Covid 19 thread

[Ramhusker]

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"Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone."

Again, this is just one study of MANY. This is the whole freaking point... even MORE studies were STOPPED because it was determined too many damn people were dying from this drug. Cripes.

I'll concede there are some studies which show some promising results, but y'all need to concede that there are many studies which show HCQ ineffectiveness AND many studies which imply HCQ has killed people. Yes, killed people.

Does the study say at what stage of infection it was administered? It appears it is much more effective if given early. And if it is KILLING people, how has it stayed in the market for going in 7 decades???? And I wonder what the body count is with HCQ vs a Vent?

 

[thirteen28]

As you yourself acknowledged, many people died WHILE taking HCQ. Many scientists around the world have concluded that there is a statistically significant probability that these people died FROM taking HCQ.

Citation?

 

[RamBall]

First, it didn't save 50%, where did you get that number? And second, nobody is saying that it's not okay to treat patients, clearly trials are being done and some patients are being treated with it with varying degrees of success. That is what trials are for. My point is that you can't just jump to the end, say that it's good when we don't have nearly enough data, and that is even more important when there are major risks for it, and there is a significant amount of data suggesting that there is no benefit. These things are important, you can't rush science man.

Doctors are not sitting there crying out for Hydroxychloroquine and not being able to get it, their hospitals almost assuredly have supplies. They're not treating patients with it because they don't want to.

I think that may be a misunderstanding on some people's part as well. The FDA didn't ban the use of Hydroxychloroquine. They initially issued a statement saying to use it for emergency treatment, then as data came out pointing to no benefit, they revoked that statement. That's it. They told hospitals to wind down their use of it to not drain supply, but there's nothing stopping the individual doctor from using it if they wanted to. They just don't want to because they understand that the science is incomplete.

Nobody is gonna kick down the door and perp walk the doc for treating a patient who has Covid with Hydroxychloroquine.

50% was just an example, but even if its as low as 10%, all lives are worth saving. Pharmacists arent filling some prescriptions for HCQ which is why the Drs want something done. We know it is safe, cheap and effective so why are people so adamant that Drs should not have the ability to treat their patients with the best available treatment. Nobody is saying to ship bottles of HCQ to every household in America and force people to take it. But the anti HCQ people are saying that because a few Drs that have no experience using HCQ claim it is dangerous. Do you really think a Dr would prescribe HCQ to a patient if they thought it might harm them? I just dont understand the thinking that lives arent worth saving with the best available treatment. The only argument against HCQ is its safety, but if it wasnt safe why has it been used for over 65 yrs? I know that I were sick enough with covid to require medical treatment and HCQ was an option I would have no problem taking it. There have been times when my vehicle or a family members vehcle has broke down on the side of the road and I had to make due with the tools I had in my tool bag to make the repairs needed to get the vehicle back on the road. I didnt wait til I could get the right size wrench. I used a crescent wrench or pliers, because those were the best tools available in that moment. Knowing that either one could round off the bolt, but at the same time I need to get this thing fixed.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Citation?

You can construe this as a "dodge" if you want, but I simply do not have the time to go into the weeds like this.

Simply google "hydroxychloroquine deaths" and you'll find plenty more alarming studies other than the ones I have provided.

Tons and tons of medical folks (both doctors and researchers) have instead on CANCELLING future HCQ studies because of the fears of having patients KILLED from HCQ. Again, I don't have the time to post all the citations, you can look it up on your own if you wish.

 

[RamBall]

Maybe this is why Drs want to treat patients with HCQ. I know its not a double blind peer reviewed study, but it does appear to show some benefit of using HCQ

 

[OldSchool]

You're asking for "definitive" proof? Unfortunately science rarely provides 100% certainty. But it can often illuminate statistically significant probability.

Yet your own comments citing some doctors saying not to use it is proof it shouldn't be used. Hell even the WHO, who stopped it's studies into it for a while, have started testing again and haven't since come out against it. Doctors around the world are endorsing it's use. Are they all right? Don't know. Is the FDA right? Not sure but their record is far from great, enough to question them in things reasonably.

Hey even a network of physicians worldwide have a survey that shows they're using it in a variety of situations. Nobody is trying to say it's the end all be all cure for all our worries. But there is evidence and a lot of it that it has worked and helped people.

1/4 of doctors say HCPs should take hydroxychloroquine

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[OldSchool]

You can construe this as a "dodge" if you want, but I simply do not have the time to go into the weeds like this.

Simply google "hydroxychloroquine deaths" and you'll find plenty more alarming studies other than the ones I have provided.

Tons and tons of medical folks (both doctors and researchers) have instead on CANCELLING future HCQ studies because of the fears of having patients KILLED from HCQ. Again, I don't have the time to post all the citations, you can look it up on your own if you wish.

