Did the Seahawks and 49ers burn themselves trying to be like Les?

[Kupped]

Seattle? Maybe? I think more than copying, they were desperate to keep up?
9ers? Not at all. They’re doing their thing,

 

[AvengerRam]

1. Belittle poster to make your post seem better. Check.
2. Dismiss there opinion. check
3. Belittle him for repackaging what you repackaged even though he was just giving his opinion. check

Well done!!!!! We aren't a jury, so save your lawyer shit for the court room please. This is a Rams forum , no need to degrade others who arent attacking you but posting there opinion. Just my opinion, degrade me how you want now

I have no problem with someone expressing an opposing opinion.

When someone misrepresents the content of a post (i.e. I never claimed Les did anything unique, unprecedented or “patented”) then disagrees with the strawman he created, that’s just, well...obnoxious.

If you don’t get the difference...oh, well.

 

[AvengerRam]

Seattle? Maybe? I think more than copying, they were desperate to keep up?
9ers? Not at all. They’re doing their thing,

Perhaps, though I do think that the acquisition of Stafford by the Rams (along with Rodgers and Watson ultimately being unavailable) may have pushed the Niners to make a bold move at the QB spot.

 

[FrantikRam]

I definitely prefer Les.

However, Seattle was the first to do this. They traded a first round pick for Percy Harvin, and while that trade was bad in a vacuum, dude scored two TDs in a Super Bowl win. We've yet to see those results yet, and I say that as someone who loves how we operate.

 

[Kupped]

Perhaps, though I do think that the acquisition of Stafford by the Rams (along with Rodgers and Watson ultimately being unavailable) may have pushed the Niners to make a bold move at the QB spot.

I don’t.
I think Jimmy Gs mediocrity and constant injuries drove that.

I think Tom Brady had as much to do with their choice as anything else.

But, the big driver? Saving cap $$ at the position for a few years. Maximize rest of roster.

 

[Steve808]

Les Snead spends first round draft picks like a Vegas gambler buys drinks for the room during a hot streak.

You can do that when it works.

For example, is anyone complaining about the trade that brought us Jalen Ramsey? I know I'm not. His impact from week to week is huge.

And now, Les spent another two first rounders to bring Matthew Stafford to the Rams. Again... anyone regret that one? I know I don't.

Imitation, is, of course, the sincerest form of flattery, but sometimes its pale. That certainly seems to be the case with the Seahawks pulling a "Les" by trading away two first round picks to bring Jamal Adams to their defense. How's that working out? (Seahawks were 31st in pass defense last year, and are 30th this year). Adams is a talented player, but he's no Ramsey, that's for sure.

Then, this past offseason, the 49ers traded two first round picks to move up to select Trey Lance. Now... some may assert that its way too soon to judge that one but, to be honest, looking at Lance's college career and how he's looked in a 49ers uniform, well... I just don't see it. Certainly, he's not likely to have the kind of impact that Stafford is having any time soon.

So, maybe the message is... don't try to outLes Les.

Agreed. But part of that success has been finding incredible value in later round picks.

I'd argue that Cooper Kupp was a 1st rounder in the 3rd round. Same could be said of John Johnson. And wow, the 6th round has produced gems as well.

But sometimes I wonder if some of these players are that good or are they just a perfect fit for McVay's game plans? I say that because we have some really good players that left and became flops outside of the Rams system.

IMO, I would have been all in with the Stafford Trade if we hadn't given up a King's ransom to get Goff. And the fact that Stafford is older. Of course all will be forgiven if we win the Lombardi with Stafford.

 

[oldnotdead]

Justin Herbert was the #6 pick in 2020 and the Bengals and Dolphins are kicking themselves at passing on him. Herbert is the exception not the rule. The Chargers have their franchise QB for years to come. He can be even better than Philip Rivers. I'm glad he's in the AFC.

Lance has all the tools to become a pretty damn good QB if he's given time to develop under good coaching. I said when he was picked up by the Niners, that the Rams had a three year window to establish themselves atop the NFCW. I said then and say now, that Lance will make the Niners a very competitive team in three years if they can keep a solid team around him on both sides of the ball. Rushing his development is counter productive. He isn't a Herbert who has been plug n play in the NFL.

