It all makes sense now.

[Anonymous]

In real life billionaires aren't masters of hand to hand combat and decide to fight crime, but that's part of why it's a movie. :ww:

Yeah, I said that, basically. I said it's a comic book movie and you have to make certain allowances. I mentioned the fact that in a realistic setting the FBI would figure out who batman was instantly.

And even given that those are comic book films and you just go with that...Nolan stretches things.

It's not a put-down. I like the DK films. But. I mean. You know. You can see the stretch marks.

 

[-X-]

In real life billionaires aren't masters of hand to hand combat and decide to fight crime, but that's part of why it's a movie. :ww:

Yes we are. And yes .... we do. :twisted:

 

[Angry Ram]

Seriously? The end was just tryin 2 make all the nerds happy. Unless Blake ends up as Nightwing, not Robin. BTW the funniest part of the movie was when Gordon was on the ice and lit the fuse to reveal the bat symbol. Batman needed to DISARM A BOMB from BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE CITY, that was ON A TIMER. And he found the time to string together fuses connected and placed on top of a building to reveal a burning bat symbol. You know why, b/c he's freakin Batman!

Well then I'm a nerd. Cuz it made me happy. :razzed:

And yeah on the Batman symbol in 100 foot flames.
He probably could have shaved about 20 minutes off of getting that bomb out over the bay if he avoided that step.
Derp.

Welcome 2 the club!

Flaming bat was still a geek-out moment, gotta admit.

Seriously? The end was just tryin 2 make all the nerds happy. Unless Blake ends up as Nightwing, not Robin. BTW the funniest part of the movie was when Gordon was on the ice and lit the fuse to reveal the bat symbol. Batman needed to DISARM A BOMB from BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE CITY, that was ON A TIMER. And he found the time to string together fuses connected and placed on top of a building to reveal a burning bat symbol. You know why, b/c he's freakin Batman!

Well then I'm a nerd. Cuz it made me happy. :razzed:

And yeah on the Batman symbol in 100 foot flames.
He probably could have shaved about 20 minutes off of getting that bomb out over the bay if he avoided that step.
Derp.

Nolan and Abrams (Star Trek) are my favorite "huge plot holes" directors.

I could go on and on.

What about the last Dark Knight, where 2 ferries full of people are held hostage to bombs the Joker put there. So they all get on ferries to flee the city BECAUSE there are bomb threats, and...no one checks the ferries for bombs? (?) Plus...how did he get them on there? (?) There were huge drums of explosive liquid involved. How did they get there?

Well, how he got them was there is an easy explanation. Joker had his clown posse (not THAT one) to do the heavy lifting.

Even if they were checked for bombs, the ppl wouldn't know where to go. Stay in the city or on the ferry? Actually, if I remember didn't someone on the both boats go and check, finding the detonators?

They were supposed to find the detonators and were prompted to do it.

So you own a ferry company and the ferries are being used to evacuate a city with heavy bomb threats. You don't send someone to check the boats? ("remember, guys...bomb threat!") And...how does a clown posse manage to get dozens of large liquid container drums on the boats? "Hey we're here with dozens of suspicious looking drums, can we have access to the lowest deck of the boat?" "sure, mac, just don't bug me I'm watching jeopardy here." Don't get me started on Nolan. Or...more started. His movies are plot implausibility/plot convenience city. And I liked both Dark Knight movies. When I see Bruce Willis in a movie, who I like, I don't expect oscar worthy fine acting. When I see a Nolan movie, and I like the DK films, I expect the plot to be as implausible as a teenagers explanation for why she couldn't finish her homework.

Dude, Joker's cronies would've just killed the crew. You saw how they were in the opening scene at the bank. And during the truck chase scene. And Joker himself when he made the pencil disappear.

I have to watch the movie again, but again I swear someone got sent down to check, and he brought back the detonators? If the city was set to blow, and eventually the boats, well then they were rats trapped in a maze.

I'm a Marvel fan tho, so it doesn't really bother me.

Well, since so much depends upon this deep debate, I have no choice but to continue.

