Casserly: "I rate Watkins ahead of Julio Jones"

[RamsOfCastamere]

14. Sammy Watkins sold his soul to the devil for his great hands and superhuman speed. Shortly after the transaction was finalized, Sammy challenged Satan to a footrace and beat him running backwards. The devil, who appreciates irony, couldn't stay mad and admitted he should have seen it coming. They now play poker every Wednesday night.

15. They once made a Sammy Watkins toilet paper, but it wouldn't take crap from anybody

16. Sammy Watkins is 1/8th Cherokee. This has nothing to do with ancestry, he ate the Indian.

17. Sammy Watkins once ate an entire ream of rice paper and shat out origami swans and Mister Miyagi from The Karate Kid.

18. Sammy Watkins made Ellen Degeneres straight.

19. Sammy Watkins is what Willis was talking about.

20. When Sammy Watkins had surgery, the anesthesia was applied to the doctors.

21. Sammy Watkins is so fast that he once broke the land speed record on a bicycle that was missing its chain and the back tire.

22. Sammy Watkins drinks napalm to ease his heartburn.

23. Sammy Watkins can do a willy on a unicycle.

 

[jjab360]

You are so far off base and way too full on yourself but by all means continue.

Jones RAC is mostly on deeper balls when he's catching and running away from defenders, Watkins runs over them, around them AND b them.

Keep shadow boxing son.

You must not remember how Julio was killing us on screens all game long when we played Atlanta last season.

 

[jrry32]

You are so far off base and way too full on yourself but by all means continue.

Jones RAC is mostly on deeper balls when he's catching and running away from defenders, Watkins runs over them, around them AND b them.

Keep shadow boxing son.

Okay. So please tell me how that accounts for Julio being top 15 in broken tackles among NFL WRs in each of his first two years and on pace to LEAD the NFL in broken tackles among WRs in his third year before being injured.

I'll wait. Maybe you forgot the way Julio Jones worked us over last year during week 2 on screen passes?

RFIP, frankly, you claimed that Sammy Watkins has better hands than Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Alshon Jeffery, Anquan Boldin, and Andre Johnson. I don't think I'm the one that's off base on Watkins.

I think a lot of the kid but I don't think he's a WR God. He has flaws and he isn't elite in every attribute(or any attribute honestly).

 

[moklerman]

Something I think that is important in discussing these guys is their respective sizes. Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson are beasts. Watkins isn't in their size range. There's a big difference between a 6'5", 240 pound receiver beating defenses with speed, power and all the other great things and a 6'1", 205 pound guy trying to do the same. Watkins may play bigger than his 6'1" size but that doesn't mean that he can play as big as Jones/Johnson or whichever freak WR you want to compare him to.

Watkins is a very promising prospect but I hardly think he's in the same class as some of the blue-chippers that have come out the last 10 years and those guys wound up being hit and miss.

 

[RFIP]

Okay. So please tell me how that accounts for Julio being top 15 in broken tackles among NFL WRs in each of his first two years and on pace to LEAD the NFL in broken tackles among WRs in his third year before being injured.

I'll wait. Maybe you forgot the way Julio Jones worked us over last year during week 2 on screen passes?

RFIP, frankly, you claimed that Sammy Watkins has better hands than Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Alshon Jeffery, Anquan Boldin, and Andre Johnson. I don't think I'm the one that's off base on Watkins.

I think a lot of the kid but I don't think he's a WR God. He has flaws and he isn't elite in every attribute(or any attribute honestly).

A) You don't REALLY think a lot of Watkins, which is fine. You've made your bed their so please just sleep calmy. No need to hedge your bets "just in case you are wrong.." You are CLEARLY on record in my book and I'll be the first to give you full props if Watkins washes out.

B) Your constant talk of several other wr's more pro ready and better than this or that, in this draft is laughable. As time goes on there are more and more people who think Watkins game, though needing "some" work, is close to as air tight as possible.

C) If Jones catches a pass on the outside vs a db he has a very good chance of breaking a tackle, and if aganst Jenkins, well should those even really count??? What I'm talking about with Watkins seen so evidently in ANY oine of his videos, where he catches balls in traffic at or near the LOS and makes 5-10+ yards like you'd see a good rb get those "3-4 yards" on plays that are blocked for a zero yard gain.