I did and the top 10 articles cite it's benefits of use, some state people with certain heart conditions shouldn't be given it and people receiving it as treatment need medical supervision. Both conditions should be pretty obvious.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Look, getting mighty laughable pumping science on this topic, all it’s done is fail miserably from day 1, hey but don’t let that interfere with agenda, and yes they still are all fucked up...is it droplets,is it hands to face...I vote the latter by 67/33 ratio, but it actually could even be something else

HCQ, you detractors really have a huge obstacle in your way, many, many Drs seem to think it helps slow down symptoms, don’t recall anyone mentioning it as a cure, as for the side effects, really? just now it’s become dangerous?

We all know where this points, tangodeltasierra Lol, no?

 

[thirteen28]

You can construe this as a "dodge" if you want, but I simply do not have the time to go into the weeds like this.

...

Simply google "hydroxychloroquine deaths" and you'll find plenty more alarming studies other than the ones I have provided.

I will definitely construe it as a dodge. You made the claim that doctors have assigned a statistically significant probability that HCQ killed some patients, and if it’s as easy to find on Google as you say, you should be able to find one. It shouldn’t require going deep into the weeds.

Meanwhile, the FDA who provides you your opinion this matter approved this drug 65 years ago. It’s widely prescribed not only for malaria prevention, but to lupus patients, lupus being an autoimmune disease. It has been administered to our military personnel overseas for malaria prevention, including widespread use in Vietnam. Yet no reports of it being deadly to lupus patients, military personnel, etc. But now it’s suddenly killing people in non-negligible percentages?

Ok.

 

[bluecoconuts]

50% was just an example, but even if its as low as 10%, all lives are worth saving. Pharmacists arent filling some prescriptions for HCQ which is why the Drs want something done. We know it is safe, cheap and effective so why are people so adamant that Drs should not have the ability to treat their patients with the best available treatment. Nobody is saying to ship bottles of HCQ to every household in America and force people to take it. But the anti HCQ people are saying that because a few Drs that have no experience using HCQ claim it is dangerous. Do you really think a Dr would prescribe HCQ to a patient if they thought it might harm them? I just dont understand the thinking that lives arent worth saving with the best available treatment. The only argument against HCQ is its safety, but if it wasnt safe why has it been used for over 65 yrs? I know that I were sick enough with covid to require medical treatment and HCQ was an option I would have no problem taking it. There have been times when my vehicle or a family members vehcle has broke down on the side of the road and I had to make due with the tools I had in my tool bag to make the repairs needed to get the vehicle back on the road. I didnt wait til I could get the right size wrench. I used a crescent wrench or pliers, because those were the best tools available in that moment. Knowing that either one could round off the bolt, but at the same time I need to get this thing fixed.

You would be able to take it, there would be absolutely nothing stopping you but your doctor.

The rest of this is just nonsense really, sorry to say. It’s just a total misunderstanding of medicine, just because a medicine is used in one application doesn’t mean that it is safe for every one.

Nobody has banned treatment, pharmacies can’t just just refuse legitimate prescriptions, they literally are not allowed to go against or change the doctors prescription, if that was happening, doctors wouldn’t be “speaking out” they would report the pharmacy to the medical board and get those pharmacists replace by those who will correctly fill out prescriptions. That’s ridiculous, you’re getting upset about a hypothetical that doesn’t even exist.

Literally nothing is stopping you from going to your doctor and requesting it. If they say no, feel free to ask and explain why. It’s not illegal, so they can do it. Maybe argue with your doctor, it’s their call man. That is legitimately the only thing between you and getting some. Have had it, let me know how it goes dude.

 

[RamBall]

You would be able to take it, there would be absolutely nothing stopping you but your doctor.

The rest of this is just nonsense really, sorry to say. It’s just a total misunderstanding of medicine, just because a medicine is used in one application doesn’t mean that it is safe for every one.

Nobody has banned treatment, pharmacies can’t just just refuse legitimate prescriptions, they literally are not allowed to go against or change the doctors prescription, if that was happening, doctors wouldn’t be “speaking out” they would report the pharmacy to the medical board and get those pharmacists replace by those who will correctly fill out prescriptions. That’s ridiculous, you’re getting upset about a hypothetical that doesn’t even exist.

Literally nothing is stopping you from going to your doctor and requesting it. If they say no, feel free to ask and explain why. It’s not illegal, so they can do it. Maybe argue with your doctor, it’s their call man. That is legitimately the only thing between you and getting some. Have had it, let me know how it goes dude.

If you saw the any of the videos that have been pulled down, several of the Drs have said that some pharmacies are refusing to fill prescriptions for HCQ. Not sure where you get this dangerous stuff from. If it were dangerous it would have been replaced at some point over the last 65 yrs.

 

[Kevin]

Maybe this is why Drs want to treat patients with HCQ. I know its not a double blind peer reviewed study, but it does appear to show some benefit of using HCQView attachment 37837

Fox News! LMAO!