There is a good chance Wilson will change teams next year and I think the rumors about his going to Pittsburgh are real. If he does leave that really will change the dynamics of the NFCW with the Rams the clear winner over the long term.

Murray looks good now but IMO a running QB has a limited shelf life. Football injuries at the NFL level tend to be cumalative over their careers. His performance in that type of offense isn't sustainable. Sooner or later that offense will stall. The Chiefs are a good example of that. Mahomes is having problems holding their bandaids in place.

Only the Rams are built to continually renew themselves as Snead is now drafting 2 years in advance, giving his coaches the luxury of developing the talent. The only problem the Rams have is Morris and whether or not he's willing to adapt himself to the reality of the type of players he has.

Look at how aggressive Staley is playing the Chargers. He went for a 4th and 5 on his own 24 early in the game and they converted. He's publicly said he's going to play the percentages and use all 4 downs if the opposition gives him what he wants on 4th down. That's the level of aggressiveness that he played his Ram defense and why they were #1. Staley not only put his players in a scheme for them to play shutdown defense, but also to turn the ball over. INTs and forced fumbles were all part of his coaching style. Morris is too scared to play that stye even when he has a proven scheme and the players to make it work.

As Seattle and SF are finding out that coaching is perhaps the biggest difference maker in the NFL. Top picks and elite players mean nothing if they aren't played in a scheme that fits their talent, in a manner that allows them to be difference makers. It's why Wilson demanded changes this year and why Shanny needs to hold Lance back until he's truly ready. With Jimmy G's injury history it was stupid to let Rosen go.

It's why with Stafford it's clear that McVay wants him to ignore an open short to medium receiver if he's got a one on one matchup deep. McVay is totally commited to a deep strike offense and that's the change Stafford is having to make in his own reads. So far it's working as the Rams scoring drives have all been 70 yards plus. This is why probably after the bye week we might start seeing more of Harris at TE or any of the WR spots. There is no question in my mind that a deep strike offense is the direction McVay is commited to. That in turn will put a lot of pressure on the defense. They need another DC in the Staley mold in terms of aggressiveness. Morris to this point clearly isn't on that level.

I said it before and will keep saying it. John Pagano plays his defense with that aggressive attacking style. It's the same defense his brother installed in Baltimore and which they are still playing. The Rams have the perfect roster for that style of play.

 

[NJRamsFan]

1. Overstate/misstate point being made.
2. Dismiss overstated/misstated version of original point.
3. Repackage point as a “new point” that doesn’t really contradict the original point.

Well done!

Get sad someone doesn’t agree with you and lash out!

Well done!

 

[AvengerRam]

Get sad someone doesn’t agree with you and lash out!

Well done!

You didn’t disagree with me. You disagreed with your straw man.

But I’ll give you credit…at least you didn’t respond with an irrelevant treatise like OldNotPayingAttentionToTheTopic.

 

[NJRamsFan]

You didn’t disagree with me. You disagreed with your straw man.

But I’ll give you credit…at least you didn’t respond with an irrelevant treatise like OldNotPayingAttentionToTheTopic.

Actually I disagreed with the premise that singular occurrences of trading up for a QB or trading first round picks for a young pro bowler are indicative of Les Snead imitation. They are far too common occurrences throughout the entire NFL over durations that pre date Les to say that those are even his actions to be imitated in the first place.

You’re saying I created a straw man because you didn’t say anything Les is doing is unique or patented? Well first lets state the obvious that I didn’t mean patented literally hows signature work? But if nothing Les is doing is unique….how in the hell is anyone “pulling a Les” or imitating HIM and not some other team? The reason I phrased it the way I did is because I believe what Les is doing is unique and that he’s ahead of his time but simply trading up in the draft for the chance to acquire a better qb is not the reason for that.

 

[AvengerRam]

Actually I disagreed with the premise that singular occurrences of trading up for a QB or trading first round picks for a young pro bowler are indicative of Les Snead imitation. They are far too common occurrences throughout the entire NFL over durations that pre date Les to say that those are even his actions to be imitated in the first place.

