If we draft a WR early, it should be...

[Merlin]

Tavon, Marquez, and Cooper are slot receivers. So is Nelson Spruce. TE's are typically used in the slot as well....We are loaded up to the yazoo, in guys that work out of the slot.

This is true, but one thing to remember is the Z (flanker) has similarities to the slot in its ability to motion and get a guy a free release. So really the Rams are loaded with Y&Z receiving options. If Tavon improves as a route runner he could be a very good flanker, maybe even elite due to his big play speed. Big if, granted, but still.

The Rams big need is split end (X). Woods was signed to "take the edge off" the need, but he's not really a long term answer there due to his limited athleticism. Most teams' top CBs are going to win most snaps against him. So nothing has really changed there.

There isn't going to be a guy who's a sure thing as a split end for us there in round 2. All of the options have question marks. Kupp's is his speed, but when he opens up he's got some wheels and he didn't just survive the Senior Bowl week vs some of the best CBs, he was open all over the joint. That long TD he scored on King (who ran a 4.43) was a thing of beauty and demonstrates that he's got some long speed. As I mentioned I think this guy is a lot more than he's given credit for, but yeah we'll have to wait and see.

 

[LACHAMP46]

there is no production coming from, therefore no true slot guy.

Not entirely on the wrs....Especially the ones that lack targets.

 

[Boston Ram]

Not entirely on the wrs....Especially the ones that lack targets.

Come on man....who are you calling out on this? lol.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Come on man....who are you calling out on this? lol.

Britt had 1000 yards. Quick had 500....Tavon had 100+ targets...

So, some of them...even Kendricks, were productive. I can't blame wrs for 5 yard routes, when we needed 8 yards for a 1st down. I can't...That's play call. I can't blame wr's that ARE OPEN downfield, yet the ball is not thrown. I really can't blame them when the QB doesn't have enough time. Are they the most dynamic core in the game? No....but many teams seem to get along just fine with similar talent...Some with less.

Would I like a talent up grade? Sure, who wouldn't. but to assume that these receivers are any less talented than the league average is a mistake. I think there are several wide outs ball:in this draft that can be coached up. And a lot of them can be found in rounds 4 & 5...maybe even 6.

 

[Boston Ram]

Britt had 1000 yards. Quick had 500....Tavon had 100+ targets...

So, some of them...even Kendricks, were productive. I can't blame wrs for 5 yard routes, when we needed 8 yards for a 1st down. I can't...That's play call. I can't blame wr's that ARE OPEN downfield, yet the ball is not thrown. I really can't blame them when the QB doesn't have enough time. Are they the most dynamic core in the game? No....but many teams seem to get along just fine with similar talent...Some with less.

Would I like a talent up grade? Sure, who wouldn't. but to assume that these receivers are any less talented than the league average is a mistake. I think there are several wide outs ball:in this draft that can be coached up. And a lot of them can be found in rounds 4 & 5...maybe even 6.

Well said brother....I agree!

 

[codeman]

I appreciate the write up Jrry.

Kupp is a good wr prospect, but meh. There's better prospects there, especially if he's going in round 2.

Pros - He has very good hands, probably tied for the best hands with Zay Jones, and he does a very good job shielding defenders and making tough catches. He tries very hard and plays smart.
Cons - He's so slow. It looks like he's running in quicksand and it takes him forever to get up to speed when he's forced to stop. Kupp is just not good enough athletically to play on the outside. I can't believe people want him to play the Z receiver. I agree with the reception perception post that he is strictly a slot receiver. He really struggled on the outside in college and made most of his plays out of the slot.

A slot WR with good hands is very valuable, but here's the problem. As a prospect he's a old, unathletic, possession slot receiver. Guys like Taywan Taylor, Carlos Henderson, Chris Godwin, Zay Jones, Juju are just better and more dynamic prospects. In round 2 or even 3 its hard to take a player like Kupp. If you want a pure slot WR there's Ryan Switzer and Trent Taylor who are awesome and will probably go in round 5/6. If they want a slot WR just take a better prospect (like a db) on day 2 and take Switzer day 3.

He's on the Nelson Spruce, Willie Snead, Jarvis Landry spectrum of slow slot WRs with good hands. I'm not arguing if he will play for a team, but he's well below other prospects for me. The other WRs are more dynamic play-makers and that's where i put my value.

 

[lockdnram21]

No thanks another slot receiver... He's going to be drafted to high

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32 if we wanted Kupp do you think we need to grab him at the top of the 2nd, or does he project as more of a late 2nd-early third round WR?

I think we can trade down.

 

[jrry32]

I appreciate the write up Jrry.

Kupp is a good wr prospect, but meh. There's better prospects there, especially if he's going in round 2.

Pros - He has very good hands, probably tied for the best hands with Zay Jones, and he does a very good job shielding defenders and making tough catches. He tries very hard and plays smart.
Cons - He's so slow. It looks like he's running in quicksand and it takes him forever to get up to speed when he's forced to stop. Kupp is just not good enough athletically to play on the outside. I can't believe people want him to play the Z receiver. I agree with the reception perception post that he is strictly a slot receiver. He really struggled on the outside in college and made most of his plays out of the slot.

It takes forever for him to get up to speed? If anything, it's the opposite. He gets up to speed quickly, but he doesn't have the top-end speed to breakaway. Although, that's debatable because the tape doesn't reflect that perception.

Is Keenan Allen athletic enough to play outside? Allen has a nearly identical athletic skill-set to Kupp. Both lack amazing timed speed but have insane quickness, cutting ability, and suddenness. Like Allen, Kupp is also an extremely polished player with strong mitts.

Hell, I remember people feeling uncertain about DeAndre Hopkins, Michael Thomas (Saints), and Antonio Brown playing outside because of their timed speed (all timed around a 4.57 40 at the Combine).

Kupp can play any WR spot. And for a guy who "really struggled on the outside in college," his film and production certainly don't reflect that. He tore teams up both when outside and in the slot. He burnt Marcus Peters and Bubba Baker a couple years ago when he was lined up outside.

A slot WR with good hands is very valuable, but here's the problem. As a prospect he's a old, unathletic, possession slot receiver. Guys like Taywan Taylor, Carlos Henderson, Chris Godwin, Zay Jones, Juju are just better and more dynamic prospects. In round 2 or even 3 its hard to take a player like Kupp. If you want a pure slot WR there's Ryan Switzer and Trent Taylor who are awesome and will probably go in round 5/6. If they want a slot WR just take a better prospect (like a db) on day 2 and take Switzer day 3.

Taywan Taylor, Zay Jones, and Juju all offer the same type of skill-set but are worse players than Kupp at this point in time. Henderson isn't even in the conversation for me. He's a completely different type of player and is very raw.

Switzer and Taylor are as comparable to Kupp as they are to Henderson.

I don't want a slot WR. I want Cooper Kupp; a 6'2" 205 WR with insane quickness, phenomenal hands, and a very polished skill-set.

He's on the Nelson Spruce, Willie Snead, Jarvis Landry spectrum of slow slot WRs with good hands. I'm not arguing if he will play for a team, but he's well below other prospects for me. The other WRs are more dynamic play-makers and that's where i put my value.

First of all, you just named two highly productive WRs. The Rams have done FAAAAAAAAAAAAR worse than Jarvis Landry and Willie Snead while trying to address the WR position. Second of all, Spruce wasn't a remotely comparable prospect to what Kupp is. He wasn't the athlete that Kupp is, and he wasn't the football player that Kupp is. That's coming from someone who likes Spruce.

Kupp has a skill-set that closely mirrors Keenan Allen's. Of course, Keenan Allen was a first round talent who fell to the third round because people convinced themselves that he was too slow to play outside.(his foot injury also factored in)

You put your value in the "dynamic playmakers." Give me the guys who aren't "dynamic." I'll take the guys with dominant route running ability and hands.

No thanks another slot receiver... He's going to be drafted to high

Is Keenan Allen just a slot WR?

You don't put a kid out wide with numbers like this.

Man, I like this kids game...can't lie. And he didn't look slow on film...Didn't appear slow at the senior bowl practices. And I love the way he gets open....

But

We have 2 slot wr's on the team...Cooper...and Tavon should be if he got his head outta his....well...and we'll probably use a TE in there as well...

This position could turn into the SS position...over-drafted.

I think he could fall to the 4th round...probably 5th...this is a deep draft.

Yet, teams do. Getting open in the NFL comes down to more than numbers. The greatest WR in the history of the NFL was the same size and ran nearly the exact same 40. I'm not comparing Kupp to Jerry Rice, but the point is that being a great football player trumps being a great athlete.

If he plays fast and gets open, who cares about the numbers?

Tavon isn't a slot WR. And Kupp isn't pigeon-holed to the slot either.

In fact, here's Keenan Allen's 40 time from a few years ago:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...nan-allen-clocks-471-in-40-mayock-doesnt-care

 

[RamsFlash80]

Im still hoping because of his combine 40 he does slide to Round 3. Love this kid no matter that 40 time. Hes plenty fast on tape.

 

[Riverumbbq]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPoYATbGxA

 

[OldSchool]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPoYATbGxA

I'm so damned tired of seeing him at this point I'd throw a party if he never plays in the NFL again. This idiot infiltrates every thread it seems.

 

[jrry32]

Yea, let's stick to college WRs.

 

[A.J. Hicks]

I know it isn't the full playbook. But I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with the way Mcvay designs formations.

He so often has everyone stacked in the slot. Or heavy on the short side of the field. He'll line Higbee up outside. etc.

Kupp would be a great fit with the arsenal already. We already have a bunch of guys that can be deployed anywhere. The more you can mix and match those things the better chance you have at exploiting matchups.

 

[Sportsed]

Nice write-up, Kupp's good and I think will be successful in the league, but for what we need (and likely to be there), it has to be Chris Godwin. Pair Godwin with Woods----in fact Chris is a bigger, faster, stronger version----and watch our passing game flourish. Get that combo TE Kittle----the guy who's faster and already blocks better than Higbee----and our offense will improve tremendously. Anyway, it's Godwin if he's there.

 

[lockdnram21]

It takes forever for him to get up to speed? If anything, it's the opposite. He gets up to speed quickly, but he doesn't have the top-end speed to breakaway. Although, that's debatable because the tape doesn't reflect that perception.

Is Keenan Allen athletic enough to play outside? Allen has a nearly identical athletic skill-set to Kupp. Both lack amazing timed speed but have insane quickness, cutting ability, and suddenness. Like Allen, Kupp is also an extremely polished player with strong mitts.

Hell, I remember people feeling uncertain about DeAndre Hopkins, Michael Thomas (Saints), and Antonio Brown playing outside because of their timed speed (all timed around a 4.57 40 at the Combine).

Kupp can play any WR spot. And for a guy who "really struggled on the outside in college," his film and production certainly don't reflect that. He tore teams up both when outside and in the slot. He burnt Marcus Peters and Bubba Baker a couple years ago when he was lined up outside.



Taywan Taylor, Zay Jones, and Juju all offer the same type of skill-set but are worse players than Kupp at this point in time. Henderson isn't even in the conversation for me. He's a completely different type of player and is very raw.

Switzer and Taylor are as comparable to Kupp as they are to Henderson.

I don't want a slot WR. I want Cooper Kupp; a 6'2" 205 WR with insane quickness, phenomenal hands, and a very polished skill-set.



First of all, you just named two highly productive WRs. The Rams have done FAAAAAAAAAAAAR worse than Jarvis Landry and Willie Snead while trying to address the WR position. Second of all, Spruce wasn't a remotely comparable prospect to what Kupp is. He wasn't the athlete that Kupp is, and he wasn't the football player that Kupp is. That's coming from someone who likes Spruce.

Kupp has a skill-set that closely mirrors Keenan Allen's. Of course, Keenan Allen was a first round talent who fell to the third round because people convinced themselves that he was too slow to play outside.(his foot injury also factored in)

You put your value in the "dynamic playmakers." Give me the guys who aren't "dynamic." I'll take the guys with dominant route running ability and hands.



Is Keenan Allen just a slot WR?



Yet, teams do. Getting open in the NFL comes down to more than numbers. The greatest WR in the history of the NFL was the same size and ran nearly the exact same 40. I'm not comparing Kupp to Jerry Rice, but the point is that being a great football player trumps being a great athlete.

If he plays fast and gets open, who cares about the numbers?

Tavon isn't a slot WR. And Kupp isn't pigeon-holed to the slot either.

In fact, here's Keenan Allen's 40 time from a few years ago:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...nan-allen-clocks-471-in-40-mayock-doesnt-care

Kennan Allen was also coming off injury so his time was probably affected... If I were rams I stay away from Kupp

 

[StealYoGurley]

Im glad Keenan Allen was mentioned. Allen's production in college at a young age speaks to my point about Age Adjusted Production. Allen will be 25 heading into his 5th season in the NFL. Kupp will be a 24 year old rookie. Metrics also say Allen was one of the best in the NFL separating from man before he got injured last year. Kupp's 59.1% success rate vs. man places him in the 23rd percentile of WRs charted the past two years in Reception Perception.

 

[jrry32]

Kennan Allen was also coming off injury so his time was probably affected... If I were rams I stay away from Kupp

Keenan Allen was seen as speed-deficient before the slow 40. People said the same thing about Allen that they're now saying about Kupp. "Yea, he has great hands and runs quality routes, but he isn't fast enough to play outside." Yet, great hands and quality routes seem to work quite well in the NFL too. In fact, people levied the same criticisms at DeAndre Hopkins too.

If I'm the Rams, I don't stay away from the players who catch the ball and run routes like a pro. Going after raw athletes is how we ended up with nothing at the WR position since Holt/Bruce left.

 

[jrry32]

Im glad Keenan Allen was mentioned. Allen's production in college at a young age speaks to my point about Age Adjusted Production. Allen will be 25 heading into his 5th season in the NFL. Kupp will be a 24 year old rookie. Metrics also say Allen was one of the best in the NFL separating from man before he got injured last year. Kupp's 59.1% success rate vs. man places him in the 23rd percentile of WRs charted the past two years in Reception Perception.

Kupp posted 1691 yards and 21 TDs as a freshman. He tore up Washington's secondary as a sophomore (8 catches for 145 yards and 3 TDs). A secondary that included first round pick Marcus Peters, projected first round pick Sidney Jones (before the injury), projected top 50 pick Bubba Baker, and projected top 50 pick Kevin King.

When something like Reception Perception doesn't match the film, it's easy to choose which one to toss out. If Kupp was so incapable of getting open, how did he post such amazing production? Further, if Kupp was so incapable of getting open, how was he better than any WR in this draft at converting targets to catches (that's directly from Reception Perception)?

It's too bad that we didn't have Reception Perception back when Allen was coming out. I bet it would have docked Allen just like it did Kupp. That's the issue with metrics like that. They have limitations that a lot of people don't care to recognize.

I have no doubt that Allen does quite well at the NFL level when it comes to separation. I bet Kupp will too. NFL teams give their WRs a lot more freedom than college teams do. That benefits the guys who process things quickly, run quality routes, and have high football IQs greatly.

 

[StealYoGurley]

When something like Reception Perception doesn't match the film, it's easy to choose which one to toss out. If Kupp was so incapable of getting open, how did he post such amazing production? Further, if Kupp was so incapable of getting open, how was he better than any WR in this draft at converting targets to catches (that's directly from Reception Perception)?

But it does match the film. I didn't say he didn't say he was incapable of getting open I said he didn't separate vs man coverage. The whole point of reception perception is charting what WRs do on a route to route basis by watching film, then using that charting information too see where they stack up against other prospects. If you read what he wrote he said Kupp faced much more zone coverage playing the majority of his snaps on the inside and was quite successful in that regard. Here is the section in his success rate vs man, zone, and press.

It feels awfully aggressive to pigeonhole a receiver into a role before he’s taken an NFL snap. However, Kupp’s Reception Perception Success Rate vs. Coverage scores bear out that reality.

Naturally, as an inside receiver, Kupp faced far more zone coverage than he did isolated man-to-man defenders. Kupp registered 124 attempts against man coverage in his sampled games and did a solid job at getting open. His 77.4 percent success rate vs. coverage when facing zones is within the two-year prospect average. Kupp shows an ability to sift through zones and will assist his team as a chain mover against that brand of coverage in the NFL.

The struggles for Kupp come when asked to beat tight man coverage, and it is within these metrics we find the questions about his success as an outside receiver at the pro level. Kupp’s 59.1 percent success rate vs. man coverage is just above the 23rd percentile among prospects charted the last two years. Similarly, his success rate vs. press coverage of 52.3 percent checks in below the 27th percentile.

It’s a stretch to believe a player, no matter how productive on paper they may be, that struggled to consistently beat man coverage at a low-level of collegiate football will be able to transition to the outside in the NFL. Technical prowess is essential for most wide receivers to win as route-runners in the league, but even the most proficient technicians can be rendered moot when they lack the tangible athletic gifts of an average NFL receiver. After the scouting combine, we know Kupp falls into that group.