Julio Jones is a fine, top 3-5 wr in this league in my opinion. I love the guy but I can see past the fact that even though Watkins is a few inches shorter he is still quite capable of reaching the heights as an NFL receiver that Jones is at, maybe not in the exact same manner but this kid will leave his own trail in time.

 

[jrry32]

A) You don't REALLY think a lot of Watkins, which is fine. You've made your bed their so please just sleep calmy. No need to hedge your bets "just in case you are wrong.." You are CLEARLY on record in my book and I'll be the first to give you full props if Watkins washes out.

This is humorous irony of the situation. You have no idea what you're talking about. I rated Watkins as the #1 WR and a top 6 talent in this draft. I don't agree with YOUR evaluation of the player. I think you overrate the hell out of the guy. The way you spin things, he's a Calvin Johnson esque prospect. I mean, the guy has world class speed, the best hands since Fitzgerald, better at running after the catch than Julio Jones, and plays bigger than Julio Jones.

IMO, that's nuts. Absolutely nuts. I think the kid is what he is. He's a great but not elite WR prospect. Solid size with a good, strong build. Physical runner after the catch that is difficult to bring down. Great but not elite speed. Explosive burst. Uses the body he has well. Very good pair of hands. Good ball-skills. Quick feet. Smart player that appears to work hard and enjoy the game. However, he lacks a truly elite attribute. He's stiff in the hips and an upright runner. Not a polished route runner. Didn't have to make a lot of contested catches or work within traffic much in college. Played in a gimmicky offense that utilized a limited route tree and far too many screens and dump-offs.

B) Your constant talk of several other wr's more pro ready and better than this or that, in this draft is laughable. As time goes on there are more and more people who think Watkins game, though needing "some" work, is close to as air tight as possible.

Watch Sammy Watkins run a route. Watch Jared Abbrederis run a route. You'll then see why I say Jared Abbrederis is more pro ready. Hopefully.

C) If Jones catches a pass on the outside vs a db he has a very good chance of breaking a tackle, and if aganst Jenkins, well should those even really count??? What I'm talking about with Watkins seen so evidently in ANY oine of his videos, where he catches balls in traffic at or near the LOS and makes 5-10+ yards like you'd see a good rb get those "3-4 yards" on plays that are blocked for a zero yard gain.

Julio Jones is a fine, top 3-5 wr in this league in my opinion. I love the guy but I can see past the fact that even though Watkins is a few inches shorter he is still quite capable of reaching the heights as an NFL receiver that Jones is at, maybe not in the exact same manner but this kid will leave his own trail in time.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. The GOAT, Jerry Rice, was a 6'2" WR that ran a 4.59 40. Once Watkins gets to the league, he could very well develop into a better player than Jones if he wants it bad enough and is willing to work hard enough for it.

But as a prospect, Watkins isn't as talented as Jones. And the idea that Jones didn't bully and run over DBs in college is flat out wrong.


The fact that you say he has a very good chance of breaking a tackle against PRO CBs should tell you how good of a runner he is. The man is a powerfully built 6'3" 220+ with tight end like strength, breakaway speed, explosive burst, and great balance. He also runs with high knees once he reaches speed which makes it difficult to ankle tackle him. The guy is extremely difficult to bring down. Watkins is a plenty talented YAC WR. But Julio is one of the best in the NFL and he simply has a size/speed/strength combo that Watkins doesn't quite have.

 

[RFIP]

IMO, that's nuts. Absolutely nuts. I think the kid is what he is. He's a great but not elite WR prospect. Solid size with a good, strong build. Physical runner after the catch that is difficult to bring down. Great but not elite speed. Explosive burst. Uses the body he has well. Very good pair of hands. Good ball-skills. Quick feet. Smart player that appears to work hard and enjoy the game. However, he lacks a truly elite attribute. He's stiff in the hips and an upright runner. Not a polished route runner. Didn't have to make a lot of contested catches or work within traffic much in college. Played in a gimmicky offense that utilized a limited route tree and far too many screens and dump-offs.

I do not put him in the Megatron class. To me he is in a class ALL BY HIMSELF.

I believe Watkins ceiling is in the next class of elite wr's, he's not in that class all by himself but it sure don't take long to call roll.

You continue to "say" the right things about him but then just as quicklyyou say there is 5+ wr's MORE ready than he is, which is hogwash, lunacy really.

I have a stance, it's clear.

You?

Waffle.

Don't talk out both sides of your mouth.

