Chicken or egg (QB vs Receiver)

[-X-]

At least we will have Quickie and Sted returning from the dead this TC.

Love 'em both. Not sold on either though. Freaking Rams should have listened to me in 2010. We'd have had a bridge QB, Cleveland's entire draft, and Dez Bryant. Once it became clear that we weren't dealing our pick, I was 100% in on Bradford. Now he's an Eagle and Dez is still where he started.

 

[jap]

Love 'em both. Not sold on either though. Freaking Rams should have listened to me in 2010. We'd have had a bridge QB, Cleveland's entire draft, and Dez Bryant. Once it became clear that we weren't dealing our pick, I was 100% in on Bradford. Now he's an Eagle and Dez is still where he started.

We need some divine intervention to get our all world QB this season . . . and Mad Mike!

 

[-X-]

1. There must have been something Mannion did at the NFL level that X liked
or
2. X considered Mannion to be a better prospect than Lynch is

No, that's not accurate. All I said was:
I'm not convinced that Lynch is any better than Mannion at this point.

 

[baconandbread]

Something else to consider... Would it be easier/more realistic to trade up for just Goff/Wentz and possibly have to use our second(s) or trade up to the late first round and get Treadwell and Lynch...I prefer the latter.

 

[-X-]

Something else to consider... Would it be easier/more realistic to trade up for just Goff/Wentz and possibly have to use our second(s) or trade up to the late first round and get Treadwell and Lynch...I prefer the latter.

 

[Rams43]

Is it possible that we're overlooking the obvious, here?

Here's my attempt at a process of elimination method decision point.

1) We have acute needs at QB, WR, LDE, and TE. And I do mean acute.

2) FA does not appear to offer realistic solutions to these 4 positions, so the draft must provide them.

3) Therefore, I do not favor trading up with valuable draft picks to get a Goff or a Wentz. Better short term and long term value in keeping the picks and getting starter quality players, I'm thinking.

Now we come to the second fork in this logic road...

Which players, realistically, will be sitting there at 15 for us?

If a QB (Lynch) is there and they feel he is clearly the best value/need player, take him.

But if a terrific WR (Treadwell) is clearly the best value/need player in their mind, then he should be the pick.

So it's more about which specific players are there, rather than which position has a higher value.

Remember two very possible factors in their thinking. They may feel that Treadwell is the safer pick in terms of his likely probability of success vs a QB. That's huge, imo. And they may also have their eye on another QB that they really consider a good fit and that they feel will be there in the 2nd round for them.

My point? Their draft strategy has multiple facets and is very nuanced.

Not unlike a chess game.

 

[Angry Ram]

QB. You don't have to have someone like Peyton.

You need someone like Phillip Rivers. A guy that knows his offense and doesn't keep turning the ball over. That's why Kirk Cousins played so well at the end of 2015. Plus that QB has to be stable. Can't keep switching starters b/c your impatient or have one bad season (i.e. Eli Manning, Matt Ryan).

WR is nice. But someone has to get him the ball.

 

[Ballhawk]

Getting back to the egg theme, should you put all of your eggs the QB basket and risk starving the rest of the team?

 

[RamFan503]

This is why it always bothers me when a QB like Dan is denigrated as a lifetime performer because he never won "the Big One" in what may very well be the ultimate team sport.

Nah - I was just having fun. No doubt Dan was a great QB. Obviously HOF worthy. It does kind of underscore though that even given that Miami had what was unquestionably the best QB in the league (at least in my mind) they still couldn't pull it off. And why? They came up against great defenses and had no real running game. We have a pretty damn good defense and what should be a very good running game. To the question @-X- posed, does that mean we win it all by trying to grab a QB for whom we would likely have to mortgage the future? Or do we get another weapon for our QB that really is still an unknown entity and might just be good enough to score a few more points and control the clock while our defense not only gets a bit more rest but can hold the score down like we saw most of the season?

I personally would lean toward a WR if there is one that looks like he will demand doubles while winning a fair number of catches. And I REALLY want a franchise QB. I just don't know that with the make up of this team that the QB position is as important as some others. It may be that good looks great when you have everything else.

 

[RamFan503]

Getting back to the egg theme, should you put all of your eggs the QB basket and risk starving the rest of the team?

Dunno. How big is the chicken?

 

[Merlin]

The Rams need at least one good WR, preferably two, and of course a QB.

If you address WR first the Rams could win enough to get into the playoffs, no doubt. That plus Gurley, plus the young OL coming into its own, etc would be enough. But then our pain would change from "why can't we have a winning season" to "why are we just another speed bump for the real contenders in the playoffs." Keenum is not the guy who will turn this team into a true contender. He could QB a winning team I think, get us into the playoffs, but that's about the length of it. His real value is as a cheap bridge option until the draftee knows the offense well enough to play.

QBs drafted nowadays need transition time. The Rams need to make that move so that clock can start ticking. With a solid backup type starter who avoids mistakes, a young OL, and the best young RB in the league in place, they're in a perfect spot to offer a drafted QB a bright future. This isn't some junk team that has to rebuild, and if they take the QB this year it means he will be ready for the opener in 2019 in the new stadium, don't think for a moment that doesn't matter.

This draft is quite deep at WR. That means the Rams can get a couple good WRs to help this unit into midrounds. Also, the "we need a #1 WR" stuff is hogwash. There is no correlation between having a dominant WR and winning championships. That is more about defense and overall balance offensively. Balance on offense can be had by simply adding a couple very good matchup problems in this draft, which is very doable without touching the round 1 pick.

The real question is whether the Rams can afford to move up to get a QB and still address other needs. The answer is yes. So, given that, plus the fact that Goff in particular is the most ready to play now, means trading up for him is my preference and what I would do if I were the Rams. They are not going to find a Brees in FA. They are probably not going to find an answer in trade either, given the insanity by teams in this FA period. It's gonna have to be the draft and if they go in to it wanting a guy they think will go round 3 or 4 and some team takes him, they're screwed so they cannot risk that. Moving up is the way IMO. It's what the Rams SHOULD do.

 

[12intheBox]

BTW - the chicken and the egg question was answered by Neil deGrasse Tyson a while back while discussion evolution.

The answer is the egg came first. The egg was laid by something which was almost - but not quite - a chicken.

 

[RamFan503]

There's an analogy i like to use. Put a great drummer behind a crappy group of musicians and they'll sound good. Put a crappy drummer behind a great bunch of musicians and the band will sound like crap.

You wouldn't by any chance be a drummer - would you Mojo?

 

[Ramhusker]

Is it possible that we're overlooking the obvious, here?

Here's my attempt at a process of elimination method decision point.

1) We have acute needs at QB, WR, LDE, and TE. And I do mean acute.

2) FA does not appear to offer realistic solutions to these 4 positions, so the draft must provide them.

3) Therefore, I do not favor trading up with valuable draft picks to get a Goff or a Wentz. Better short term and long term value in keeping the picks and getting starter quality players, I'm thinking.

Now we come to the second fork in this logic road...

Which players, realistically, will be sitting there at 15 for us?

If a QB (Lynch) is there and they feel he is clearly the best value/need player, take him.

But if a terrific WR (Treadwell) is clearly the best value/need player in their mind, then he should be the pick.

So it's more about which specific players are there, rather than which position has a higher value.

Remember two very possible factors in their thinking. They may feel that Treadwell is the safer pick in terms of his likely probability of success vs a QB. That's huge, imo. And they may also have their eye on another QB that they really consider a good fit and that they feel will be there in the 2nd round for them.

My point? Their draft strategy has multiple facets and is very nuanced.

Not unlike a chess game.

And when the dust settles, the Rams will probably draft BPA so it might be a DE or LB. In reality, Lynch, Hunter Henry, Tyler Boyd, etc. could well be available in the 2nd anyways.

 

[Ballhawk]

BTW - the chicken and the egg question was answered by Neil deGrasse Tyson a while back while discussion evolution.

The answer is the egg came first. The egg was laid by something which was almost - but not quite - a chicken.

The Turducken?

 

[Boston Ram]

I take the QB every time. IMO if you want to win consistently you have to have the QB. Yes you can win occasionally with mediocre QB play....case and point Denver this year.

One thing lost in all this too is coaching. You need a coach who coaches the talent not tries to have the talent adapt to a coaches scheme.

 

[Mojo Ram]

You wouldn't by any chance be a drummer - would you Mojo?

Why yes i am. A drummer to the core, but i can also play the guitar, bass, harmonica and some basic piano so i'm not being entirely biased here
IIRC it was Phil Collins who said that about drummers/bands....and while he was also primarily a drummer he could play just about every other instrument.

 

[Corbin]

Interesting thread. I'd have to say that if rather have a QB to lead us than a top tier WR and it shouldn't even be a debate. Look at Tim Brady with average wr's but his game management and ball placement makes every player on offense, especially those WR's, that much better.

And Look at Megatron, just being a beast of a WR that posts gawd you numbers isn't enough and isn't enough to get you to the big game with an average to a slightly above average QB.

QB please.

I honestly feel an average QB makes us a playoff team, an above average QB gets us into the championship game, and an elite QB gets us a few rings.

 

[Juice]

I hear it every year, and I am guilty of saying it myself sometimes. What good is having a top notch wide out if you do not have anyone to throw it to him. For me, it comes down to looking at it a certain way. Can a top wide receiver make an average QB play better, or can a top notch QB make average wide receivers better. A good QB has a way of elevating the whole team. A bad QB can ruin the defense with constant three and outs, turn overs, and inconsistent play. It tires the defense out, and can be a game killer in the fourth quarter.

The argument then is "Why have so many average QB's make it to the playoffs of even to the superbowl? " There are so many factors and moving parts that get successful team to playoffs and the dance, and QB and wide receiver are only a part of that. Coaches, all the other positions, regular season schedules, owners, money, injuries, and slew of other factors can get a team there with an average QB. However, if you want success at this level, the sure bet is having a franchise QB. Consistency is the sure winner.