Do you get on a ferry to escape a bomb threatened city if someone has killed the crew? "hey dead crew." "Oh. Well that happens. Get the other crew."

Someone was prompted to find the detonators by the Joker because that was part of the plan. Each ship could survive if it blew the other up.

[The Joker has rigged two ferries to explode, one filled with prison inmates, one with ordinary people, giving each ferry one detonator and telling them they have to blow up the other, or he'll blow up both. A prisoner approaches the warden, who's holding the detonator]
Tattooed Prisoner: You don't want to die, but you don't know how to take a life. Give it to me; these men would kill you, and take it anyway. Give it to me. You can tell 'em I took it by force. Give it to me, and I'll do what you shoulda did ten minutes ago.

I'm just sayin, if you crowd a ferry to escape a bomb threat, check for bombs...before you leave the dock.

Anyway, it's Nolan. His plots are just papered over with "don't think about it too hard" moments like that.

And granted it's a comic book movie and we're supposed to let certain things go (like, in a realistic film, the FBI would figure out who batman was within half an hour).

Still.

I meant to say crew, meaning guards/security. The actually captain and ship crew, would already be on the boats and wouldn't know they got killed. Or, OR Joker's minions could've tossed the bodies into the lake/river/ocean or w/e body of water that was.

Your right, tho, about the detonators. Forgot that Joker told them they were "part of a social experiment." Still, it was Joker. He's was very smart for his purpose, riggin both the city and boats.

As for comic book movie, I felt that BB and DKR were more comic-y then DK. DK was more crime syndicate type movie.

 

[Anonymous]

I meant to say crew, meaning guards/security. The actually captain and ship crew, would already be on the boats and wouldn't know they got killed. Or, OR Joker's minions could've tossed the bodies into the lake/river/ocean or w/e body of water that was.

Your right, tho, about the detonators. Forgot that Joker told them they were "part of a social experiment." Still, it was Joker. He's was very smart for his purpose, riggin both the city and boats.

As for comic book movie, I felt that BB and DKR were more comic-y then DK. DK was more crime syndicate type movie.

Okay so in that universe we would have a ferry company that didn't notice all of its security people were dead.

DK is not really a crime drama movie though it borrows elements. If it were the much more realistic crime drama movie, for example, an FBI lab would be all over the blown up batmobile and would have figured out who made it. Like, within a day. To name just one example. If that happened in a crime drama--like "Heat"--we would immediately go "uh, they have a blown up car, they can do forensics work on it." Or, when the Joker sets all the money on fire on the docks, someone notices that a ship is burning and they find the forensic traces of a whole lot of money that got burned. In DK, we don't even think about that. So in the comix, the FBI not only doesn't figure out who Batman is, they don't exist. Just a rule of the genre.

It's a comic book movie that kind of uses that "hard-boiled feel" for tone.

We agree that we like the DK movies, right? But to me, Nolan as a director really works this way--he has a number of set-piece scenes, and then, in between, a lot of "don't think too hard about it" plot convenience strings.

 

[brokeu91]

Seriously? The end was just tryin 2 make all the nerds happy. Unless Blake ends up as Nightwing, not Robin. BTW the funniest part of the movie was when Gordon was on the ice and lit the fuse to reveal the bat symbol. Batman needed to DISARM A BOMB from BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE CITY, that was ON A TIMER. And he found the time to string together fuses connected and placed on top of a building to reveal a burning bat symbol. You know why, b/c he's freakin Batman!

Well then I'm a nerd. Cuz it made me happy. :razzed:

And yeah on the Batman symbol in 100 foot flames.
He probably could have shaved about 20 minutes off of getting that bomb out over the bay if he avoided that step.
Derp.

Welcome 2 the club!

Flaming bat was still a geek-out moment, gotta admit.

Seriously? The end was just tryin 2 make all the nerds happy. Unless Blake ends up as Nightwing, not Robin. BTW the funniest part of the movie was when Gordon was on the ice and lit the fuse to reveal the bat symbol. Batman needed to DISARM A BOMB from BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE CITY, that was ON A TIMER. And he found the time to string together fuses connected and placed on top of a building to reveal a burning bat symbol. You know why, b/c he's freakin Batman!

