiers uneasy. They couldn't be themselves and felt the need to hide. Some would come out to small groups, but they were always worried it would get out. I had a machine gunner who was in a different squad, with his squad leader who was very homophobic, and he always had issues, wasn't really focused. Fine in combat, but outside not so much. He told a few of us he was gay and we all said it wasn't a big deal and that we didn't care. Eventually he told the wrong guy, and it spread to everyone else, including his squad leader and another guy who was so religious he asked his roommate to take down a poster of two girls kissing because it was sinful, which started causing a lot of trouble. His morale plummeted and the unit started to get ready to chapter him out.

I went to the battalion Commode and told them I would happily take him in my squad, and even though the policy was no, due to being deployed it was better to keep him here than send him home and get a new guy. They agreed and I took him to my squad, and moved the very religious guy out. The rest of my squad didn't care at all.

The change in his attitude and morale when he was moved into a squad that let him be who he was, talk about his boyfriend, help him with relationship issues (as we all had) was night and day and just about overnight. He became even more focused during combat, which of course was better for us.

About 2 months later while in a somewhat hairy firefight, he ran through enemy fire 4 times to get wounded guys, while being wounded himself, and was awarded the Silver Star, our higher command erased all traces of the DADT investigation as well, ensuring he could remain in the military.

So while some guys may choose to keep it private, I'm a big advocate that people should be able to be open about who they are and I believe that it really helps someone relax who is keeping it secret, and thus increases performance. I don't think that people should need to hide their orientation so others feel better, I feel that other people need to get over it and move on.

 

[Memento]

Sam absolutely got a fair shake. He was a good player in college, but marginal in the NFL due to size issues. And even though he came with distraction issues that were partially of his own creation (OWN fiasco), he got drafted and two teams had him on roster. If they had him on a roster, that absolutely implies that if he was good enough, he would have played. No one on a practice squad can be a "side-show" because you never see PS guys.

Unfortunately, while I agree there are SOME (not all, not most) who looked down on him because of his orientation, there are also some (not necessarily in here) who want him to succeed totally because of that and would have called discrimination unless he was a starter and a perennial all pro and perhaps even then even if he isn't good enough to be that.

There is more that I could say in response to some of this, especially once you start going off football in the message above this one, but given that it's veering wildly into politics and this thread is now only vaguely Rams relevant, I'll just say I don't necessarily agree with some of the things you say.

May I correct a few things? Sam himself never created any distraction. The media was going to come out with the story anyway. The OWN helicopter incident? That was his advocate. He wanted it to be over and done with, but the media had already sunk their teeth in and wouldn't let go.

Also? The vast majority of people wouldn't have called discrimination if he was a backup. But he never really got a fair shot, as I've said before.

As for the other stuff? We can discuss that via PM in a civil manner.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

That seems like a Don't Ask Don't Tell type of policy. It sounds good on paper, but it made a lot of gay soldiers uneasy. They couldn't be themselves and felt the need to hide. Some would come out to small groups, but they were always worried it would get out. I had a machine gunner who was in a different squad, with his squad leader who was very homophobic, and he always had issues, wasn't really focused. Fine in combat, but outside not so much. He told a few of us he was gay and we all said it wasn't a big deal and that we didn't care. Eventually he told the wrong guy, and it spread to everyone else, including his squad leader and another guy who was so religious he asked his roommate to take down a poster of two girls kissing because it was sinful, which started causing a lot of trouble. His morale plummeted and the unit started to get ready to chapter him out.

I went to the battalion Commode and told them I would happily take him in my squad, and even though the policy was no, due to being deployed it was better to keep him here than send him home and get a new guy. They agreed and I took him to my squad, and moved the very religious guy out. The rest of my squad didn't care at all.

The change in his attitude and morale when he was moved into a squad that let him be who he was, talk about his boyfriend, help him with relationship issues (as we all had) was night and day and just about overnight. He became even more focused during combat, which of course was better for us.