You’re saying I created a straw man because you didn’t say anything Les is doing is unique or patented? Well first lets state the obvious that I didn’t mean patented literally hows signature work? But if nothing Les is doing is unique….how in the hell is anyone “pulling a Les” or imitating HIM and not some other team? The reason I phrased it the way I did is because I believe what Les is doing is unique and that he’s ahead of his time but simply trading up in the draft for the chance to acquire a better qb is not the reason for that.

That’s fine. You certainly can assert that each of these moves is entirely independent of the others.

I see it differently. Trading two first round picks for a DB (Ramsey) was a bold and somewhat unusual move, but it worked. The Seahawks, shortly thereafter, made a similar move for another DB (Adams), which didn’t work so well.

The Rams then beat the 49ers to the punch and traded for Stafford. The 49ers (after presumably asking about Rodgers and considering Watson) sold the farm to move up to draft a small school QB who had played only 1 game since 2019.

I see a “keeping up with the Joneses” pattern in those recent moves. Others don’t. Certainly, the Hawks and Niners won’t admit it, so we’re all just speculating in the end.

 

[NJRamsFan]

I see it differently. Trading two first round picks for a DB (Ramsey) was a bold and somewhat unusual move, but it worked. The Seahawks, shortly thereafter, made a similar move for another DB (Adams), which didn’t work so well.

Frankly I can’t even remember a sure fire lockdown CB coming available at that age with no real red flags in Ramsey. Adam’s was another product of availability IMO and more reactionary on Seattle’s behalf because again you don’t expect young pro bowlers to be available and when they are, and you have the resources, and it’s a position of need you react. I don’t feel like the Seahawks saw the Ramsey move and it set in motion their own search for a DB…I think it’s slightly coincidental at best due to player availability.

The Rams then beat the 49ers to the punch and traded for Stafford. The 49ers (after presumably asking about Rodgers and considering Watson) sold the farm to move up to draft a small school QB who had played only 1 game since 2019.

Well yes but it seems like you are trying to tie these situations together. Both teams wanted to improve their QB position( like most of the NFL) One succeeded in trading for a vet the other didn’t and had to use the draft.

I see a “keeping up with the Joneses” pattern in those recent moves. Others don’t. Certainly, the Hawks and Niners won’t admit it, so we’re all just speculating in the end.

This is where I agree, there is certainly keeping up with the joneses going on and thats because there are 4 teams who feel they can win it and if one team gets better they need to keep up. Where I disagree is when you start phrasing it as “pulling a Les” or imitation. To me there is an implication there that the other teams are trying to be like Les and copy his tactics not just trying to improve their roster to win the division. I just don’t see the aforementioned moves as imitation in that regard.

 

[Tano]

Justin Herbert was the #6 pick in 2020 and the Bengals and Dolphins are kicking themselves at passing on him. Herbert is the exception not the rule. The Chargers have their franchise QB for years to come. He can be even better than Philip Rivers. I'm glad he's in the AFC.

Lance has all the tools to become a pretty damn good QB if he's given time to develop under good coaching. I said when he was picked up by the Niners, that the Rams had a three year window to establish themselves atop the NFCW. I said then and say now, that Lance will make the Niners a very competitive team in three years if they can keep a solid team around him on both sides of the ball. Rushing his development is counter productive. He isn't a Herbert who has been plug n play in the NFL.

There is a good chance Wilson will change teams next year and I think the rumors about his going to Pittsburgh are real. If he does leave that really will change the dynamics of the NFCW with the Rams the clear winner over the long term.

Murray looks good now but IMO a running QB has a limited shelf life. Football injuries at the NFL level tend to be cumalative over their careers. His performance in that type of offense isn't sustainable. Sooner or later that offense will stall. The Chiefs are a good example of that. Mahomes is having problems holding their bandaids in place.

Only the Rams are built to continually renew themselves as Snead is now drafting 2 years in advance, giving his coaches the luxury of developing the talent. The only problem the Rams have is Morris and whether or not he's willing to adapt himself to the reality of the type of players he has.

