Brian Schottenheimer Is Not the Problem

[MrMotes]

Hell, the guy was the QB Coach in San Diego when Drew Brees and Philip Rivers were developed.

You gotta go back a ways for that one, and i'd be inclined to give Cam Cameron the lion's share of the credit considering his resume.

 

[MrMotes]

Dude. Do you think I'm an idiot or something? The question was asked, "Who went to the Pro-Bowl under Schottenheimer?"

I. freaking. answered. it.

If the question was, "which undeveloped rookies and non-established veterans went to the pro-bowl under Schottenheimer?", I would have answered that.
Of course that would have been a loaded question, so I'll wait on it.

I also asked who he'd developed, who'd ever over achieved while he BS was OC.

Not a lot of answers to those questions, because, let's face it, there aren't many. He has few real success stories, especially considering how many years he's been in the business. Mainly he has reasons for not having success stories.

 

[moklerman]

Dude. Do you think I'm an idiot or something? The question was asked, "Who went to the Pro-Bowl under Schottenheimer?"

I. freaking. answered. it.

If the question was, "which undeveloped rookies and non-established veterans went to the pro-bowl under Schottenheimer?", I would have answered that.
Of course that would have been a loaded question, so I'll wait on it.

Dude, this was the (multi-part)question that was asked:
"I've asked it before, where are BS's success stories? Who has he ever developed into anything? Who has over achieved playing for him? Who has ever gone to the pro bowl playing for him? (Favre, LT maybe?)"

It covers more than just pro-bowl appearances and the gist of the question seems pretty clear.

 

[TexasRam]

I understand the lack of talent arguement. I really do. Ive seen Brady struggle with lack of weapons. Ive seen Brees and Manning do the same.

But the problem i have with Schotty is gets so dam stubborn about running the ball right up the middle. Ad Nauseum. It bothers me that he so rarely runs counters or runs to the outside. It Bothers me even more that he doesnt understand how to slow down a blitz with screens and quick outs. He rarely runs a slant route.

He is notorious for not having a counter adjustment once a defense comes out of halftime adjusting to his gameplan.

His offense rarely uses the clock well in crunchtime when the game is on the line.

He is finally using Tavon on sweeps and reverse/double reverses. Why did it take 20+ games to realize Tavon would be an asset on these plays.

Ive been playing, coaching, and watching football for 35+ years. Ive seen worse OC's. But I would rank Schotty as below average at the NFL level.

 

[-X-]

Dude, this was the (multi-part)question that was asked:
"I've asked it before, where are BS's success stories? Who has he ever developed into anything? Who has over achieved playing for him? Who has ever gone to the pro bowl playing for him? (Favre, LT maybe?)"

It covers more than just pro-bowl appearances and the gist of the question seems pretty clear.

So why are you pointing out only part of my response? *I'M* the only who's arguing for the fun of it now?

 

[jrry32]

You gotta go back a ways for that one, and i'd be inclined to give Cam Cameron the lion's share of the credit considering his resume.

Of course. Which is ignoring the fact that Schotty is still employed in the NFL.

I don't have to go back for Bradford and Sanchez playing arguably the best football of their careers under Schotty. And while Favre wasn't playing the best football of his career, he was having a strong year and the Jets offense was scoring a lot.

Or how about Hill and Davis playing arguably the best football of their respective careers.

I don't think Schotty is some amazing OC but it's hard to ignore the fact that Sanchez looked decent enough to get a sizable extension under him, Bradford was playing very good football before his injury, and Hill/Davis actually have posted pretty good numbers this year despite all their limitations.

 

[jrry32]

But the problem i have with Schotty is gets so dam stubborn about running the ball right up the middle. Ad Nauseum. It bothers me that he so rarely runs counters or runs to the outside. It Bothers me even more that he doesnt understand how to slow down a blitz with screens and quick outs. He rarely runs a slant route.

I agree with all of this. Although, oddly enough, the joke with him in New York was that he overused the slant route.