 

[XXXIVwin]

I will definitely construe it as a dodge. You made the claim that doctors have assigned a statistically significant probability that HCQ killed some patients, and if it’s as easy to find on Google as you say, you should be able to find one. It shouldn’t require going deep into the weeds.

Meanwhile, the FDA who provides you your opinion this matter approved this drug 65 years ago. It’s widely prescribed not only for malaria prevention, but to lupus patients, lupus being an autoimmune disease. It has been administered to our military personnel overseas for malaria prevention, including widespread use in Vietnam. Yet no reports of it being deadly to lupus patients, military personnel, etc. But now it’s suddenly killing people in non-negligible percentages?

Ok.

For malaria and lupus, there is strong evidence that HCQ is helpful for patients who can tolerate it. But for Covid-19, the data is extremely weak (when taken as a whole) that HCQ is effective.

I'll just go ahead and concur with bluecoconuts on this one... if you want to take HCQ for Covid, you are free to do so. But please keep in mind the headline from the FDA's warning on July 1st:

FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems

FDA cautions use of hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine for COVID-19

Does not affect FDA-approved uses for malaria, lupus, and rheumatoid arthritis

www.fda.gov

The FDA has warned that the usage of HCQ "includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure."

Especially for ppl who have some pre-existing cardiovascular conditions (high blood pressure, diabetes, etc.), please be careful with HCQ. The heart rhythm issues seem to be the most glaring concern, and the complications can be lifelong.

Remdesivir and dexamethasone have both been shown to be effective and safe in the treatment of Covid-19. Serious concerns remain about both the effectiveness and the safety of HCQ. But yeah, as bluecoconuts says, if you wish to use it anyway, it is still legal to do so.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Yet your own comments citing some doctors saying not to use it is proof it shouldn't be used. Hell even the WHO, who stopped it's studies into it for a while, have started testing again and haven't since come out against it. Doctors around the world are endorsing it's use. Are they all right? Don't know. Is the FDA right? Not sure but their record is far from great, enough to question them in things reasonably.

Hey even a network of physicians worldwide have a survey that shows they're using it in a variety of situations. Nobody is trying to say it's the end all be all cure for all our worries. But there is evidence and a lot of it that it has worked and helped people.

1/4 of doctors say HCPs should take hydroxychloroquine

Explore all the exclusive physician insights, healthcare industry trends, and Sermo corporate news released over the years right here!

www.sermo.com

That article you linked was from April 17th. The medical literature on HCQ has completely changed since then.

 

[thirteen28]

I'll just go ahead and concur with bluecoconuts on this one... if you want to take HCQ, you are free to do so.

If I ever test positive, it's going to be the first thing I ask for.

Remdesivir and dexamethasone have both been shown to be effective and safe in the treatment of Covid-19. Serious concerns remain about both the effectiveness and the safety of HCQ. But yeah, as bluecoconuts says, if you wish to use it anyway, it is still legal to do so.

They're definitely more effective at making $$$ for Big Pharm than some cheap, out-of-patent drug that was approved by the same FDA you cite 65 years ago, the FDA that has no problem letting patients in the US take it for other reasons than it's original anti-malarial properties.

Nothing to see here, move along:

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[Dieter the Brock]

Everyone’s gonna look back on this thread in 8 years and shake their heads how they got it so fucking wrong.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Everyone’s gonna look back on this thread in 8 years and shake their heads how they got it so fucking wrong.

That's half true....

 

[thirteen28]

Everyone’s gonna look back on this thread in 8 years and shake their heads how they got it so fucking wrong.

Why do you think it will take that long?

 

[XXXIVwin]

If I ever test positive, it's going to be the first thing I ask for.



They're definitely more effective at making $$$ for Big Pharm than some cheap, out-of-patent drug that was approved by the same FDA you cite 65 years ago, the FDA that has no problem letting patients in the US take it for other reasons than it's original anti-malarial properties.

Nothing to see here, move along:

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Looks like a lot of those glowing reports are from February, March, and April, which is a lifetime ago in the study of HCQ.

For example, your link mentions the "great success" Italy was having with HCQ back on March 29. Only little problem? Italy completely reversed course and banned the use of HCQ two months later, citing safety concerns:

EU governments ban malaria drug for COVID-19, trial paused as safety fears grow

European governments moved on Wednesday to halt the use of anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 patients, and a second global trial was suspended, further blows to hopes for a treatment promoted by U.S. President Donald Trump.

www.reuters.com

And yeah, I'm inclined to trust more in doctors from Europe and the USA more than I'll trust doctors from Malaysia, Nigeria, Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, and Cuba.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Fox News! LMAO!

As opposed to what?

CNN
MSNBC?

lol, cable news is pretty much tainted, tho I must say FOX does tend to bash conservatives way more than those other two...over the top biased? Networks do liberals.

They all, at the end of the day serve a narrative, which sux for us, hence Fake News, on both sides.