Look at how aggressive Staley is playing the Chargers. He went for a 4th and 5 on his own 24 early in the game and they converted. He's publicly said he's going to play the percentages and use all 4 downs if the opposition gives him what he wants on 4th down. That's the level of aggressiveness that he played his Ram defense and why they were #1. Staley not only put his players in a scheme for them to play shutdown defense, but also to turn the ball over. INTs and forced fumbles were all part of his coaching style. Morris is too scared to play that stye even when he has a proven scheme and the players to make it work.

As Seattle and SF are finding out that coaching is perhaps the biggest difference maker in the NFL. Top picks and elite players mean nothing if they aren't played in a scheme that fits their talent, in a manner that allows them to be difference makers. It's why Wilson demanded changes this year and why Shanny needs to hold Lance back until he's truly ready. With Jimmy G's injury history it was stupid to let Rosen go.

It's why with Stafford it's clear that McVay wants him to ignore an open short to medium receiver if he's got a one on one matchup deep. McVay is totally commited to a deep strike offense and that's the change Stafford is having to make in his own reads. So far it's working as the Rams scoring drives have all been 70 yards plus. This is why probably after the bye week we might start seeing more of Harris at TE or any of the WR spots. There is no question in my mind that a deep strike offense is the direction McVay is commited to. That in turn will put a lot of pressure on the defense. They need another DC in the Staley mold in terms of aggressiveness. Morris to this point clearly isn't on that level.

I said it before and will keep saying it. John Pagano plays his defense with that aggressive attacking style. It's the same defense his brother installed in Baltimore and which they are still playing. The Rams have the perfect roster for that style of play.

I watched a little bit of the Arizona SF game and the one thing that stood out to me about Lance and why I have misgivings about him is that they ran him right up the gut.

He is not big enough to take that type of pounding on a weekly basis.

I am still worried about Josh Allen with all his up the gut runs because all it takes is one bad hit and he is out for the season or will hurt his throwing arm. But he definitely has a much bigger build so he can take more punishment than most QBs.

 

[Kupped]

Frankly I can’t even remember a sure fire lockdown CB coming available at that age with no real red flags in Ramsey. Adam’s was another product of availability IMO and more reactionary on Seattle’s behalf because again you don’t expect young pro bowlers to be available and when they are, and you have the resources, and it’s a position of need you react. I don’t feel like the Seahawks saw the Ramsey move and it set in motion their own search for a DB…I think it’s slightly coincidental at best due to player availability.


Well yes but it seems like you are trying to tie these situations together. Both teams wanted to improve their QB position( like most of the NFL) One succeeded in trading for a vet the other didn’t and had to use the draft.


This is where I agree, there is certainly keeping up with the joneses going on and thats because there are 4 teams who feel they can win it and if one team gets better they need to keep up. Where I disagree is when you start phrasing it as “pulling a Les” or imitation. To me there is an implication there that the other teams are trying to be like Les and copy his tactics not just trying to improve their roster to win the division. I just don’t see the aforementioned moves as imitation in that regard.

There's a much easier "Seahawks trying to copy Seahawks" thread to pull when it comes to Adams. The Legion of Boom had dominant safeties and Carroll looked at Adams as a player who could replicate that. Whoops.
Again.. nothing to do with the Rams.

I don't know how much the 9ers really explored adding a veteran QB. Seems to me they were and are much more interested in the salary cap benefits of a first contract QB than in acquiring a veteran. They have a pretty good roster with players they need to pay and that would be a great place for them to save money. It's using draft picks to amplify your cap space as opposed to shrinking it.

Keeping up with the Joneses? Yup. Just like the Rams were when they traded for Stafford.. they knew they couldn't keep up with the other QBs in the NFC West.

 

[AvengerRam]

I don't know how much the 9ers really explored adding a veteran QB. Seems to me they were and are much more interested in the salary cap benefits of a first contract QB than in acquiring a veteran. They have a pretty good roster with players they need to pay and that would be a great place for them to save money. It's using draft picks to amplify your cap space as opposed to shrinking it.

Shanahan when he heard about the Rams' trade for Stafford (From PFT)

“That was frustrating,” Shanahan said. “Everyone was telling me it was a possibility, and Stafford is the man. I studied him hard coming out of college, and we played against him so we know how good he is.”

