Havenstien, Should He Start?

[bubbaramfan]

OT will definitely be on the 2020 shopping list.

 

[BonifayRam]

OT will definitely be on the 2020 shopping list.

Does Amazon sale OT's

when does the NFL OT Trade Shopping network for GM's start again?

Can we wait till the NFL draft 3 days in April 2020

Thank goodness the 2nd hand soiled & refurbished BADWILL WWC shopping center OT store open 24 hrs a day 7 days a week 12 months of the year

 

[bubbaramfan]

I hear Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio St. have OT's for sale.

 

[So Ram]

I hear Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio St. have OT's for sale.

I think The Rams will be looking more towards developing what they have on hand. Yes they have a couple guys from Wisconsin who have more experience, plus
Another from Oklahoma. Even a Old veteran from LSU !!

 

[BonifayRam]

The curious case of the 2019 Los Angeles Rams’ offensive line

The Rams’ bugaboo in 2019? Their inconsistency. And no unit has exemplified that more than their big beefy boys up front. 3k takes a look at the unit as is and the decisions that lie ahead.

www.turfshowtimes.com

The curious case of the 2019 Los Angeles Rams’ offensive line

The Rams’ bugaboo in 2019? Their inconsistency. And no unit has exemplified that more than their big beefy boys up front. 3k takes a look at the unit as is and the decisions that lie ahead

Had we polled Los Angeles Rams fans a month ago, a majority would have likely indicated that the top roster gap heading out of 2019 would be the offensive line. That’s especially true given that a month ago, we were reeling from the aftermath of the Rams’ loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers in Week 10 in which Joey the Jerk was largely panned for giving the offensive line a paltry “D” in his report card.

The last month though has certainly changed things.

In that loss to Pittsburgh, the Rams lost RT Rob Havenstein and C Brian Allen to injury forcing yet another change after having lost LG Joseph Noteboom to injury back in Week 6 against the San Francisco 49ers.

The Rams’ only starter from Week 1 still in place is LT Andrew Whitworth. OL Austin Blythe moved from right guard to center to replace Allen. Rookie OL David Edwards switched from left guard over to the right side with Austin Corbett, acquired via trade, coming in at left guard. Rookie Bobby Evans who was absolutely miserable in the preseason got the nod at right tackle.

Facing the Chicago Bears and EDGE Khalil Mack, Rams fans were extremely concerned heading into Week 11.But the line held firm. And has ever since.

Consider using our game report cards as a simple metric.
Our grades from Week 1-10 (no grade for Week 9 bye): C, C+, C, D-, B-, F, B, A+/C+, D
Grades from Week 10-14: A, F, B, A

Sure, that F against the Baltimore Ravens stands out in the second group. But that’s the point. What became a cudgel for Jared Goff protectionists and non-Goff stans alike became a non-excuse. The Rams’ line wasn’t holding the offense back.

And now the Rams are in a peculiar space. The plan they had for the line, and some key members of it, failed. Plan B has worked spectacularly. And between the return of Havenstein and the decisions looming after the season, the Rams will have to confront the consequences of that schism.

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

The Rams are afforded the first of many reckonings on the consequences of how the decisions on the line have played out in the form of Havenstein’s return which may be as early as this week. It’s a difficult decision on its own and carries even more weight for the potential precedent it might insinuate moving forward.

The crux of the decision boils down to this. Should the Rams ride the hot hand in the line as it stands with Evans at right tackle or returned to their presumed RT1 who signed a contract extension last August that keeps him a Ram through 2022?

There are obvious and supportable arguments for both. Those who would keep things as is simply need point at the last four performances and those that preceded them. Blythe’s existence on the line itself is largely due to a two-game audition he had to begin 2018 in place of OL Jamon Brown that went well enough that the Rams opted to roll with Blythe. The results were, overall, fantastic.

On the other hand, Jamon Brown isn’t Rob Havenstein. After three seasons, the Rams rewarded Hav handsomely and saw him perhaps put in the best season of his career last year. He’s been a very good right tackle in the NFL (hence the extension) despite his struggles in 2019. Might he deserve his job back just like LB Mark Barron last year who missed the first four games while ILB Ramik Wilson filled in? There was certainly nothing broken with the inside linebacking group in 2018, but Barron was handed his job back in Week 5 without argument.