He is notorious for not having a counter adjustment once a defense comes out of halftime adjusting to his gameplan.

Are we sure about this? Or is my alternative theory worth considering? He has scripted the plays well early on which has allowed us to jump on opponents but once they adjusted to what we were doing, our limited talent couldn't overcome it.

Consider Bradford's passing splits in 2012 and 2013 with Schotty:
Q1: 5 TDs
Q2: 8 TDs
Q3: 8 TDs
Q4: 14 TDs

That paints a pretty different picture. Which makes me wonder if we'd be struggling to adjust with a guy like Bradford at QB. But it also makes me wonder why Schotty's scripts weren't as brilliant until Sam went down.(was Bradford a slow starter or has Schotty elevated his game due to the QBs?)

His offense rarely uses the clock well in crunchtime when the game is on the line.

Again, I have to disagree. We actually looked pretty darn good in 2012 and 2013 with Sam when it came time to make game tying and game winning drives.

He is finally using Tavon on sweeps and reverse/double reverses. Why did it take 20+ games to realize Tavon would be an asset on these plays.

We were using that stuff last year. It's Tavon's passing game usage that gets me. But I gotta wonder if some of that is due to Tavon not being there yet as a WR.

Ive been playing, coaching, and watching football for 35+ years. Ive seen worse OC's. But I would rank Schotty as below average at the NFL level.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. You may not be wrong. I'm torn on Schotty right now but that seems to be the consensus on him. And we both know that you're a knowledgeable guy, Tex.

 

[moklerman]

So why are you pointing out only part of my response? *I'M* the only who's arguing for the fun of it now?

I don't know, I just didn't want to create a laundry list of counter-responses so I picked an example that seemed to encapsulate how I thought you were missing the point.

Your list doesn't really seem to illustrate how Schottenheimer has elevated or developed many(any?).

 

[-X-]

I also asked who he'd developed, who'd ever over achieved while he BS was OC.

Not a lot of answers to those questions, because, let's face it, there aren't many. He has few real success stories, especially considering how many years he's been in the business. Mainly he has reasons for not having success stories.

Dude, this was the (multi-part)question that was asked:
"I've asked it before, where are BS's success stories? Who has he ever developed into anything? Who has over achieved playing for him? Who has ever gone to the pro bowl playing for him? (Favre, LT maybe?)"

It covers more than just pro-bowl appearances and the gist of the question seems pretty clear.

Who over-achieved? Sanchez. We all know he's not very good.

Who did he develop? Thomas Jones? Jericho Cotchery? Kellen Clemens? Leon Washington? Brad Smith? Dustin Keller? Shonn Greene?
(now list all of those guys' achievements after they left the Jets)

Who over-achieved? See above.

If you want me to say Schotty sucks because of all the Pro Bowl talent around him that went on to have successful careers elsewhere, it ain't happenin'.

 

[-X-]

I don't know, I just didn't want to create a laundry list of counter-responses so I picked an example that seemed to encapsulate how I thought you were missing the point.

No you didn't. You tried to get me in an "aha!" moment, and you failed.

 

[MrMotes]

Of course. Which is ignoring the fact that Schotty is still employed in the NFL.

I don't have to go back for Bradford and Sanchez playing arguably the best football of their careers under Schotty. And while Favre wasn't playing the best football of his career, he was having a strong year and the Jets offense was scoring a lot.

Or how about Hill and Davis playing arguably the best football of their respective careers.

I don't think Schotty is some amazing OC but it's hard to ignore the fact that Sanchez looked decent enough to get a sizable extension under him, Bradford was playing very good football before his injury, and Hill/Davis actually have posted pretty good numbers this year despite all their limitations.

Pennington went on to have a great year in Miami as did Favre in Minnesota.

If Hill and Davis are BS success stories, i think my case is made.