And this, regarding their interest in Rodgers:

View: https://twitter.com/Bill_Michaels/status/1387781771551465475

And I'm hardly the only one that speculated that they might try to get in on Watson if he became available.

That does not sound to me like Plan A at QB involved saving cap space by going with a rookie (they, of course, are still paying JimmyG nearly $30M this year and he has a big number next year if he's not cut or traded).

 

[Kupped]

Shanahan when he heard about the Rams' trade for Stafford (From PFT)


And this, regarding their interest in Rodgers:

View: https://twitter.com/Bill_Michaels/status/1387781771551465475

And I'm hardly the only one that speculated that they might try to get in on Watson if he became available.

That does not sound to me like Plan A at QB involved saving cap space by going with a rookie (they, of course, are still paying JimmyG nearly $30M this year and he has a big number next year if he's not cut or traded).

It looks to me like they weren’t interested enough.

They could’ve had Brady.. and passed on that.

And, if they were “following” the Rams.. why would they have already been interested in Stafford?

I’m just going back to the original premise.

Keeping up with the Joneses? Sure.
Copying the Rams?

Nope.

 

[AvengerRam]

It looks to me like they weren’t interested enough.

They could’ve had Brady.. and passed on that.

And, if they were “following” the Rams.. why would they have already been interested in Stafford?

I’m just going back to the original premise.

Keeping up with the Joneses? Sure.
Copying the Rams?

Nope.

1. I think its the Packers that were not interested.
2. I don't really know what you're asking about the 49ers interest in Stafford. Clearly, had the Rams not made that trade, Shanahan would have tried to get him. By the time Shanahan knew it was a possibility, the Rams had already made the deal.
3. The "Joneses" in this case, are the Rams, so...

 

[majrleaged]

The uniqueness of Les is not singularly trading first round picks in isolated incidents that's been done forever. It's trading his first round picks like they have no value and still maintaining a playoff team with no signs of slowing. He went "all in" according to many countless times yet it is not catching up to him....THAT is the unique part. Were the bears copying Les when they got Mack ? no...they were just conducting normal NFL business that has been occurring since before I was born. Same with the Seachickens and 9ers....unless they continue to do it of course.

And I hear what you're saying obviously they haven't succeeded so let me make myself clear. The fact that they haven't succeeded is not my objection....I think they haven't even entered the arena that is Les Snead.

Another trait to how the Rams do business differently is, how quickly they cut bait on recently signed large contracts. It started with Olgeltree and has become almost a signature move. Most teams can't do that because the owner lays out a lot of out of pocket cash with those bonuses and they won't allow it. It seems Snead has an unlimited budget. It kinda helps cover up some huge mistakes.
A number of posters here have made statements voicing concern over the huge and long contract the Rams have doled out. Gurley, Cooks, etc and they would be right with other teams. But our Rams are playing under different rules. Lucky us.

 

[Kupped]

1. I think its the Packers that were not interested.
2. I don't really know what you're asking about the 49ers interest in Stafford. Clearly, had the Rams not made that trade, Shanahan would have tried to get him. By the time Shanahan knew it was a possibility, the Rams had already made the deal.
3. The "Joneses" in this case, are the Rams, so...

You’re wrong about Stafford’s availability and the 9ers interest.
The 9ers weren’t willing to spend what it took.

Report: 49ers never made official offer for Matthew Stafford

Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer reported the San Francisco 49ers’ involvement in the Matthew Stafford trade was minimal.

www.google.com

 

[Kupped]

1. I think its the Packers that were not interested.
2. I don't really know what you're asking about the 49ers interest in Stafford. Clearly, had the Rams not made that trade, Shanahan would have tried to get him. By the time Shanahan knew it was a possibility, the Rams had already made the deal.
3. The "Joneses" in this case, are the Rams, so...

The response to the “Joneses” here is weird and smug.

The Rams were “keeping up with the Jonses” by trading for Stafford. Clearly, QB was a weak spot relative to the NFC West.

And, for the 9ers… “the Joneses” are properly named Wilson, Murray and Stafford.