Well then I'm a nerd. Cuz it made me happy. :razzed:

And yeah on the Batman symbol in 100 foot flames.
He probably could have shaved about 20 minutes off of getting that bomb out over the bay if he avoided that step.
Derp.

Nolan and Abrams (Star Trek) are my favorite "huge plot holes" directors.

I could go on and on.

What about the last Dark Knight, where 2 ferries full of people are held hostage to bombs the Joker put there. So they all get on ferries to flee the city BECAUSE there are bomb threats, and...no one checks the ferries for bombs? (?) Plus...how did he get them on there? (?) There were huge drums of explosive liquid involved. How did they get there?

Well, how he got them was there is an easy explanation. Joker had his clown posse (not THAT one) to do the heavy lifting.

Even if they were checked for bombs, the ppl wouldn't know where to go. Stay in the city or on the ferry? Actually, if I remember didn't someone on the both boats go and check, finding the detonators?

They were supposed to find the detonators and were prompted to do it.

So you own a ferry company and the ferries are being used to evacuate a city with heavy bomb threats. You don't send someone to check the boats? ("remember, guys...bomb threat!") And...how does a clown posse manage to get dozens of large liquid container drums on the boats? "Hey we're here with dozens of suspicious looking drums, can we have access to the lowest deck of the boat?" "sure, mac, just don't bug me I'm watching jeopardy here." Don't get me started on Nolan. Or...more started. His movies are plot implausibility/plot convenience city. And I liked both Dark Knight movies. When I see Bruce Willis in a movie, who I like, I don't expect oscar worthy fine acting. When I see a Nolan movie, and I like the DK films, I expect the plot to be as implausible as a teenagers explanation for why she couldn't finish her homework.

Dude, Joker's cronies would've just killed the crew. You saw how they were in the opening scene at the bank. And during the truck chase scene. And Joker himself when he made the pencil disappear.

I have to watch the movie again, but again I swear someone got sent down to check, and he brought back the detonators? If the city was set to blow, and eventually the boats, well then they were rats trapped in a maze.

I'm a Marvel fan tho, so it doesn't really bother me.

Well, since so much depends upon this deep debate, I have no choice but to continue.

Do you get on a ferry to escape a bomb threatened city if someone has killed the crew? "hey dead crew." "Oh. Well that happens. Get the other crew."

Someone was prompted to find the detonators by the Joker because that was part of the plan. Each ship could survive if it blew the other up.

[The Joker has rigged two ferries to explode, one filled with prison inmates, one with ordinary people, giving each ferry one detonator and telling them they have to blow up the other, or he'll blow up both. A prisoner approaches the warden, who's holding the detonator]
Tattooed Prisoner: You don't want to die, but you don't know how to take a life. Give it to me; these men would kill you, and take it anyway. Give it to me. You can tell 'em I took it by force. Give it to me, and I'll do what you shoulda did ten minutes ago.

I'm just sayin, if you crowd a ferry to escape a bomb threat, check for bombs...before you leave the dock.

Anyway, it's Nolan. His plots are just papered over with "don't think about it too hard" moments like that.

And granted it's a comic book movie and we're supposed to let certain things go (like, in a realistic film, the FBI would figure out who batman was within half an hour).

Still.

I used to think my favorite super-villain of all movies of all time is Darth Vader and there's no way to make me change my mind. Once I saw the Dark Knight I realized that Joker completely overtook him. To me, that's Heath Ledger's finest acting performance. I can tell you as a forensic psychiatrist that his portrayal of someone who has no real emotion or has no value on human life whatsoever was so well done that I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. It's such a shame that Heath Ledger died, he was really coming into his own as an actor. I think he could have had a great career.

 

[-X-]

Couldn't agree more broke.



Sent via Tapatalk2.

 

[Anonymous]

I used to think my favorite super-villain of all movies of all time is Darth Vader and there's no way to make me change my mind. Once I saw the Dark Knight I realized that Joker completely overtook him. To me, that's Heath Ledger's finest acting performance. I can tell you as a forensic psychiatrist that his portrayal of someone who has no real emotion or has no value on human life whatsoever was so well done that I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. It's such a shame that Heath Ledger died, he was really coming into his own as an actor. I think he could have had a great career.

