Hole at WR is a problem

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RamFan503

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Except Tutu wasn’t doing that when they needed him to in the last four years.

Brandon Cooks did that. Even Van Jefferson did that. They could have used some of that field stretching at the end of the season when teams were playing man and blanketing the Rams receivers.
Brandon Cooks was signed to be our #1 WR and we were paying him almost $20 million per year IN 2018. That's not even really a comparison. VJ had one pretty decent year when our offense was really clicking. I don't recall him being a huge influence on opening up the offense outside of that one year. Outside of that one year, he has averaged about 200 yards per. Not exactly someone who struck fear in a defense.

You can argue that Atwell was drafted too high but after not really playing at all, he's improved each year and I don't see that changing this next year.
 

RamFan503

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If he was a hot commodity he would have made much more than $11M.
I'm confused. $11 million (actually 10) is too much, yet it is not enough to mean he could be an important piece. It seems to me that he signed a pretty typical post-rookie prove it deal for a 3rd receiver. The idea that no one was offering $20 million is kind of an odd argument. He may very well have been looking at $10 million from other teams. He NO DOUBT was in talks with McVay and Sean probably painted a picture of his proposed new role with the team. In a way, this may be a prove it deal for both sides. If he proves out, he is worth more. If the Rams plans (guessing there's a new plan for him) prove out, he will not only be worth more, but he will enjoy his time more, and the Rams would likely be inclined to pay him more to stay or we would get a decent comp pick.
 

RamFan503

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My guesstimate on the yards is a little more optimistic.
I much prefer reading optimistic posts to "realist" or pessimistic posts. I just don't have fun with bitching and moaning - especially when no one really knows what is going on behind closed doors.

Cheers man.
 

Merlin

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I'm confused. $11 million (actually 10) is too much, yet it is not enough to mean he could be an important piece. It seems to me that he signed a pretty typical post-rookie prove it deal for a 3rd receiver. The idea that no one was offering $20 million is kind of an odd argument. He may very well have been looking at $10 million from other teams. He NO DOUBT was in talks with McVay and Sean probably painted a picture of his proposed new role with the team. In a way, this may be a prove it deal for both sides. If he proves out, he is worth more. If the Rams plans (guessing there's a new plan for him) prove out, he will not only be worth more, but he will enjoy his time more, and the Rams would likely be inclined to pay him more to stay or we would get a decent comp pick.
Well there are different opinions here so I can't speak to $11 being too much. Because my opinion is that $11M this year seems to be the going rate for a fringe starter WR.

So. Reviewing this exchange... IF he was a hot commodity around the league he would not have returned to the Rams for $11M on a one year prove it deal. And I'm quite sure about that too. So if you want to disagree cool.
 

FrantikRam

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In the games Kupp & Nacua were not available the Rams were 2-3. Tutu did step his game up a bit but it wasn't even close to what either of those two provide in terms of being able to move the chains and score points and actually win games.

FA comes and clearly Tutu had very little interest on the FA market, so he signs with the Rams on a one year prove-it type deal at $11M. Which seems to be the basic value for that level of contract at the WR position.

For 2025 maybe there are big plans for him and perhaps Tutu shows out. I would love that. But this need to crown the little bastid before he earns it is BS. This need to act like the Rams somehow wronged him by not focusing everything on him, when we clearly saw this team was not a playoff caliber unit without Kupp and Nacua. Tutu was simply not good enough to reverse that fact.

Considering what it looks like with an actual X function out there that teams have to worry about in Adams is exciting. Plus Nacua offering the underneath threat. Because now maybe Tutu can be that dagger for the offense like Hakim was at times for the GSoT, Welker with the Patriots, etc. But the truth is little dudes require the big dogs to eat attention, unless they're that rare dog like Steve Smith. And he ain't that.


Well hold on, I think you're conflating two different view points. I'm definitely not "crowning him" - but I do think this validates a feeling I had last year, that he should have been getting more snaps, and I think the offense would have benefitted from him being out there.

Now, whether that is because he would have been on the field for Kupp or maybe he WAS in the doghouse for some reason, that's fine.

But the dude had 500 yards receiving last year along with a few deep PIs on what I am going to guess was 40% of the offensive snaps....his yards per route run was very good. He looked good to me (and obviously a few others here)...

