Brian Schottenheimer Is Not the Problem

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[-X-]

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[Memphis Ram]

Who over-achieved? Sanchez. We all know he's not very good.

Who did he develop? Thomas Jones? Jericho Cotchery? Kellen Clemens? Leon Washington? Brad Smith? Dustin Keller? Shonn Greene?
(now list all of those guys' achievements after they left the Jets)

Who over-achieved? See above.

If you want me to say Schotty sucks because of all the Pro Bowl talent around him that went on to have successful careers elsewhere, it ain't happenin'.

Think you might be reaching a bit here?

Thomas Jones & Leon Washington were already developed. And Cotchery's numbers started to decline while Schottenhiemer was still in New York. Brad Smith has been a decent Wildcat Option and return guy at best. Kellon Clemens?

 

[ausmurp]

Schott is part of the problem for sure, you cannot say he isn't just look at his offensive track record. He has a dinosaur offensive play calling style that is pretty much extinct in the NFL and we are the only team keeping it alive. And unfortunately Fisher prefers this style, so Fisher is part of the problem as well. Look at any other team who runs the ball good and you will see creativity - a ton of it - and that is the reason it works. Even the Steelers have done a ton of creative run plays this year I know because I've watched them a lot - Haley is amazing OC by the way. We will never have a top 15 offense with Fisher and Schott coaching this team together. Our best chance is to get a high profile OC like Trestman or Whisenhunt if fired or an up and coming college coach. I'm so tired of watching the Rams have one of the worst offenses in the NFL. Add a top 15 offense to this current D and we are in playoff contention every year.

 

[-X-]

Think you might be reaching a bit here?

Thomas Jones & Leon Washington were already developed. And Cotchery's numbers started to decline while Schottenhiemer was still in New York. Brad Smith has been a decent Wildcat Option and return guy at best. Kellon Clemens?

Well here's the thing, Mem. There are no other weapons on that team who I can choose from in 2006-2011. Which is kind of my point. Not a single one has gone on to do anything of note with any other team. Kind of like the Brandon Gibson, Austin Pettis, Danny Amendola and Daryl Richardson situation here. If guys can only be developed to a point before their ceiling is reached, then how can that be an indictment of the OC? Even Martz couldn't do anything to turn guys like Trung Candidate and Yo Murphy into pro bowlers.

If the objective is to prove that Schottenheimer is a bad OC because none of his players have crashed through their ceilings, and that's the basis for the argument that he's a bad OC, then it's kind of a bad argument and an intellectually dishonest one at that. This isn't directed at you, but I don't know how people can be so willfully ignorant of the idea that he hasn't had a ton of talent to work with yet. To his credit, Bradford improved, Quick improved, Bailey improved, Cook improved, and Kendricks improved under him, yeah? What are their ceilings? Why should they be expected to super-improve just because of the OC, if they're only capable of doing so much?

To hammer home my point, would Schottenheimer be a good OC if he had Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson or Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald? Of course. But last year Rodgers missed 6 games and the Packers went 1-5-1 during that span. The coordinator wasn't great, then bad, then great again that year. He just had less to work with. Same with the Cardinals when they lost Palmer. 8-1 with him, and 3-3 without. Same guy calling the plays, but one noticeable difference.

That's all I'm saying, and I can't for the life of me understand why people WANT to disprove these kinds of fact-based arguments in the interest of being right about how shitty a Rams' coach really is. It's like they WANT that to be the case no matter what other evidence may come to light. Well, I'm not in that camp and I'm not that lazy. But more importantly, I don't throw players or coaches under the bus unless they really, really deserve it. Also not the case in this situation.

 

[Username]

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Oh, that's relevant.

 

[MrMotes]

Think you might be reaching a bit here?

Thomas Jones & Leon Washington were already developed. And Cotchery's numbers started to decline while Schottenhiemer was still in New York. Brad Smith has been a decent Wildcat Option and return guy at best. Kellon Clemens?

And that's my point. There just aren't a lot of guys in Schotty's past where you can say he really did something good. You probably have to go back to his days as QB coach in SD...

 

[-X-]

And that's my point. There just aren't a lot of guys in Schotty's past where you can say he really did something good

And that's my point as well. We're just making it in different ways.
So let me ask you. Are any of those players guys you would consider to be great based on what they did after their time with the Jets?

 

[MrMotes]

To hammer home my point, would Schottenheimer be a good OC if he had Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson or Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald?

If he got them as established NFL stars, sure.

But if he got them as rookies? Well then i'm not sure. Schotty has had a lot of promising rookies to work with that just didn't quite pan out. I'm inclined to put a lot of that on BS, whereas i know you think it's mostly the players...

 

[-X-]

If he got them as established NFL stars, sure.

But if he got them as rookies? Well then i'm not sure. Schotty has had a lot of promising rookies to work with that just didn't quite pan out. I'm inclined to put a lot of that on BS, whereas i know you think it's mostly the players...

Kinda, but I'm not trying to say he had garbage to work with. He had NFL players, and all NFL players are good enough to get to this rank and deserve some credit for that. But league history is littered with role players and players who wash out after a few years. I find it hard to believe that Schotty is such a bad coach that he ruined these guys to the point that they couldn't go to another team and do something. Or stay on after he left and realize their full potential because he was holding them back. None of that has happened.

 

[oldramfan]

We say this stuff every year, that it's not this guy's fault etc. It IS schotty's fault for being unimaginative, predictable and unable to make changes to the game plan as we go along. You learn in pop warner football that if there is a big rush you use draw plays or screens to combat that and we were dreadful making those changes. That is just one of a hundred little things Schotty does wrong. He needs to go in the worst way.

 

[MrMotes]

Kinda, but I'm not trying to say he had garbage to work with. He had NFL players, and all NFL players are good enough to get to this rank and deserve some credit for that. But league history is littered with role players and players who wash out after a few years. I find it hard to believe that Schotty is such a bad coach that he ruined these guys to the point that they couldn't go to another team and do something. Or stay on after he left and realize their full potential because he was holding them back. None of that has happened.

Even with average players, his offenses have been worse than average. Pennington got a few MVP votes when he went to Miami. Sachez's career is on the upswing, if that goes anywhere further, we'll have to wait and see.

The excuse i'm willing to make for BS is he's coached under old-school defensive minded head coaches Rex Ryan and Jeff Fisher. My opinion is he's a bad OC and he's been hamstrung by his HC's. I don't buy into the talent argument. As you've said, there's talent across the board in the NFL and Schcotty's results have been consistently sub par.

You say Sanchez is garage. Then why is Philly's offense so much better than ours? I'm gonna go with coaching...

 

[-X-]

Even with average players, his offenses have been worse than average. Pennington got a few MVP votes when he went to Miami. Sachez's career is on the upswing, if that goes anywhere further, we'll have to wait and see.

The excuse i'm willing to make for BS is he's coached under old-school defensive minded head coaches Rex Ryan and Jeff Fisher. My opinion is he's a bad OC and he's been hamstrung by his HC's. I don't buy into the talent argument. As you've said, there's talent across the board in the NFL and Schcotty's results have been consistently sub par.

You say Sanchez is garage. Then why is Philly's offense so much better than ours? I'm gonna go with coaching...

I don't think I said Sanchez is garbage, but if I did I take it back. He's just not very good. The only point I've tried to make relative to Sanchez and how he relates to Schotty and Kelly is that he's not the type of QB who can maximize their schemes. I'd make the argument that Schotty was pragmatic enough to scale his back to protect Sanchez, whereas Kelly tried to roll business as usual with him, and he's getting mixed results. Either way, Sanchez isn't who you want as an OC if you want to showcase what you're capable of achieving. Don't agree with that?

You might have a point about Schotty and his head coaches, as that's been brought up before too. I still don't agree that Schotty should have made average talent into pro bowlers. It's simply not something that happens very often in the NFL. There are far more cases of average talent staying average talent no matter who their HC or OC may be. And that's absolutely the case with the players he had in NY. It's yet to be determined if he's the one holding back our players here. But even then, I don't think he is. There's been gradual improvement for quite a few of our players since he's been here. He just hasn't had ANY consistency at QB to complete the equation.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Well here's the thing, Mem. There are no other weapons on that team who I can choose from in 2006-2011. Which is kind of my point. Not a single one has gone on to do anything of note with any other team. Kind of like the Brandon Gibson, Austin Pettis, Danny Amendola and Daryl Richardson situation here. If guys can only be developed to a point before their ceiling is reached, then how can that be an indictment of the OC? Even Martz couldn't do anything to turn guys like Trung Candidate and Yo Murphy into pro bowlers.

If the objective is to prove that Schottenheimer is a bad OC because none of his players have crashed through their ceilings, and that's the basis for the argument that he's a bad OC, then it's kind of a bad argument and an intellectually dishonest one at that. This isn't directed at you, but I don't know how people can be so willfully ignorant of the idea that he hasn't had a ton of talent to work with yet. To his credit, Bradford improved, Quick improved, Bailey improved, Cook improved, and Kendricks improved under him, yeah? What are their ceilings? Why should they be expected to super-improve just because of the OC, if they're only capable of doing so much?

To hammer home my point, would Schottenheimer be a good OC if he had Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson or Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald? Of course. But last year Rodgers missed 6 games and the Packers went 1-5-1 during that span. The coordinator wasn't great, then bad, then great again that year. He just had less to work with. Same with the Cardinals when they lost Palmer. 8-1 with him, and 3-3 without. Same guy calling the plays, but one noticeable difference.

That's all I'm saying, and I can't for the life of me understand why people WANT to disprove these kinds of fact-based arguments in the interest of being right about how crappy a Rams' coach really is. It's like they WANT that to be the case no matter what other evidence may come to light. Well, I'm not in that camp and I'm not that lazy. But more importantly, I don't throw players or coaches under the bus unless they really, really deserve it. Also not the case in this situation.

I see what you are saying. But, some guys simply get injured or are near the end of their careers post Schottenhiemer. Hard to fault those for not doing better.

Plus, we are talking about a league where there is an influx of new personnel coming in every year. With this, unfair or no, players get only so many chances to do or show anything. Especially skill position players. I'm a firm believer that there are some players who could do some things in the league, but simply won't get as much of an opportunity because they didn't light it up immediately or at their last stop. This while teams hold on to their rookies and guys who already know their system(s).

Would Schottenheimer be viewed as a good OC if he had Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson or Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald? I don't know. I think he's just OK now. That said, one could also ask would those guys be as good/effective if Schottenheimer were their OC? I have my doubts.

Maybe he has been unlucky these 9 years. Or maybe he's a part of the problem.

Wowsy Wowsy Woo Woo

 

[-X-]

I see what you are saying. But, some guys simply get injured or near the end of their careers post Schottenhiemer. Hard to fault those for not doing better.

Plus, we are talking about a league where there is an influx of new personnel coming in every year. With this, unfair or no, players get only so many chances to do or show anything. Especially skill position players. I'm a firm believer that there are some players who could do some things in the league, but simply won't get as much of an opportunity because they didn't light it up immediately or at their last stop. This while teams hold on to their rookies and guys who already know their system(s).

Would Schottenheimer be viewed as a good OC if he had Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson or Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald? I don't know. I think he's just OK now. That said, one could also ask would those guys be as good/effective if Schottenheimer were their OC? I have my doubts.

Occam's razor.

I guess the only way to find out if Schotty is as good or bad as people say, is if the Rams do or don't make the playoffs before he's gone.
WITH a decent healthy QB, is my only caveat now.

 

[moklerman]

Occam's razor.

I guess the only way to find out if Schotty is as good or bad as people say, is if the Rams do or don't make the playoffs before he's gone.
WITH a decent healthy QB, is my only caveat now.

I think that's why people are looking at what Sanchez is doing with Philly. He may not be giving Kelly the opportunity to unleash his full arsenal but Sanchez is outplaying what Foles was doing this year and far out-producing what he did in NYJ.

So far, that's about the only guy we can look at and compare what was done with Schottenheimer compared to somewhere else. Favre was Favre. As far as I can remember, there wasn't any really noticeable difference either way with him.

I do think that the current Rams offense would have a real chance to perform at a lot higher level with Bradford(or a bonafide starter) but even then, I worry about Schotty's overall ability to A) call a less predictable game B) run plays that create favorable matchups and get receivers open and C) adjust to defenses much less dictate to defenses.

 

[Prime Time]

Just waded through all 11 pages of this thread. Interesting, informative, and at times funny. That's why I come here each day. Thanks guys.

But the Groundhog Day reference really hit home.

 

[Alan]

jrry32 wanting more:
do you mind giving me your top 10 defenses for the 2014 season?

I don't know what condition I was in when I read this the first time but I just now noticed this part.

One will be forthcoming tomorrow. When I'm in better shape to make one.

 

[Prime Time]

@Alan

Love your red remarks. You should collect them and write a bathroom reading book. :snicker:

 

[Alan]

Prime Time needing something if he runs out:
Love your red remarks. You should collect them and write a bathroom reading book.

I like the idea. Paperback version only of course. Dual purpose in an ecological kind of way.