There's no question about any of that.

As I said, we all like the films.

That doesn't mean Nolan isn't addicted to transparent plot conveniences.

That's just not his strength. Or rather I don't think he even cares about it.

His strength is set pieces that give us vivid pictures of characters in fascinating circumstances, and the portrayal of the Joker fits that.

For one thing, it's not just that his Joker doesn't value life--he has a perverse dedication to a principle about it. His claim is that any other view of humanity is an illusion. But he's not just this self-interested creep--he has a kind of upside down dedication to that as an idea greater than himself. This comes out in the scene where he puts a gun in Harvey Dent's hand, puts it up against his own head, and says "okay flip a coin." That's how far he is willing to go to prove something.

I actually like Bane from the new film, too, except that Bane is a completely different thing than the Joker. The Ledger Joker is a hard act to follow so they didn't follow it, they just went somewhere else.

 

[-X-]

How does Bane eat if he can't take that thing off his face?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

 

[SunTzu.v.Camus]

Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive;
plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live.
When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory.
-- Sun Tzu

SunTzu:
Someone quoting me again?
Oh yeah that quote...I always liked that one.

Well, Albert , Mr. Life of the Party....anything to add??
Or you just gonna sit there and contemplate existence again...
like you always do!?

Camus:
Umm...how bout...
"There is no sunshine without shadow...
and it is essential to know the night."

SunTzu:
Really? That's all you got?
Get a life, Albert....jeez!

 

[Anonymous]

How does Bane eat if he can't take that thing off his face?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

He can.

We just don't see him do it.

But they do have one small problem with this film version of Bane. In the comix the mask feeds him some kind of super steroid or something. In the movie it's an anesthetic. Uh, well...what kind of anesthetic do you walk around breathing every minute of your existence that doesn't also impede other functions?

 

[RamFan503]

In real life billionaires aren't masters of hand to hand combat and decide to fight crime, but that's part of why it's a movie. :ww:

They're not? Get OUT! :7up:

 

[RamFan503]

I used to think my favorite super-villain of all movies of all time is Darth Vader and there's no way to make me change my mind. Once I saw the Dark Knight I realized that Joker completely overtook him. To me, that's Heath Ledger's finest acting performance. I can tell you as a forensic psychiatrist that his portrayal of someone who has no real emotion or has no value on human life whatsoever was so well done that I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. It's such a shame that Heath Ledger died, he was really coming into his own as an actor. I think he could have had a great career.

Absolutely.

 

[Angry Ram]

I meant to say crew, meaning guards/security. The actually captain and ship crew, would already be on the boats and wouldn't know they got killed. Or, OR Joker's minions could've tossed the bodies into the lake/river/ocean or w/e body of water that was.

Your right, tho, about the detonators. Forgot that Joker told them they were "part of a social experiment." Still, it was Joker. He's was very smart for his purpose, riggin both the city and boats.

As for comic book movie, I felt that BB and DKR were more comic-y then DK. DK was more crime syndicate type movie.

Okay so in that universe we would have a ferry company that didn't notice all of its security people were dead.

DK is not really a crime drama movie though it borrows elements. If it were the much more realistic crime drama movie, for example, an FBI lab would be all over the blown up batmobile and would have figured out who made it. Like, within a day. To name just one example. If that happened in a crime drama--like "Heat"--we would immediately go "uh, they have a blown up car, they can do forensics work on it." Or, when the Joker sets all the money on fire on the docks, someone notices that a ship is burning and they find the forensic traces of a whole lot of money that got burned. In DK, we don't even think about that. So in the comix, the FBI not only doesn't figure out who Batman is, they don't exist. Just a rule of the genre.

It's a comic book movie that kind of uses that "hard-boiled feel" for tone.

We agree that we like the DK movies, right? But to me, Nolan as a director really works this way--he has a number of set-piece scenes, and then, in between, a lot of "don't think too hard about it" plot convenience strings.