About 2 months later while in a somewhat hairy firefight, he ran through enemy fire 4 times to get wounded guys, while being wounded himself, and was awarded the Silver Star, our higher command erased all traces of the DADT investigation as well, ensuring he could remain in the military.

So while some guys may choose to keep it private, I'm a big advocate that people should be able to be open about who they are and I believe that it really helps someone relax who is keeping it secret, and thus increases performance. I don't think that people should need to hide their orientation so others feel better, I feel that other people need to get over it and move on.

I'm not making this a political thing - this thread is going sideways and forgive my contribution to it, but I was only addressing Momento's notions on Michael Sam being persecuted

I'm saying he wasn't
Others have mentioned how he was with two professional teams

My point which I made - a point that was solely addressing Momento's assertion that the media attention was the engine running Michael Sam's decision making process - which is incorrect - because other players are currently playing who are gay who have chosen not to make a media circus of themselves / and either path is a choice that player makes

I'm part of this super generalized "media" which I could easily take offense to how those in the arts and journalism are somehow monsters

Please go back and read what I REALLY wrote and meant and discover it has zero to so with any "ask it tell" or whatever

Either that or delete my posts

 

[Boffo97]

May I correct a few things? Sam himself never created any distraction. The media was going to come out with the story anyway. The OWN helicopter incident? That was his advocate. He wanted it to be over and done with, but the media had already sunk their teeth in and wouldn't let go.

Also? The vast majority of people wouldn't have called discrimination if he was a backup. But he never really got a fair shot, as I've said before.

As for the other stuff? We can discuss that via PM in a civil manner.

Actually, I was correct in the first place. The OWN reality series thing is totally on Sam, as was his later decision to play the discrimination card as to why he's not in the NFL anymore. Causing distraction hurts any player's chance of staying and kills that of a marginal player.

And I disagree completely that he didn't get a fair shot. Absolutely and completely.

Not sure what the point of us discussing via PM would be. Is either of us going to change our mind about anything? This is precisely why it's best to concentrate on the thing that's brought us here, football, and just leave the politics and religion out of it, no matter how much we feel our viewpoints are only common sense. All it can do is divide us and create animosity.

 

[Memento]

I'm not making this a political thing - this thread is going sideways and forgive my contribution to it, but I was only addressing Momento's notions on Michael Sam being persecuted

I'm saying he wasn't
Others have mentioned how he was with two professional teams

My point which I made - a point that was solely addressing Momento's assertion that the media attention was engine running Michael Sam's decision making process which is incorrect - because other players are currently playing who have chosen not to make a media circus of themselves

I'm part of this super generalized "media" which I could easily take offense to how those in the days and journalism are somehow monsters

Please go back and thread what I REALLY wrote and meant and discover it has zero to so with any "ask it tell" or whatever

Either that or delete my posts

I apologize for generalizing about the media. I didn't know that you were a part of it, and I know that there's good media people. I'm truly sorry for having included you in it. I was ignorant.

But it was a known fact around Columbia that Sam was gay, and it was going to come out anyway via scout sources. Mind you, Sam is the first openly-gay player to have ever entered the NFL. I know that there are other gay players, but none of them were basically forced to come out like Sam was. In my opinion, it should be a choice, and he didn't have that choice. And he tried keeping quiet about it for years because some members of his immediate family (his father, in particular) are intensely homophobic. Like the machine-gunner that bluecoconuts mentioned, Sam's performance suffered because he couldn't focus at times. It was only when he told his friends (L'Damian Washington and Lucas Vincent) that he finally found people who accepted him for who he was.

 

[Memento]

Actually, I was correct in the first place. The OWN reality series thing is totally on Sam, as was his later decision to play the discrimination card as to why he's not in the NFL anymore. Causing distraction hurts any player's chance of staying and kills that of a marginal player.

And I disagree completely that he didn't get a fair shot. Absolutely and completely.

Not sure what the point of us discussing via PM would be. Is either of us going to change our mind about anything? This is precisely why it's best to concentrate on the thing that's brought us here, football, and just leave the politics and religion out of it, no matter how much we feel our viewpoints are only common sense. All it can do is divide us and create animosity.

The discrimination card is basically a cheap way of saying that discrimination isn't prevalent. Are there people who make it about race/orientation/whatever? Yeah. But this wasn't it.

As far as the OWN thing went, that was totally on his advocate. Sam told them to nix it until the season was over.

And as far as the PM goes, I just want to know your honest feelings about it, so that I can tell you mine. No more, no less. This can be discussed in a civil manner without disrupting the thread further, and we can bury whatever hatchet we may have.

 

[Boffo97]

The discrimination card is basically a cheap way of saying that discrimination isn't prevalent. Are there people who make it about race/orientation/whatever? Yeah. But this wasn't it.

As far as the OWN thing went, that was totally on his advocate. Sam told them to nix it until the season was over.

And as far as the PM goes, I just want to know your honest feelings about it, so that I can tell you mine. No more, no less. This can be discussed in a civil manner without disrupting the thread further, and we can bury whatever hatchet we may have.

There is discrimination out there. That doesn't mean discrimination was THE reason or even a factor in why Sam failed to make our or any other team. Rather than accept that he didn't make it, he chose (perhaps on bad advice) to pretend his failure was just discrimination. That's not going to do him any favors in regards to getting an invite to a camp next year. Teams are going to want to know that if he doesn't make it, they can cut him without having discrimination allegations thrown at them. He just proved that won't be the case.

If the OWN thing was solely because of an "advocate", then Sam is pretty incompetent in who he chooses to legally represent him (OWN legally couldn't have even gone as far as they did unless they were dealing with Sam or someone who had power of attorney), and thus it's still his fault.

And, no disrespect, but I'm going to skip the PM over this. When dealing with a subject where anything less than total agreement gets one labeled as "phobic", it's pretty easy to see open-minded discussion is not going to happen. I'm just going to ask, as one member to another, that we keep it about football. Or video games in that topic. Video games are awesome.

 

[RamFan503]

This thread is turning inevitably political and I'm not sure what besides finger pointing is going to come of it. Speaking in absolutes as to why Sam is not playing in the NFL is not going to play well with most. I understand the opinion that his orientation was a major factor in his not being in the NFL right now but I also get the position that many players including those drafted early on don't make it. His coming out the way it did may very well have something to do with it. But is there a person here that could have done something about that? Is there an end game here?

It's not that I don't care about the subject. I care deeply about a lot of political topics. Last I checked though, this was a politics free zone.

 

[Memento]

Understood, 503. This is my last post on this thread, and I just want to apologize if I've offended anyone.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I'm not making this a political thing - this thread is going sideways and forgive my contribution to it, but I was only addressing Momento's notions on Michael Sam being persecuted

I'm saying he wasn't
Others have mentioned how he was with two professional teams

My point which I made - a point that was solely addressing Momento's assertion that the media attention was the engine running Michael Sam's decision making process - which is incorrect - because other players are currently playing who are gay who have chosen not to make a media circus of themselves / and either path is a choice that player makes

I'm part of this super generalized "media" which I could easily take offense to how those in the arts and journalism are somehow monsters

Please go back and read what I REALLY wrote and meant and discover it has zero to so with any "ask it tell" or whatever

Either that or delete my posts

I'm not saying that you were saying gay people shouldn't come out or are homophobic or anything like that. I'm more saying that reminded me of DADT a bit. I was skimming a bit while at work, at it just popped out at me, I know it wasn't in context, it wasn't a reflection on you or your post. If a gay athlete wants to keep it private, then they should be able to keep it private. However I don't think it's fair for anyone (again not saying you are, however you can't deny that some do) suggest that he should just keep it quiet in order to maintain order. I think that it is a shame that a huge story was made from it, and while I agree it was a major milestone for an openly gay player to be the in NFL, I think it did have a negative effect on him. Some teams didn't want the media distraction, some didn't want him because he was gay, some maybe a combination of both, and some because they didn't think he was good enough to be on the team.

However he was good enough to be on a roster, and I do think that he isn't on one because of his sexual orientation being public. If he was better then yes, he likely stays on a roster because he was good enough to "justify" it all. It's a complicated issue, because he's good enough to play, but not good enough that teams think it's worth it.

The fact is that there are some, many even, fans that didn't want him just because he was gay. The sudden shift in opinion was obvious in my opinion. That's not a comment on anyone here or you or anything like that. I just feel that people should be able to be who they are, the fact that people had an issue with it was a disappointment to me.

 

[rams1991]

Michael Sam Deserves To Be In The NFL http://wp.me/p4pK1g-1XH

I don't know, I didn't see much from him for us. Maybe a situational pass rusher?

 

[Blue and Gold]

Michael Sam hopes for a spot at the NFL’s first veteran Combine
Posted by Michael David Smith on February 8, 2015, 3:39 PM EST

AP
Ten months after he was the most talked-about seventh-round pick in the history of the NFL draft, Michael Sam is hoping for a new opportunity to jumpstart his NFL career.

As a result, Sam has applied for a spot in the NFL’s first-ever veteran Combine, USA Todayreports.

The NFL announced last month that the veteran Combine will take place on March 22. It is intended for players like Sam, who played well for the Rams in the 2014 preseason but was cut just before the start of the regular season. Sam spent some time on the Cowboys’ practice squad but hasn’t yet been on an active 53-man roster.

If Sam can turn heads at the Combine, he’d have a chance of making a 90-man offseason roster and earning a spot on a regular-season roster. If not, his fallback option is going to Canada, where the Montreal Alouettes of the CFL are interested in his services. That route might actually be a better option for Sam. Dolphins defensive end Cameron Wake was cut by the Giants as an undrafted rookie in 2005 but had two good seasons in the CFL in 2007 and 2008 before signing with the Dolphins and becoming a four-time Pro Bowler. Sam could do the same.

But for now, Sam views the CFL as his second choice. His first choice is to catch on with some NFL team, and the veteran Combine will, he hopes, be an opportunity to show teams that he’s ready to play.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Just a short scroll down....
http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/michael-sam.35030/

 

[Memento]

Hey, at least he's getting a fair shake this time around. I'm glad to see that he's still trying to pursue his dream.

 

[Boffo97]

Does he deserve another shot? Sure. He deserves just as many shots as any other players get.

Does he have an absolute right to play? No, not if his talents don't merit it.

If he's good enough to play, and he deliberately keeps the distraction (most of which isn't his fault, but some is) to a minimum, he's going to force some team to bring him in. Any talent you leave on the table is talent your rival can use to make THEMSELVES better.

 

[Memento]

Does he deserve another shot? Sure. He deserves just as many shots as any other players get.

Does he have an absolute right to play? No, not if his talents don't merit it.

If he's good enough to play, and he deliberately keeps the distraction (most of which isn't his fault, but some is) to a minimum, he's going to force some team to bring him in. Any talent you leave on the table is talent your rival can use to make THEMSELVES better.

Couldn't agree more with what you said.

 

[rams1991]

Does he deserve another shot? Sure. He deserves just as many shots as any other players get.

Does he have an absolute right to play? No, not if his talents don't merit it.

If he's good enough to play, and he deliberately keeps the distraction (most of which isn't his fault, but some is) to a minimum, he's going to force some team to bring him in. Any talent you leave on the table is talent your rival can use to make THEMSELVES better.

Well said, although he's gotta have some kind of talent to win SEC Defensive Player of the Year, doesn't he?

 

[Mikey Ram]

The carcass of this horse is really starting to smell bad...

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I can't wait for the day I can root for an openly gay player who is actually good

 

[RamFan503]

Just a short scroll down....
http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/michael-sam.35030/

Merged