For those who dismiss that kind of decision, I’d offer another to consider in the form of S John Johnson III. The 2019 defense has been spectacular and the safety grouping of S Eric Weddle, S Taylor Rapp and S Marqui Christian have certainly been a central part of that. Weddle’s a cap casualty candidate, and Christian is schedule to be an undrafted free agent. But should the Rams keep the band together if they continue to crank out the hits? Isn’t that the exact argument for keeping Evans in the starting rotation?

Making things more difficult is the same decision paradigm applied to the returning members of the line in the offseason.

Noteboom and Allen will both get healthy in the offseason. As we get into organized team activities and then head toward training camp and the preseason next year, we’re going to get the Rams’ early 2019 starters back. Should they get their jobs back?

I’m not advocating for one decision or the other, nor am I suggesting that we should have blanket applications of the logic irrespective of position, performance or any of the other complicating factors at work.

But we should be able to acknowledge that and recognize that getting these decisions right will be crucial to the Rams’ stretch run this season and to improving the offense in 2020 and beyond. The Rams’ early season struggles only reinforce that.

There’s also another aspect though that has changed the outputs on the line that are impossible to nail down the magnitude of as much because of the personnel changes. And assuming this aspect is in place next year, that will also be as crucial a part of the decision as the player selections themselves.

The Kromer Effect
Before the season started, I had an offensive line performance regression as my third most glaring concern. Part of the reason was the return of 60% of the five-man starting unit, but part of it also was a faith in Offensive Line Coach/Run Game Coordinator/Co-Offensive Coordinator Aaron Kromer.

He had clearly earned that kind of praise given what he had done in his first two years on the Rams’ coaching staff under Head Coach Sean McVay. He worked with the 2017 line and helped ensure their contributions to the 2017 offensive turnaround. And a year later, he helped guide the Rams to the single best season for a Rams offensive line in my memory. Yes, the health of those two lines were paramount. But we’ve seen healthy Rams lines underperform. Health alone wasn’t the reason for the Rams’ success on the O-line.

So I had faith that even if the Rams’ new-look line struggled, and it did, Kromer could help figure it out. And he has. Albeit with numerous and significant personnel changes.

Which begs the question. What if the Rams hadn’t lost Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein to injury? What if Kromer had been able to iron things out with that group? Consider Whitworth.

Long the bedrock of the line who helped pioneer the turnaround, Whitworth was a symbol of the 2019 line’s regression along with Havenstein. Veterans who were obviously talented enough and (and certainly in Big Whit’s case...) experienced enough to perform better...well, weren’t. Hav was as much a part of the struggles of the early 2019 line as anyone:

#LARams Andrew Whitworth's Pass Blocking has really bounced back in recent weeks, following an uncharacteristically slow start to the season

Pass Blocking Grades and OL Rank (min. 350 snaps):

First 6 Games - 74.4 (34th)
Last 7 Games - 88.2 (T-4th) pic.twitter.com/VqwmLCGoyO
— PFF LA Rams (@PFF_Rams) December 10, 2019

Whit, like the line as a whole, has ironed it out. Which is a case for the youngsters in Noteboom and Allen and, more immediately, Hav who is hardly afforded the protection of a rookie or redshirt second-year greenhorns like Noteboom and Allen. If Whit for all his talent and wisdom and character could have a rough go of it early and straighten it out, why not Noteboom and Allen?

And why wouldn’t Kromer have earned the benefit of the doubt to have been able to oversee that effort successfully?

Personnel & position outlook
The Rams only have Havenstein’s return to shake things up in the immediate future. Beyond that, they have significant decisions to make. The Rams have nine offensive linemen under contract next year who have taken snaps on the line this year. They have two more in Whitworth and Blythe whose contracts end in three months’ time.

Here’s the individual and collective outlook moving forward:

LT Andrew Whitworth
This is likely his swan song. He’s in Year 14 and about to turn 38-years old...tomorrow. Honestly, he’s earned retirement. But his departure creates perhaps the most important unanswered question moving forward...

Who is the left tackle protecting franchise QB Jared Goff in 2020?
RT Rob Havenstein
The other bookend, Havenstein was a strongpoint until 2019. He, like Whit, didn’t have a great early go prior to his injury.

As we discussed on the last episode of Turf Show Radio and to be covered in an upcoming discussion from Sosa, Havenstein might find himself on the outside looking in despite the recent extension. Could that invite inspections into the trade market? Or does he get back into the mix and re-establish himself? Or does he offer a position switch for Kromer as he remakes the line for 2020?

OL Austin Blythe
Blythe is a free agent after 2019. He swapped in for Brown early in 2018 and hasn’t looked back despite a position switch from right guard to center. Is he in the plans for the future O-line build? How much of that is down to his play over these next three games?

OT Bobby Evans/OL David Edwards
Both were midseason inclusions. Both have contributed to the turnaround. Both will face challenges for their spots in 2020.

OL Joseph Noteboom/C Brian Allen
Both were redshirted as freshmen in 2018. Neither was clean enough in 2019 to warrant automatic inclusion in 2020. How does the staff parse their return?

OL Austin Corbett
Maybe the most surprising story of the Rams’ 2019 construction, here’s a castaway from the Cleveland Browns who arrived only to be relegated to the non-playing depth chart before finding himself firmly in the action. How does he factor in beyond 2019? Does it depend on these next three performances?

OL Jamil Demby/OL Chandler Brewer
Both have seen time this year, but both are at the back of the O-line depth. They’re going to have to fend off any potential newcomers next year.


View: https://twitter.com/PFF_Rams/status/1204466592337166336/photo/1

 

[OldSchool]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/LindseyThiry/status/1204880390978260993

 

[So Ram]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/LindseyThiry/status/1204880390978260993

I don’t see him starting over Bobby Evans & messing with team chemistry!!
Does this change the team roster at all, or the 48 ?

 

[bubbaramfan]

Evans will start, but I bet Havenstien gets snaps. He's going to play.

 

[OldSchool]

I don’t see him starting over Bobby Evans & messing with team chemistry!!
Does this change the team roster at all, or the 48 ?

No he’s on the active roster the only change would be somebody else inactive on game day.

 

[TexasRam]

Whitworth's rating increase Coincides with Mcvay getting back to the heavy use of the rollouts and bootlegs that heavily slows down Defenders.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Hard to count on someone with an ACL + MCL tear after an absolutely horrendous season.

It was a horrendous season as a Guard.
The man is a Tackle.
They didn't play him in the preseason and threw him into the fire against seasoned professional defensive tackles.
And he was playing next to a Center who also had zero starts.

No way in hell I would discount the man's potential ability to be our starting left tackle based on his performance this year as a guard.

And I think our team physician will have a better idea of what his knee looks like by the time the draft rolls around.

If you kept the rest of the line intact as it is, by re-signing Blythe, it would allow Noteboom to concentrate on what is probably his natural, and possibly his premiere, position.

They should know by the end of Camp if Noteboom is the man.

If not then you have to consider Evans or Edwards at LT and reshuffling the line.

 

[MachS]

It was a horrendous season as a Guard.
The man is a Tackle.
They didn't play him in the preseason and threw him into the fire against seasoned professional defensive tackles.
And he was playing next to a Center who also had zero starts.

They should know by the end of Camp if Noteboom is the man.

If not then you have to consider Evans or Edwards at LT and reshuffling the line.

Thrown into the fire?? He wasnt a rookie, he was a 2nd year pro who was a 3rd round pick being groomed and cross-trained for 18 months!! He sat for an entire season while we went to the super bowl and he learned from pro bowl veterans. Then he had an ENTIRE off-season to get ready to compete at an NFL level. But he was never competitive, he was a total turnstile. IMO players that have NFL talent can affect the game and flash at times, even if their overall play is sub-par. He never affected any game in a positive way. Look how much of an impact both our rookies have made this year in only a few games. Both have flashed in big ways already and were later draft picks than Noteboom.

You know who was thrown into the fire? Evans and Edwards... and both appear to be better players, and as rookies have shown more versatility and talent in 5 games than Noteboom did in 18 months. Now throw in a bad ACL+MCL tear. Lineman dont recover like skill players or better athletes do. Especially when the injury is to their lower body where the main part of their job requires moving their feet to anchor. Like I said, I think he's closer to bust than starting LT by a long shot. My bet is him being a full time backup next year.

 

[Riverumbbq]

My way too early 2020 starting OL prediction :

Trade Havenstein for a 3'rd round pick which is then used on OT Lucas Niang.

LT) Whitworth, Niang, (Noteboom)
LG) Edwards, Corbett, Trewyn
C) Corbett, Allen, Trewyn
RG) Brewer, Trewyn, Edwards
RT) Evans, Brewer, (Noteboom)

Noteboom is the 9'th man on the OL who will return mid-season from injury to battle for the swing OT position, then fight with Niang over the starting LT role for the 2021 season following the departure of Whitworth to retirement.

jmo.

 

[1maGoh]

It was a horrendous season as a Guard.
The man is a Tackle.
They didn't play him in the preseason and threw him into the fire against seasoned professional defensive tackles.
And he was playing next to a Center who also had zero starts.

No way in hell I would discount the man's potential ability to be our starting left tackle based on his performance this year as a guard.

And I think our team physician will have a better idea of what his knee looks like by the time the draft rolls around.

If you kept the rest of the line intact as it is, by re-signing Blythe, it would allow Noteboom to concentrate on what is probably his natural, and possibly his premiere, position.

They should know by the end of Camp if Noteboom is the man.

If not then you have to consider Evans or Edwards at LT and reshuffling the line.

This might be a weird thought, but I wonder how much paying across from Aaron Donald might have stunted his growth as a lineman. Think about it. If you get beat by Brockers, you say damn and work on your technique. If you get beat by Gaines, you say WTF and work on your technique. If you get beat by Donald, you say yup and pray for reps against someone who isn't an generically engineered alien cyborg space deity (like Donald) because who knows what the hell your speed to work on. He'll beat you no matter what.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Thrown into the fire?? He wasnt a rookie, he was a 2nd year pro who was a 3rd round pick being groomed and cross-trained for 18 months!! He sat for an entire season while we went to the super bowl and he learned from pro bowl veterans. Then he had an ENTIRE off-season to get ready to compete at an NFL level. But he was never competitive, he was a total turnstile. IMO players that have NFL talent can affect the game and flash at times, even if their overall play is sub-par. He never affected any game in a positive way. Look how much of an impact both our rookies have made this year in only a few games. Both have flashed in big ways already and were later draft picks than Noteboom.

You know who was thrown into the fire? Evans and Edwards... and both appear to be better players, and as rookies have shown more versatility and talent in 5 games than Noteboom did in 18 months. Now throw in a bad ACL+MCL tear. Lineman dont recover like skill players or better athletes do. Especially when the injury is to their lower body where the main part of their job requires moving their feet to anchor. Like I said, I think he's closer to bust than starting LT by a long shot. My bet is him being a full time backup next year.

Thrown in the fire;
0 starts.
0 preseason play.
0 experience as a Guard.
Playing next to a guy who had 0 starts.
Playing next to a guy who had 0 preseason play.

That's not an ideal situation.
I think he will have more success at his true position of tackle.

There's no argument that Evans and Edwards have outperformed Noteboom but that really has nothing to do with anything other than to prove that all players develop a different rate.
And I never said he was any kind of surefire starter left tackle, just that he has a chance to be better at tackle than he was at guard.

 

[Adi]

He did not pass protect well this year. He can sit and watch Evan's who has been the better player .
Let them compete in the off season, or move Rob inside where I think he would help alot

 

[BonifayRam]

Thrown in the fire;
0 starts.
0 preseason play.
0 experience as a Guard.
Playing next to a guy who had 0 starts.
Playing next to a guy who had 0 preseason play.

That's not an ideal situation.
I think he will have more success at his true position of tackle.

There's no argument that Evans and Edwards have outperformed Noteboom but that really has nothing to do with anything other than to prove that all players develop a different rate.
And I never said he was any kind of surefire starter left tackle, just that he has a chance to be better at tackle than he was at guard.

Subject: 2nd year OT Joseph Noteboom

Yes this is my inclination in this course of thought on Joseph Noteboom. Where I dissent on Soul Surfer thoughts here is ref. the "time table return to full health matter".