It def. is more of a crime drama movie, w/ the mob, lawyers, courts, etc. That's what Dent was all about, no? I agree they were good movies, but I rank them BB, DKR, DK in order of comic-y. I just feel like DK, it required more thinking than BB or DKR.

Marvel movies feel like comic books. Like in Avengers, I can picture them in a comic pane when they are all posing, are ribbing each other. DK...not so much.

 

[Memento]

I truly think that all of the Dark Knight villains were incredibly portrayed by their respective actors. All of them were disturbingly-realistic and true to their origins. Cillian Murphy (Scarecrow), Tom Hardy (Bane), Aaron Eckhart (Harvey Dent/Two-Face), and Liam Neeson (R'as al-Ghul) stole the show for me. And Heath Ledger was still better than every one of them. His performance as the Joker was one of the finest I've ever seen from any actor or actress in any form of media. He made a sociopathic monster more popular than the hero trying to stop him.

On another topic, Bane's crew were amazing villains in their own right. Like Catwoman said, those men weren't your average street punks. These were global terrorists and ex-special forces mercenaries, and it clearly showed.

And that's not even getting into the performances of the good guys. Say what you want about the realism, but the casting and acting was some of the best I've ever seen. I have nothing bad to say about that.

 

[Anonymous]

I meant to say crew, meaning guards/security. The actually captain and ship crew, would already be on the boats and wouldn't know they got killed. Or, OR Joker's minions could've tossed the bodies into the lake/river/ocean or w/e body of water that was.

Your right, tho, about the detonators. Forgot that Joker told them they were "part of a social experiment." Still, it was Joker. He's was very smart for his purpose, riggin both the city and boats.

As for comic book movie, I felt that BB and DKR were more comic-y then DK. DK was more crime syndicate type movie.

Okay so in that universe we would have a ferry company that didn't notice all of its security people were dead.

DK is not really a crime drama movie though it borrows elements. If it were the much more realistic crime drama movie, for example, an FBI lab would be all over the blown up batmobile and would have figured out who made it. Like, within a day. To name just one example. If that happened in a crime drama--like "Heat"--we would immediately go "uh, they have a blown up car, they can do forensics work on it." Or, when the Joker sets all the money on fire on the docks, someone notices that a ship is burning and they find the forensic traces of a whole lot of money that got burned. In DK, we don't even think about that. So in the comix, the FBI not only doesn't figure out who Batman is, they don't exist. Just a rule of the genre.

It's a comic book movie that kind of uses that "hard-boiled feel" for tone.

We agree that we like the DK movies, right? But to me, Nolan as a director really works this way--he has a number of set-piece scenes, and then, in between, a lot of "don't think too hard about it" plot convenience strings.

It def. is more of a crime drama movie, w/ the mob, lawyers, courts, etc. That's what Dent was all about, no? I agree they were good movies, but I rank them BB, DKR, DK in order of comic-y. I just feel like DK, it required more thinking than BB or DKR.

Marvel movies feel like comic books. Like in Avengers, I can picture them in a comic pane when they are all posing, are ribbing each other. DK...not so much.

That;s the kind of comic book world it's set in. So then you get comic book versions of that kind of thing, like all the mobsters in town eating at the same restaurant at the same time and so all getting arrested at once. They did everything but toss in Flattop Jones and Pruneface.

I didn't think for a solitary second during the DK films. They were just well made comic book films. Which is fine, cause, I like well made comic book films.

 

[Anonymous]

I truly think that all of the Dark Knight villains were incredibly portrayed by their respective actors. All of them were disturbingly-realistic and true to their origins. Cillian Murphy (Scarecrow), Tom Hardy (Bane), Aaron Eckhart (Harvey Dent/Two-Face), and Liam Neeson (R'as al-Ghul) stole the show for me. And Heath Ledger was still better than every one of them. His performance as the Joker was one of the finest I've ever seen from any actor or actress in any form of media. He made a sociopathic monster more popular than the hero trying to stop him.

On another topic, Bane's crew were amazing villains in their own right. Like Catwoman said, those men weren't your average street punks. These were global terrorists and ex-special forces mercenaries, and it clearly showed.