I don't think anyone is saying this was a home run, or even a "great" move. I think that some of us are happy with the move, and then others are unhappy with it.

I don't see any logic for the ones unhappy with it other than they just never really liked him....because for me, I would bet in todays NFL, any receiver who had the year Tutu did last year (the production relative to the low snap count) and is a FA is going to get somewhere between 8-12 million per season.

But make no mistake - the best chance for this offense is him being the third WR, we ALL agree on that, I guarantee you.
 

Merlin

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Well hold on, I think you're conflating two different view points. I'm definitely not "crowning him" - but I do think this validates a feeling I had last year, that he should have been getting more snaps, and I think the offense would have benefitted from him being out there.

Now, whether that is because he would have been on the field for Kupp or maybe he WAS in the doghouse for some reason, that's fine.

But the dude had 500 yards receiving last year along with a few deep PIs on what I am going to guess was 40% of the offensive snaps....his yards per route run was very good. He looked good to me (and obviously a few others here)...

I don't think anyone is saying this was a home run, or even a "great" move. I think that some of us are happy with the move, and then others are unhappy with it.

I don't see any logic for the ones unhappy with it other than they just never really liked him....because for me, I would bet in todays NFL, any receiver who had the year Tutu did last year (the production relative to the low snap count) and is a FA is going to get somewhere between 8-12 million per season.

But make no mistake - the best chance for this offense is him being the third WR, we ALL agree on that, I guarantee you.
Well I can predict with complete confidence that the following will occur in 2025:

1. Tutu will have some good games and some games he disappears.

2. His fans will complain that he is not utilized enough.

3. He will move on after the season to another team.

But maybe I'm wrong. And I'd love to be wrong on point 1. I'd love to see him put up a huge year, but to expect a leopard to change his spots is not a winning mindset. So we'll see what happens but believe it or not I always root for him.
 

Ram Ts

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Well there are different opinions here so I can't speak to $11 being too much. Because my opinion is that $11M this year seems to be the going rate for a fringe starter WR.

So. Reviewing this exchange... IF he was a hot commodity around the league he would not have returned to the Rams for $11M on a one year prove it deal. And I'm quite sure about that too. So if you want to disagree cool.
TuTu was signed for $10M (not 11M).
 
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You seem to be forgetting a very major point.

When Kupp and Nacua were out last year and Atwell and Robinson were starting, the O-Line was completely banged up and we were playing backups, shuffling bodies in and out and playing guys out of position.

You seem to forget that Stafford was having to throw under duress on every dropback, and there was no Oline continuity at all. Adjustments were made, and routes were shortened to get the ball out as quickly as possible.

In spite of that Atwell had really good numbers in those circumstances, far superior to Robinson's, while drawing the tougher db assignments.

Also, saying that Atwell drew little interest in free agency is off the mark. What was your source for that? The Rams moved to sign him immediately at the opening of free agency, and $10million is a very decent salary for a nonstarting player.

By contrast, Robinson and a host of other free agent passcatchers are still on the market. The market for Robinson is rumored to be in the $3million range, though he does have a pending legal case hanging over him.

Also, your reference to Atwell's size is irritating, it would be nice if people would get over the talk about his size, really just get over it. He won't be growing any more

Judge him, like any player by his performance.

You can make a case that from a pure receiving perspective, Atwell offered more than Kupp last year and certainly opened up the field better, and scared defences a lot more.

Our passing offence last year was very one-dimensional - essentially it was the Puka show, and it speaks to Puka's dominance that he was basically unstoppable despite drawing double teams, overloads, and most of the focus of the defence.

Well I can predict with complete confidence that the following will occur in 2025:

1. Tutu will have some good games and some games he disappears.

2. His fans will complain that he is not utilized enough.

3. He will move on after the season to another team.

But maybe I'm wrong. And I'd love to be wrong on point 1. I'd love to see him put up a huge year, but to expect a leopard to change his spots is not a winning mindset. So we'll see what happens but believe it or not I always root for him.

I have a problem with your analysis, and it's the same problem I have with other posters who have arrived at their conclusions about Atwell based upon his limited stats, his size, or the belief that he can't play because the coaches put him lower on the receiver depth charts - tacit implication that they assessed him as inferior to a number of other Rams receivers.

Posters have mentioned Atwell's lack of productivity relative to his draft position, which I find absolutely ridiculous because you can only catch the ball when it's thrown to you, and you can only catch the ball when you're on the field, you can only produce when you're given the opportunity, and you can't throw the ball to yourself when you're open on a deep go route for an easy touchdown.

I cannot believe that there are posters comparing Atwell unfavorably to Van Jefferson.

Atwell is faster, has much better hands, can catch the ball over the middle, and doesn't have Jefferson's timidity/fear when going after the ball.

Jefferson played small and intimidated, lacked presence out there, and there was just no growth in his game.

Trust me, Atwell wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes on the open market. Other teams saw what McVay didn't, and I'm sure McVay and Snead got wind of the buzz from agents, other GM's and coaches, and they reassessed what Atwell could do for the Rams.

There was nothing in the way that Atwell was used (or not used) in the playoffs which suggested that he'd be back with the Rams, so I think the evaluations of others may have had something to do with the Rams' sudden U-turn on Atwell, because he was as good as gone.

I do not understand what the Rams coaches do not see in Atwell, and they have the benefit of film, so there's no excuse.

To be fair coaches are human and I've coached multiple sports at high levels for most of my life and I can assure you that you can get caught up in personal likes and dislikes, preconceived judgements and other factors that can cloud your opinion of a player's performance or value.

McVay gave Noteboom a second contract in spite of the fact that he was a nightmare lineman. Longtime Rams fans may remember offensive lineman Jason Smith drafted 2nd overall out of Baylor. He - like Noteboom - was given ample playing time by his coaches despite specializing in getting his quarterback killed. Yet their coaches continually trotted these guys out there.

Coaches make mistakes, and they have favourites, and prejudices. Sometimes they like a player's personality, their humour, intelligence, how they treat people, their families. Coaches are human, they make mistakes.

The Rams didn't see it, but other teams clearly did. That is that Atwell is an impact player who can give you instant offence, and really that's not that common in the NFL folks.
 
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You seem to be forgetting a very major point.

When Kupp and Nacua were out last year and Atwell and Robinson were starting, the O-Line was completely banged up and we were playing backups, shuffling bodies in and out and playing guys out of position.

You seem to forget that Stafford was having to throw under duress on every dropback, and there was no Oline continuity at all. Adjustments were made, and routes were shortened to get the ball out as quickly as possible.

In spite of that Atwell had really good numbers in those circumstances, far superior to Robinson's, while drawing the tougher db assignments.

Also, saying that Atwell drew little interest in free agency is off the mark. What was your source for that? The Rams moved to sign him immediately at the opening of free agency, and $10million is a very decent salary for a nonstarting player.

By contrast, Robinson and a host of other free agent passcatchers are still on the market. The market for Robinson is rumored to be in the $3million range, though he does have a pending legal case hanging over him.

Also, your reference to Atwell's size is irritating, it would be nice if people would get over the talk about his size, really just get over it. He won't be growing any more

Judge him, like any player by his performance.

You can make a case that from a pure receiving perspective, Atwell offered more than Kupp last year and certainly opened up the field better, and scared defences a lot more.

Our passing offence last year was very one-dimensional - essentially it was the Puka show, and it speaks to Puka's dominance that he was basically unstoppable despite drawing double teams, overloads, and most of the focus of the defence.

Well I can predict with complete confidence that the following will occur in 2025:

1. Tutu will have some good games and some games he disappears.

2. His fans will complain that he is not utilized enough.

3. He will move on after the season to another team.

But maybe I'm wrong. And I'd love to be wrong on point 1. I'd love to see him put up a huge year, but to expect a leopard to change his spots is not a winning mindset. So we'll see what happens but believe it or not I always root for him.

I have a problem with your analysis, and it's the same problem I have with other posters who have arrived at their conclusions about Atwell based upon his limited stats, his size, or the belief that he can't play because the coaches put him lower on the receiver depth charts - tacit implication that they assessed him as inferior to a number of other Rams receivers.

Posters have mentioned Atwell's lack of productivity relative to his draft position, which I find absolutely ridiculous because you can only catch the ball when it's thrown to you, and you can only catch the ball when you're on the field, you can only produce when you're given the opportunity, and you can't throw the ball to yourself when you're open on a deep go route for an easy touchdown.

I cannot believe that there are posters comparing Atwell unfavorably to Van Jefferson.

Atwell is faster, has much better hands, can catch the ball over the middle, and doesn't have Jefferson's timidity/fear when going after the ball.

Jefferson played small and intimidated, lacked presence out there, and there was just no growth in his game.

Trust me, Atwell wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes on the open market. Other teams saw what McVay didn't, and I'm sure McVay and Snead got wind of the buzz from agents, other GM's and coaches, and they reassessed what Atwell could do for the Rams.

There was nothing in the way that Atwell was used (or not used) in the playoffs which suggested that he'd be back with the Rams, so I think the evaluations of others may have had something to do with the Rams' sudden U-turn on Atwell, because he was as good as gone.

I do not understand what the Rams coaches do not see in Atwell, and they have the benefit of film.l, so there's no excuse.

Coaches are human and can get caught up in

The man is an impact player who can give you instant offence and that's not that common in the NFL.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Brandon Cooks was signed to be our #1 WR and we were paying him almost $20 million per year IN 2018. That's not even really a comparison. VJ had one pretty decent year when our offense was really clicking. I don't recall him being a huge influence on opening up the offense outside of that one year. Outside of that one year, he has averaged about 200 yards per. Not exactly someone who struck fear in a defense.

You can argue that Atwell was drafted too high but after not really playing at all, he's improved each year and I don't see that changing this next year.
Until he proves that he can do it every week and the coaches don’t bump him to the fourth spot, there is no sense in anyone declaring him underutilized or a break out player.

If he does what they want and is making plays I’ll gladly eat crow. I’ll be very excited that he finally lived up to his draft position. But I went through this with Noteboom and Allen. A lot of people on here told me how good they were and those players never proved it, on the field.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Geno threw for over 4000 yards and DK still didn't get to 1,000 yards. The dude would be a major head case and doesn't strike me as putting his team first. Glad he went elsewhere. Actually, I think the Steelers are a good location for him with Tomlin as HC.

Is anyone arguing that TuTu is suddenly better than Kupp? It's not like TuTu got #1 money. TuTu is a completely different chess piece and would never be considered a replacement for a receiver like Kupp.

Moving on from Kupp appears to be a real change in direction for the offense - as some have said, ripping the band-aide off. I just don't think you do that 3/4 of the way through the season. I definitely got the impression from listening to McVay that he was going to make some major changes to the offense and the strategy behind it. I think our FA moves are demonstrating that.

A small side issue is that you also would be removing any real chance of getting a return for Kupp if you suddenly stopped trotting him out there. This is not to even consider taking a big body receiver off the field.

I'm not sure how you know anything about his FA market. Has there been any news on that either way? The Rams moved to sign him before anyone else had the opportunity. It could be that there was quite a bit of interest.

I don't see how defending us keeping him is somehow crowning him in any way. As you said, it's a 1 year prove it deal. Now he needs to prove out. But I think the only real reason that he was resigned is that they had a vision of going in another direction - a shift that you are very unlikely to try to pull off most of the way through the season with the playoffs a real possibility. Hopefully TuTu can help in that direction. If not, it's a 1 year deal with the only downside being the salary. If he hits better benchmarks, IMO he is very much worth that salary compared to other receivers in similar positions.

I assumed from the moment we resigned the diminutive receiver that we were going to see a new offensive design. I think the signing of DA just further cements that. I will also not be surprised in the least if we go after a potential game breaking RB with our first pick just to further that agenda.

Absolutely. And I don't expect him to have a huge increase over last year. I'm thinking around 700 maybe 800 yards, and a few more big PI calls. I see him being used between the 20s more than in redzone, so he probably won't have much of a scoring impact (stats-wise).

I think there may be a lot to this theory.

Always a good question. My thought is overall offensive design. I don't think we had many teams double teaming even Puka - certainly not Kupp. They also didn't fear our TEs or a game breaking running game. We played gritty football. This season, I think you're going to see a more explosive offense and a very active defense.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's going to be a really fun year on both sides of the ball and TuTu is going to be a bigger part of that.
You missed the point. Kupp was blanketed in the final four games. So was Robinson. Someone here is claiming Tutu is this great underused man beater. Like my other reply to you. There’s no use in anyone declaring Tutu as some player who coaches misused and is way better than he’s shown, until he proves it. Jourdan said the plan is for Tutu to stretch the field. Let’s see how he does before crowning him for getting a one year deal.
 