JN saw a lot of Training Camp & Pre season action @ LT & some RT in 2018. JN also saw most all the snaps for both Whitworth & Havenstein in regular season during practice times when both were absent. So Kromer/ Dickerson were fully aware of JN's areas of skill level both negative & positive.

JN played in every 19 NFL game as the main 6th OL swing reserve. A great deal of JN's snaps in 2018 came playing the exterior of the OL on special teams. However, JN also took many snaps for injury events later in games mostly @ LT but some @ RT none anywhere else. When JN was in the offense taking snaps next to all pro LG veteran Saffold JN was unflawed.

Snead has been preaching about drafting OT's (like Noteboom) & moving them to the interior since he was hired. So this 2019 season move would fall right into what the boss has been lecturing & doing. Obviously this interior movement with JN was NOT productive but it sure was on Rodger Saffold, Jamon Brown & David Edwards types.

I genuinely think that JN will be a very good starting LT once he is fully recovered. Rams have JN under his rookie contract until the end of 2021. This major injury following reconstructive surgery & prolonged rehabbing event will have robbed JN of most of his 2nd NFL season in 2019 plus....situation will certainly linger well into the 2020 off season OTA/TC & preseason times that are vital to the upcoming regular season. Where the health of that knee is a huge concern. Good chance JN will likely miss the first half of the 2020 season too.

The main issue facing this offense now & well into next season is who of this current OL cadre who have a Ram contract can be the best pair of starting OT to protect Goff for the 2020 season. Joseph Noteboom is NOT involved heavily in this issue.

The two leading OT 2020 prospects under consideration are Havenstein & Evans with Chandler Brewer looking to be the considered top swing OT. None of these 3 OT's have shown many abilities @ the LT post yet in regular season action.

Havenstein certainly is not a prospect to be a starting LT with his below outcomes with speed quick pass rushers. That really leaves just Evans & Brewer. The next 3 games of this 2019 season might give us a look into just what Snead/ McVay & Kromer will do when this season concludes.

Rob Havenstien if healthy should be given an opportunity to see if he can rescue his Rams career @ RT thus saving his future Ram $$$ contract in getting some snaps with this offense from this point on @ RT post.

 

[RamWoodie]

I like the rule "a starter doesn't lose his job to injury". The limitations on that would be like when Prescott replaced Romo. Prescott had practically played the whole season. He deserved to start.

If this weeks practice shows Hav to be 100...you start him if hes not, he's backup. If he's having trouble in pass protection it only takes a word to move Evan's back in there.

I don't know what Hav's problem has been. In my view he has been slow off the snap getting out of his stance.

I know he's seen how Evan's has done...and maybe that's the push he needed. Who knows? Any how if he ain't cutting it...yank him...but he should start as I see it.

To keep hearing these exaggerations like "Hav has been awful, or garbage" are over the top. He hasn't played to his normal level...and it's on him to change that or lose his job...and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[BonifayRam]

Random Ramsdom 12/12: Havenstein returns as Rams head to Texas

The latest links regarding the defending NFC champions, your LA Rams.

www.turfshowtimes.com

Random Ramsdom 12/12: Havenstein returns as Rams head to Texas

Havenstein is back, but maybe not as a starter | Rams Wire

One of the intriguing narratives that has popped up regarding the LA Rams is the offensive line play and the regression of RT Rob Havenstein. What should the Rams do about their star O-lineman? Trade him?

While nursing a knee injury the past couple of weeks, rookie OL Bobby Evans has stepped in and played impressively. So, now what?

It’s going to be something to keep on eye on because Havenstein has a 32.5 million dollar contract with the Rams, so it wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense to keep him on the sidelines. Except for the fact that he’s been playing like a guy who belongs on the sidelines...............................

 

[Soul Surfer]

Of course, like everybody, I have zero idea of what Noteboom's rehab timetable is, just that they should know something by draft time.

They should also have an idea if they want to go with Havenstein back at right tackle and swing Evans to left tackle.

Havenstein is the Rams player I am most disappointed in because nothing really changed for him, other than he got a huge contract, because he was still playing next to Blythe as he did most of the last year.