And that's not even getting into the performances of the good guys. Say what you want about the realism, but the casting and acting was some of the best I've ever seen. I have nothing bad to say about that.

I agree. But a note on "realism." Realism isn't an issue in the comic book genre--they have their own world and logic. Objecting to the fact that the FBI never gets interested in Batman would be like watching the Lord of the Rings and going "orcs?! there's no such thing as orcs!"

I was talking about plot coherence. The Lord of the Rings, for example, has a coherent plot and doesn't depend on contrivances (well till the stupid eagles conveniently show up at the end).

So for example in DKR he escapes a jail in Pakistan with no money and no papers and then ends up, as someone pointed out, making a dramatic entrance in NY soon after, while no one else can get in or out of the city. That's a plot contrivance. But then as I said Nolan doesn't care about that. He stitches together big set piece scenes and then doesn't worry about the stitching holding them together.

But comic book films just have their own rules, and we know that. Thor doesn't need a visa. Iron Man never thinks about turning arc reactors into sustainable energy others can use. There's an entire city where no cop notices a batmobile driving around (until they chase it in one scene in BMB). Etc. It's another world with different rules. Okay. No one goes to those movies and says "wait a minute! why would living under a yellow sun give you super breath????"

 

[Ram Quixote]

The Lord of the Rings, for example, has a coherent plot and doesn't depend on contrivances (well till the stupid eagles conveniently show up at the end).

Because LotR was done before the Hobbit, the eagle's arrival does seem contrived. But in the Hobbit, the eagles come to Gandalf and the dwarves aid a couple times, as well as Gandalf's rescue from Saruman in Fellowship.

There was precedence to it, but only if you had read the Hobbit.

DK? I saw it just once. I prefer less dry wit and the not-so-serious Marvel types.

Now, if you really want to get into subtext and themes, this website I go to has 12 pages of discussion on DK, still going since that movie came out 4 years ago.
http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/vi ... hp?t=15681

Some of these people lean towards the intellectual. In other words, they're often a little too full of themselves. But they can still be entertaining, in a Frasier Crane sort of way.

 

[brokeu91]

The Lord of the Rings, for example, has a coherent plot and doesn't depend on contrivances (well till the stupid eagles conveniently show up at the end).

Because LotR was done before the Hobbit, the eagle's arrival does seem contrived. But in the Hobbit, the eagles come to Gandalf and the dwarves aid a couple times, as well as Gandalf's rescue from Saruman in Fellowship.

There was precedence to it, but only if you had read the Hobbit.

DK? I saw it just once. I prefer less dry wit and the not-so-serious Marvel types.

Now, if you really want to get into subtext and themes, this website I go to has 12 pages of discussion on DK, still going since that movie came out 4 years ago.
http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/vi ... hp?t=15681

Some of these people lean towards the intellectual. In other words, they're often a little too full of themselves. But they can still be entertaining, in a Frasier Crane sort of way.

I'm a bit of a TLOR/JRR Tolkien connoisseur. The Eagles were explained in the book...they were from the Brown Wizard, who also helped save Gandalf from the Tower of Saruman. There were more wizards than just the White (Saruman...later Gandalf), the Gray (Gandalf) and the Brown, but they're not mentioned in TLOR. They are mentioned in The Silmarillion.

One of the things I hated about The Hobbit was the transition from The Hobbit to TLOR and how amazingly different the one ring is treated (I won't even get into the fact that the Hobbit is a kids book and to me nearly unreadable). In The Hobbit it makes it seem like the ring Bilbo found was just one of hundreds of magical rings. All of a sudden in TLOR it becomes the single most important item on the planet. And a Wizard sent from heaven by the Gods couldn't recognize that the one thing that could potentially ruin the planet was found in his company? To me that's a huge plot hole...the Eagles by comparison is just tiny.

 

[PhxRam]

What a bunch of damn nerds :razzed:

 

[-X-]

What a bunch of damn nerds :razzed:

Ha!

Wait.

I might be one too. I'm kinda hooked on the Oblivion (Elder Scrolls) video game series, and I was an epic member of RuneScape. :?!: