If we draft a WR early, it should be...

[jrry32]

But it does match the film. I didn't say he didn't say he was incapable of getting open I said he didn't separate vs man coverage. The whole point of reception perception is charting what WRs do on a route to route basis by watching film, then using that charting information too see where they stack up against other prospects. If you read what he wrote he said Kupp faced much more zone coverage playing the majority of his snaps on the inside and was quite successful in that regard. Here is the section in his success rate vs man, zone, and press.

I've read it. It doesn't match the film. His methodology ignores the realities of football and different schemes.

The best part of all this is that we got to see Kupp facing off against man coverage against some of the best DBs college football had to offer in the Senior Bowl. Here's an article that discusses his practice performance:
http://nflspinzone.com/2017/01/28/senior-bowl-2017-cooper-kupp-raising-nfl-draft-stock/

Kupp dominated the practices. Isn't it a bit odd that a guy who lacks the physical talent to separate against man coverage could do it in the Senior Bowl?

You can swear by the Reception Perception numbers, but I don't. It's nothing more than a complement for film for me. It's not a substitute. When the two don't mesh, I go with the film. I know what I'm seeing. I know what I'm doing. I don't know anything about the other guy.

The fact is that Kupp has produced at extraordinary levels year in and year out. His production actually got better against the Pac-12 when compared to his FCS production. Kupp even burnt guys who were/will be top NFL draft picks.

And the kicker is that Kupp's game better fits the NFL than college. NFL teams are much more capable of using a guy like him than a college team.

 

[StealYoGurley]

I've read it. It doesn't match the film. His methodology ignores the realities of football and different schemes.

The best part of all this is that we got to see Kupp facing off against man coverage against some of the best DBs college football had to offer in the Senior Bowl. Here's an article that discusses his practice performance:
http://nflspinzone.com/2017/01/28/senior-bowl-2017-cooper-kupp-raising-nfl-draft-stock/

Kupp dominated the practices. Isn't it a bit odd that a guy who lacks the physical talent to separate against man coverage could do it in the Senior Bowl?

You can swear by the Reception Perception numbers, but I don't. It's nothing more than a complement for film for me. It's not a substitute. When the two don't mesh, I go with the film. I know what I'm seeing. I know what I'm doing. I don't know anything about the other guy.

The fact is that Kupp has produced at extraordinary levels year in and year out. His production actually got better against the Pac-12 when compared to his FCS production. Kupp even burnt guys who were/will be top NFL draft picks.

And the kicker is that Kupp's game better fits the NFL than college. NFL teams are much more capable of using a guy like him than a college team.

1. I am not a scout and as far as I know you are not one either. I watch alot of film and I consider myself relatively knowledgeable about football having played through the college level. However, since I do not do this for a living I think it only makes sense supplement tape watching with metrics and outside analysis. I do not have the professional acumen to claim what I see is the end all be all about a prospect. IMO even professionals should supplement there analysis with these type of studies to see if the numbers back up what their eyes see. Or at least conduct similar studies like this on their own.

2. I am just presenting information and raising the question would you like to think. If you don't want to give his analysis credence that is fine. From my perspective I give Harmon alot of credit for his detailed analysis. Not many people are watching film and charting WRs on a play to play basis, based on their route, type coverage faced, and success rate in different areas of their game. I personally don't have the kind of time go that in depth when researching players, so I appreciate studies that do so. If you are engaged in a long term comparative analysis doing that type of detailed analysis or doing something like it every year more power to you.

3. Harmon didn't say he lacked physical talent to separate for man coverage you are combing two separate points he made. Harmon said when Kupp faced man coverage he was way less successful than most of the WRs he charted over the last two years. He qualified that by saying Kupp did not face alot of man playing most of his snaps in the slot. He did say Kupp was quite successful versus zone coverage at an about 78% success rate. So the logic follows if Kupp faced zone most of the time and he was successful most of the time he could put up the big numbers he put up in college. Kupp grading poorly at the combine was a separate point and just another of piece of information he was factoring into his evaluation.

4. His game is great in college that is why he put up those numbers. Receivers who play the majority of their snaps in the slot in college don't suddenly become great outside WRs in the NFL. His age and lack of athleticism make it even less likely.

5. Harmon never said Kupp was bad or couldn't play in the NFL. IMO he is a good solid player who is probably best playing the majority of his snaps in slot. IMO your comparisons to Keenan Allen and Larry Fitzgerald are way too lofty. A comparison I saw for Kupp that I liked was Austin Collie before the concussions. Kupp is a little bigger and Collie is a bit faster, but most wouldn't complain if he had Collie level production. Wether that type of player is the best fit for the Rams right now is debatable.

 

[jrry32]

1. I am not a scout and as far as I know you are not one either. I watch alot of film and I consider myself relatively knowledgeable about football having played through the college level. However, since I do not do this for a living I think it only makes sense supplement tape watching with metrics and outside analysis. I do not have the professional acumen to claim what I see is the end all be all about a prospect. IMO even professionals should supplement there analysis with these type of studies to see if the numbers back up what their eyes see. Or at least conduct similar studies like this on their own.

I don't need to be a scout. I have enough practical experience to be confident in my knowledge of the game and position. I've spent a lot of time learning the ins and outs of that position. It's my favorite position to evaluate. I don't see my evaluations as infallible, but I am confident in my ability to see what's there.

This analysis can be useful, but that's only to the extent that it backs what's on film or illustrates something you're missing. I went back and rewatched Kupp after reading his analysis. It doesn't align with what I see on film.

The other big issue is that his work doesn't have a track record when it comes to prospects. I put a decent amount of stock in certain analytics for edge rushers because of the predictive power it has based on its track record. It doesn't override film, but it certainly receives a lot of weight in mind. At this point, his reception perception doesn't have a large enough sample or enough of a track record to show predictive power.

Then there are issues with the assumptions he makes in his methodologies.

2. I am just presenting information and raising the question would you like to think. If you don't want to give his analysis credence that is fine. From my perspective I give Harmon alot of credit for his detailed analysis. Not many people are watching film and charting WRs on a play to play basis, based on their route, type coverage faced, and success rate in different areas of their game. I personally don't have the kind of time go that in depth when researching players, so I appreciate studies that do so. If you are engaged in a long term comparative analysis doing that type of detailed analysis or doing something like it every year more power to you.

I'm glad he does it. I see value in it, but it doesn't replace or override film for me.

3. Harmon didn't say he lacked physical talent to separate for man coverage you are combing two separate points he made. Harmon said when Kupp faced man coverage he was way less successful than most of the WRs he charted over the last two years. He qualified that by saying Kupp did not face alot of man playing most of his snaps in the slot. He did say Kupp was quite successful versus zone coverage at an about 78% success rate. So the logic follows if Kupp faced zone most of the time and he was successful most of the time he could put up the big numbers he put up in college. Kupp grading poorly at the combine was a separate point and just another of piece of information he was factoring into his evaluation.

That's exactly what Harmon was saying:
"It’s a stretch to believe a player, no matter how productive on paper they may be, that struggled to consistently beat man coverage at a low-level of collegiate football will be able to transition to the outside in the NFL. Technical prowess is essential for most wide receivers to win as route-runners in the league, but even the most proficient technicians can be rendered moot when they lack the tangible athletic gifts of an average NFL receiver. After the scouting combine, we know Kupp falls into that group."

4. His game is great in college that is why he put up those numbers. Receivers who play the majority of their snaps in the slot in college don't suddenly become great outside WRs in the NFL. His age and lack of athleticism make it even less likely.

Why not? There are plenty of examples of Kupp playing outside at EWU. They put him in the slot because that is where he was most valuable for the team. East Carolina did the opposite with Zay Jones this year. He played almost exclusively in the slot in past years there, but they moved him outside this year to show NFL teams he could succeed there. I have little doubt that Kupp could have produced at just as high of a level if EWU had played him outside rather than in the slot on the majority of plays. Kupp never had issues when they asked him to play outside.

In fact, Keenan Allen often played in the slot at Cal. Here's a line from his NFL.com scouting report to back that up:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/keenan-allen?id=2540154
"Lines up in the slot regularly..."

Kupp doesn't lack athleticism. Kupp possesses the athleticism that is most crucial to NFL success.

5. Harmon never said Kupp was bad or couldn't play in the NFL. IMO he is a good solid player who is probably best playing the majority of his snaps in slot. IMO your comparisons to Keenan Allen and Larry Fitzgerald are way too lofty. A comparison I saw for Kupp that I liked was Austin Collie before the concussions. Kupp is a little bigger and Collie is a bit faster, but most wouldn't complain if he had Collie level production. Wether that type of player is the best fit for the Rams right now is debatable.

Well, I think the Allen comparison is spot on. Almost identical in terms of H/W/S. Same strengths and weaknesses. Both were undervalued because of the emphasis put on straight-line speed.

 

[LACHAMP46]

This should be interesting....And Keenan still lives in the slot....and is always on the move.

 

[Ram65]

It's always hard to look at a guy with great production and less than great combine type numbers. Some how I think Krupp will produce in the NFL and not as just a slot guy. He has great change of direction, hands and smarts. It will be fun to see how he does.