Here is where the rubber meets the road, in YOUR opinion, what is Watkins ceiling?

And just so I have more perspective of how you rate wr's, where would you rate Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and T Holt among TODAY'S wr's?


His ability to be physical with db's is Boldin-esque. The way he high points the ball, excellent. His much talked about way of extending his arms to make catches in traffic so as to keep the defender from getting their hand on the ball first is very rare. His ability to hit top gear as soon as he catches the ball is outstanding as well. And I love how physical he is as a blocker too.

But for me the way that he understands and sees the game, it has never been too big for him. His coach at Clemson talks about this all the time, he was ready for major college football the day he arrived at Clemson....and he'll do the same in the NFL. Heck he's already won the respect of several NFL players.

 

[jrry32]

I do not put him in the Megatron class. To me he is in a class ALL BY HIMSELF.

I believe Watkins ceiling is in the next class of elite wr's, he's not in that class all by himself but it sure don't take long to call roll.

You continue to "say" the right things about him but then just as quicklyyou say there is 5+ wr's MORE ready than he is, which is hogwash, lunacy really.

I said there are 5 WRs. I'll name them for you.
1. Jared Abbrederis WR Wisconsin - NFL caliber route runner(not just NFL caliber...OUTSTANDING), reliable hands, former QB(cerebral), 4.44-4.50 40 at the combine...3 year starter...NFL ready player with a limited ceiling

2. Brandin Cooks WR Oregon State - Undersized but freakish athlete with great YAC skills and deceptively strong...runs good routes and is explosive in and out of his breaks...size limits his overall ceiling

3. Robert Herron WR Wyoming - Developed route runner, solid hands, very good athlete and good runner after the catch...size limits overall ceiling and will likely end up in the slot in the NFL

4. Odell Beckham Jr. WR LSU - Played for Cam Cameron in college(former NFL HC and OC) in a pro style offense that asked him to run NFL routes and a NFL route tree, top tier athlete, strong hands, and talented runner...only 5'11" but my #3 WR in this draft...needs to improve on the lapses in concentration leading to drops

5. Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt - Effortless mover, did the dirty work for Vanderbilt, good YAC threat, breakaway speed, 6'3" 215, smart player known for being a film junkie and an incredibly hard worker...solid route runner...needs to improve his concentration to cut down on drops and needs to be more physical when the ball is in the air...my #4 WR in this draft

And there you have it. Those are the 5.

You don't put him in the Megatron class? He's all by himself? That, alone, says it all.

I have a stance, it's clear.

You?

Waffle.

Don't talk out both sides of your mouth.

I'll explain this to you as bluntly as possible. You take any prospect out there and I'll have negative and positive things to say about them. That's not called talking out of both sides of your mouth. That's called evaluating a prospect. No such thing as the perfect player. Every player has flaws and every player can improve on things.

If you think that there's nothing negative to be said about Watkins then you frankly are doing a terrible job of evaluating him and need to remove emotion from the equation.

I haven't waffled on a single thing. I haven't talked out of both sides of my mouth. I've made criticisms and I've stood behind them. I've complimented parts of his game and I've stood behind them.

Here is where the rubber meets the road, in YOUR opinion, what is Watkins ceiling?

As I've said all along, I think he's a combination of Torrey Smith and Pierre Garcon. He has Smith's ability to get vertical with Garcon's ability to create after catch. Has a similar build to both.

What does that make him? A very good #1 WR...would slot in somewhere between #5 and #10 in the NFL.

Now, this is what I see as a realistic ceiling. Obviously, no one expected Jerry Rice to be Jerry Rice. But those guys are the closest comparisons I see for him.

And I'm not saying he'll be that from Day 1. He'll developed into that. His rookie year, he'll likely be utilized more as a vertical threat as he adjusts to the NFL game.

And just so I have more perspective of how you rate wr's, where would you rate Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and T Holt among TODAY'S wr's?

Prime Rice is the GOAT. He's #1. Prime Moss would be 2nd only behind Rice. Prime Holt would slot in behind Prime Rice, Prime Moss, and Calvin Johnson if we were talking today's game.

His much talked about way of extending his arms to make catches in traffic so as to keep the defender from getting their hand on the ball first is very rare.

No. That's not rare. First of all, if you're not leaping for the ball, you shouldn't be extending away from your frame while in heavy traffic. WRs are taught to body the ball in traffic to keep the CB from being able to "tomahawk chop" their arms or the ball in order to knock it lose. You're taught to catch it with your hands close to your frame and immediately pull it into your frame to protect the football. Here you have Michael Irvin explaining how you "body the ball" in traffic:

Second of all, snatching the ball away from your frame when not in heavy traffic is not very rare. It's not rare at all. It's how you're taught to do it as a WR. If you don't do that, I pretty much remove you from my board(see Marqise Lee). Players that don't do it are called "body-catchers". They trap the ball using their hands/arms and their body. When I see that, it leads me to believe the guy doesn't have natural hands which is something you really can't teach.

So while I agree with you that Watkins doing that is important. It's far from rare. There are a large number of WRs in college football and in this draft class that do the same thing. Watkins's has natural hands and reliable hands. I like that. But he doesn't have an elite pair of hands. They're very good. Nothing wrong with that.

You may not respect my evaluation on Watkins but the WR position is the position I know the most about when it comes to football. It's why it's the position that I evaluate most effectively. I do my homework on these players and I make sure that I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Alan]

To be fair to RFIP, the title of this thread shows that his opinion is held by at least one former very successful GM and thus others are seeing the same thing.

Although I agree with jrry's view on him.

 

[jjab360]

I do not put him in the Megatron class. To me he is in a class ALL BY HIMSELF.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

I'm pretty sure rfip is saying megatron is in a class all by himself.

.

 

[Alan]

And then people say things that brings their whole credibility into question. :eek:

EDIT: Great point kurtfaulk! Shows me why I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

 

[mr.stlouis]

Okay. So please tell me how that accounts for Julio being top 15 in broken tackles among NFL WRs in each of his first two years and on pace to LEAD the NFL in broken tackles among WRs in his third year before being injured.

I'll wait. Maybe you forgot the way Julio Jones worked us over last year during week 2 on screen passes?

RFIP, frankly, you claimed that Sammy Watkins has better hands than Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Alshon Jeffery, Anquan Boldin, and Andre Johnson. I don't think I'm the one that's off base on Watkins.

I think a lot of the kid but I don't think he's a WR God. He has flaws and he isn't elite in every attribute(or any attribute honestly).

Watkins, Austin, and Givens is a blazing trio. I would love to see it.

 

[Tron]

I like Jarvis Landry as a mid round prospect.

Oh yea, Watkins is alright.

 

[CGI_Ram]

I like Jarvis Landry as a mid round prospect.

Oh yea, Watkins is alright.

I was thinking of putting a post up on Landry.

He's not a big WR (6-0, 205), certainly disappointed in the 40... But I like him. He "looks the part" on the field.

Perhaps others can chime in?

 

[Tron]

I was thinking of putting a post up on Landry.

He's not a big WR (6-0, 205), certainly disappointed in the 40... But I like him. He "looks the part" on the field.

Perhaps others can chime in?

Agree he looks the part. He reminds me of a slightly bigger, slightly slower Bailey. And at this point i just want wr's who can run routes and fucking catch the damn ball like Studman lol. So tired of drops and losing fights for the ball. Have read a lot of people calling him Boldin 2.0.

 

[jap]

Give Sam some receivers/TE's/RB's with decent hands, and he will spread the ball around---just as he did at Oklahoma. That's one of the reasons I am not too concerned about the #1 WR concept as Sam will use every eligible receiver with hands if he trusts them.

 

[DR RAM]

I was thinking of putting a post up on Landry.

He's not a big WR (6-0, 205), certainly disappointed in the 40... But I like him. He "looks the part" on the field.

Perhaps others can chime in?

I like him, but I like Bekham Jr, better. He's very crisp out of his routes.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Seems it's impossible to just like Sammy Watkins. Anything short of considering him elite seems to rankle feathers.

 

[jrry32]

I was thinking of putting a post up on Landry.

He's not a big WR (6-0, 205), certainly disappointed in the 40... But I like him. He "looks the part" on the field.

Perhaps others can chime in?

Personally, I'm not a fan. I think he's a slot WR in the NFL and he reminds me of Brandon Gibson and Jason Avant. Nothing wrong with him. I just don't see much upside.

He's not fast enough to separate vertically or explosive enough to separate consistently as a route runner. That was my take on him before the combine. Great pair of hands and runs hard after the catch but just doesn't have the athleticism.