DzRams

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You missed the point. Kupp was blanketed in the final four games. So was Robinson. Someone here is claiming Tutu is this great underused man beater. Like my other reply to you. There’s no use in anyone declaring Tutu as some player who coaches misused and is way better than he’s shown, until he proves it. Jourdan said the plan is for Tutu to stretch the field. Let’s see how he does before crowning him for getting a one year deal.
I agree that Tutu needs to prove that he was underutilized. But it's not just fans saying that he was underutilized, per Jourdan McVay says he was underutilized and it was his fault.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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It could also be that fans who never liked the pick and ragged on the players for years are going to keep doing so.

He played well last year when he got a chance. That really wasn't difficult to see. I disagree about the separation - on multiple times he ran comeback routes where the CB was afraid of his speed and was wide open - that was and is an element that nobody else in the room brings.
It has nothing to do with not liking the pick. Regardless of liking the pick or not I always root for the players. I hated the Cam Akers and Van Jefferson picks, but I still rooted for them.

If Tutu was starting for the last two years do you really think I’d be ragging on him? If he was playing at Puka’s level I’d be elated.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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I agree that Tutu needs to prove that he was underutilized. But it's not just fans saying that he was underutilized, per Jourdan McVay says he was underutilized and it was his fault.
I never pay attention to coach speak. That could be a tactic to build Tutu’s confidence. He’s said positive things about Noteboom and Brian Allen in the past. He praised Coleman Shelton then didn’t bother to sign him. He was praising Troy Reeder last year.

What do you expect a coach to say when discussing players? McVay wisely keeps the constructive criticism in house.
 

DzRams

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I never pay attention to coach speak. That could be a tactic to build Tutu’s confidence. He’s said positive things about Noteboom and Brian Allen in the past. He praised Coleman Shelton then didn’t bother to sign him. He was praising Troy Reeder last year.

What do you expect a coach to say when discussing players? McVay wisely keeps the constructive criticism in house.
I agree that normally coach speak should be discounted, but when paired with $10 mil. that's different. He didn't have to resign the guy. McVay obviously believes he was underutilized or else he wouldn't have said that while handing him $10m. Common sense, right?
 

Elmgrovegnome

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I agree that normally coach speak should be discounted, but when paired with $10 mil. that's different. He didn't have to resign the guy. McVay obviously believes he was underutilized or else he wouldn't have said that while handing him $10m. Common sense, right?
I disagree. It’s a one year deal to see how it works. If it was three years I’d agree.

Also could they really deplete the receiving group that much? With Kupp gone and neither Demarcus or Tyler signed they’d only have two receivers that actually played, Puka and Whittington. That’s only two that actually know the offense and have worked with Stafford. That would be risky.
 

DzRams

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I disagree. It’s a one year deal to see how it works. If it was three years I’d agree.

Also could they really deplete the receiving group that much? With Kupp gone and neither Demarcus or Tyler signed they’d only have two receivers that actually played, Puka and Whittington. That’s only two that actually know the offense and have worked with Stafford. That would be risky.
Sure, it's one year to see how things work but it would be zero years if they didn't believe that there is potential in his skillset that remains to be unlocked.

Why not pay the $10m to DRob or Tyler? DRob is begging to come back. Nothing, including continuity with someone knowing the offense, forced them to pay Tutu specifically.
 

FrantikRam

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It has nothing to do with not liking the pick. Regardless of liking the pick or not I always root for the players. I hated the Cam Akers and Van Jefferson picks, but I still rooted for them.

If Tutu was starting for the last two years do you really think I’d be ragging on him? If he was playing at Puka’s level I’d be elated.

What does starting have to do with it? It's good that you bring up Jefferson, because considering Van played like 90% of the snaps when he had his best year with us, Tutu's season last year was better than any year Jefferson has had. He just didn't get the snaps. But on a per snap basis, I am pretty sure Tutu was better. And that is my point