 

[lockdnram21]

If I'm the Rams, I don't stay away from the players who catch the ball and run routes like a pro. Going after raw athletes is how we ended up with nothing at the WR position since Holt/Bruce left.

I didn't say go after raw athletes... I just don't see more then a slot receiver in Kupp and we have enough of those... Just my opinion

 

[jrry32]

I didn't say go after raw athletes... I just don't see more then a slot receiver in Kupp and we have enough of those... Just my opinion

Who are our slot WRs? Austin isn't one. That leaves us with Cooper and Spruce. Neither of whom have proven anything at the NFL level. And frankly, I think the whole "he's just a slot WR" limitation usually ends up being BS, especially when you have a good offensive mind. New England has managed to build a WR corps full of "just slot WRs." Yet, those guys manage to all produce together.

If Kupp and Cooper both are capable of being 1000+ yard WRs in the slot, I'm sure we can find a way to make use of both. It's not like you suddenly lose that skill-set that allows you to get open when you move outside. Wes Welker didn't stop getting open when the Patriots started running 12 personnel with Hernandez and Gronk.

 

[lockdnram21]

Who are our slot WRs? Austin isn't one. That leaves us with Cooper and Spruce. Neither of whom have proven anything at the NFL level. And frankly, I think the whole "he's just a slot WR" limitation usually ends up being BS, especially when you have a good offensive mind. New England has managed to build a WR corps full of "just slot WRs." Yet, those guys manage to all produce together.

If Kupp and Cooper both are capable of being 1000+ yard WRs in the slot, I'm sure we can find a way to make use of both. It's not like you suddenly lose that skill-set that allows you to get open when you move outside. Wes Welker didn't stop getting open when the Patriots started running 12 personnel with Hernandez and Gronk.

I hear u... I respect your opinion but still wouldn't be a fan if he's the pick in 2nd round

 

[jrry32]

I hear u... I respect your opinion but still wouldn't be a fan if he's the pick in 2nd round

That's fine. It's the nature of the draft. Just driving my point home about the "only a slot WR" label often being misleading.

 

[yrba1]

After @jrry32 's analysis on TY Hilton as a draft prospect, I'm not gonna doubt his scouting skills. Having polished route running skills triumphs over blazing fast speeds. If he's on target, I expect us to either move up late 2nd to grab him or with our 3rd/4th round pick.

 

[Ramhusker]

Quite simply, Can Kupp take the top off of an NFL D??????

 

[Ram65]

Quite simply, Can Kupp take the top off of an NFL D??????

He can by setting up defenders with his quick moves and route running. He can shield defenders and make one handed catches. He's not your deep threat speed guy but, he can get deep. Mayock thinks so. I'll take the Senior Bowl week over the underwear olympics.


http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jan/27/former-eastern-washington-star-cooper-kupp-making-/

SPORTS
Former Eastern Washington star Cooper Kupp making big impression at Senior Bowl

FRIDAY, JAN. 27, 2017, 11:54 P.M.

Eastern Washington football fans have seen this before from Cooper Kupp. Now it’s the NFL’s turn.

The former Eagle wide receiver has been the hit of Senior Bowl week in Mobile, Alabama, filling highlight reels during every practice leading up to Saturday’s game at Ladd-Peebles Stadium.

Post routes, corner routs, curls … Kupp seemed to blossom on every branch of the route tree against top-flight competition as he built a resume beyond his record-breaking days in Cheney.

“It’s been exciting,” Kupp said. “Any time you get to come out and compete against some of the best talent and strap up the pads now instead of having to wait until spring ball, it’s exciting.”

“I’m relishing the opportunity and just having fun going out there,” Kupp said.

And the opposing defensive backs? Not so much. On Tuesday, Kupp burned Iowa’s Desmond King on a deep route. A day later, Kupp made a sideline catch that channeled Jermaine Kearse in the Seahawks’ last Super Bowl appearance.

Gushed Mike Garafalo of the NFL Network, “We’re all living in Cooper Kupp’s world, people. The Eastern Washington (wide receiver) is dazzling us with his route running again today.”

NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock offered details.

“I like this kid,” Mayock told NFL.com’s Chase Goodbread. “ … He’s fast. He won deep, he won shallow, he beat press coverage. He can win at all three levels. And he gets it. I think he’s going to play and play well very early in his NFL career.”

The ultimate compliment came from Gil Brandt, the former vice president for player personnel with the Dallas Cowboys, who Tweeted that “Cooper Kupp really helping himself at @seniorbowl. If he runs well at combine, possible he sneaks into Round 1.”

No matter what happens in the game itself, Kupp won’t be sneaking up on anyone going into the NFL Combine scheduled for Feb. 28-March 7 in Indianapolis.

Already projected to go anywhere from the second through fourth round of the NFL Draft, Kupp appears to be addressing the biggest knock from detractors: a below-average ability to get early separation.

Michigan corner Jourdan Lewis was the victim on Wednesday, according to a report from profootballfocus.com: “Kupp looked very smooth running routes and getting in and out of his breaks and gave (Lewis) and few problems in team drills.”

From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: “Kupp not only always seems to be open, he consistently snatches balls away from his body.”

The Post-Dispatch also offered this kicker, sure to rile Eastern fans: “Kupp was also a good sport while explaining the transition from small-school EWU.”

Cooper Kupp, Eastern Washington Eagles, Eastern Washington football, EWU football

 

[ramfan46]

I'd love a trade down in the 2nd and target Kupp. Another 3rd or 4th would be gold along with nabbing Kupp IMO.

 

[A.J. Hicks]

Who are our slot WRs? Austin isn't one. That leaves us with Cooper and Spruce. Neither of whom have proven anything at the NFL level. And frankly, I think the whole "he's just a slot WR" limitation usually ends up being BS, especially when you have a good offensive mind. New England has managed to build a WR corps full of "just slot WRs." Yet, those guys manage to all produce together.
.

This is exactly what I keep trying to say. With Mcvay I am not sure you are going to be able to pin point a guy who plays a specific position (XYZ, Slot, Wide, etc.).

We will see formations and players mixed to attack a defense in the best way. I have been watching a lot of Redskins offense/games since we hired Mcvay. He often will stack receivers; out wide, in the slot, in line, etc. It doesn't matter the receiver, he'll expect them to be able to block.

I am fairly confident that after this season no one will be calling Tavon a slot receiver. You may still be calling him a gadget player. . . But I think Mcvay is going to make this 'gadget' player a very productive player.

 

[BonifayRam]

I will not argue here with jrry32 post, even though I have personal wishes for a speedy outside corner or a right side OLB'er edge rusher preference with our #37 top pick but providing our most valuable player (Goff) with a offensive talent like this ..........I could not argue against for a second.

I tend to believe that the Rams roster has some covered up GOLD in it as it concerns good hands to receive with (Cooper, Woods, Hemingway, Spruce, Green, Dunbar, McRoberts, Marquez & Higbee). Now if Austin, North & Thomas could find some better hands then we really have something.

If Tavon does not get his mind right with concentration of catching & securing the ball McVay may move him out of a starting WR post all together into more of a RB multipurpose position instead. Would not surprise me at all.

 

[CanRamFan]

Where are they hiding? I haven't seen any of our holdover WRs show the ability to consistently catch the ball or run routes well.

I strongly disagree with the people who try to pigeon-hole him, but even if he is a slot WR, we don't have a proven player at that position.

Engram is also a WR3. He's a big slot WR.

A big dynamic slot WR. I'm no expert on college ball, but I love what I see from this kid and think he is a picture perfect in this offense teamed up with Higbee.

 

[jrry32]

A big dynamic slot WR. I'm no expert on college ball, but I love what I see from this kid and think he is a picture perfect in this offense teamed up with Higbee.

I don't care if you're dynamic or not. I care who can produce more at the NFL level.

If you think Engram will be more productive than a guy like Kupp, by all means, take him.

 

[lockdnram21]

Who are our slot WRs? Austin isn't one. That leaves us with Cooper and Spruce. Neither of whom have proven anything at the NFL level. And frankly, I think the whole "he's just a slot WR" limitation usually ends up being BS, especially when you have a good offensive mind. New England has managed to build a WR corps full of "just slot WRs." Yet, those guys manage to all produce together.

If Kupp and Cooper both are capable of being 1000+ yard WRs in the slot, I'm sure we can find a way to make use of both. It's not like you suddenly lose that skill-set that allows you to get open when you move outside. Wes Welker didn't stop getting open when the Patriots started running 12 personnel with Hernandez and Gronk.

We have Cooper, Spruce, Tavon, Woods can play slot.... We need a true outside threat and that's not Kupp

 

[So Ram]

I get excited about guys like this. Can he get consistent separation at this level?

Speed makes up for a lot of flaws, so I do like that he creates separation in ways outside of pure speed. And... there are times he appears plenty fast (the 2:00 mark in the video).

The rest of his game is pretty polished which is often the hardest part scouts have to project.

He had trouble in 1 on 1 's . Not a fan until 3rd dayof the draft.

 

[So Ram]

We have Cooper, Spruce, Tavon, Woods can play slot.... We need a true outside threat and that's not Kupp

Agreed !! Way to many times The Rams have made crap draft at the position on guys like him . Will see what McVay thinks. He will have a big say in that pick .