 

[moklerman]

We were using that stuff last year. It's Tavon's passing game usage that gets me. But I gotta wonder if some of that is due to Tavon not being there yet as a WR.

I think that, coupled with the severely lacking arm strength of Clemens/Davis/Hill have stunted his development. I don't see any reason why Tavon couldn't replicate the "break it deep" adjustments that guys like D. Jackson have been living off of other than the QB's who've been throwing to him can't get it there.

That paints a pretty different picture. Which makes me wonder if we'd be struggling to adjust with a guy like Bradford at QB. But it also makes me wonder why Schotty's scripts weren't as brilliant until Sam went down.(was Bradford a slow starter or has Schotty elevated his game due to the QBs?)

I think I'm where you are on Schottenheimer. Torn. I can't say for sure that he couldn't do better if he had better personnel but it does seem like he doesn't get the most out of what he has had to work with.

 

[-X-]

Pennington went on to have a great year in Miami as did Favre in Minnesota.

If Hill and Davis are BS success stories, i think my case is made.

I never said Hill and Davis are success stories, now did I? My God....

You know what? You win. No matter what I say to refute your comments, you can always pull the "who did he send to the pro bowl" card.
Because there have been some stellar players who left his tutelage and went on to enjoy multiple trips to Hawaii.

 

[MrMotes]

I never said Hill and Davis are success stories, now did I? My God....

You know what? You win. No matter what I say to refute your comments, you can always pull the "who did he send to the pro bowl" card.
Because there have been some stellar players who left his tutelage and went on to enjoy multiple trips to Hawaii.

My reply was to jrry32. Don't we have enough to disagree about without adding misunderstandings?

 

[moklerman]

No you didn't. You tried to get me in an "aha!" moment, and you failed.

Well, considering our conversations are going like this:

Bottom line is, he isn't getting it done for Chip Kelly either.

I didn't say *he* isn't getting it done

I guess we're just on different wavelengths today.

 

[jrry32]

Pennington went on to have a great year in Miami as did Favre in Minnesota.

He did. But Pennington was also a poor fit for the Air Coryell so while he didn't make optimal use of Pennington, it just seems like the wrong guy for his system. Keep in mind that Pennington had success in Miami under Sparano and then they brought Sparano into NYJ for Sanchez who completely tanked under Sparano.

Yes, Favre did have a career year in Minnesota...but he was also on pace for a very strong year in New York. And Favre had more talent around him in Minnesota with Darrell Bevell as OC. Bevell is a pretty highly respected OC in his own right.

If Hill and Davis are BS success stories, i think my case is made.

I don't see how. I think Schottenheimer getting a respectable year statistically out of those two at QB is a pretty huge success story.

Getting Favre to play at a Pro Bowl level isn't overly impressive to me. Now, if you got Jimmy Clausen(for example) to play at an above average level, I'd consider that hugely impressive.

So yea, I think it's impressive that those two have put up respectable numbers despite their numerous deficiencies.

 

[-X-]

My reply was to jrry32. Don't we have enough to disagree about without adding misunderstandings?

My mistake. And yes, it seems there's more than enough to disagree about.

 

[MrMotes]

My mistake. And yes, it seems there's more than enough to disagree about.

No worries.

 

[-X-]

Well, considering our conversations are going like this:


I guess we're just on different wavelengths today.

Yep. I guess so. I'm trying to illustrate that Schottenheimer hasn't ever really held a straight flush so far in his career in terms of the talent he's had to work with. If you want to steer me away from that in an attempt to demonstrate that Schottenheimer is a bad coach despite that, then you can find someone more willing to entertain the notion. I won't get into it with you anymore. I thought I answered all of the pointed questions rather adequately, but apparently more questions can arise when those answers don't prove your point.

Now. My point, with regard to what you quoted from me (those two statements) was that Sanchez doesn't give Kelly or Schottenheimer the flexibility to implement every aspect of their game plans to their maximum potential. If you want to make it sound like I'm saying it's all Sanchez's fault, that's not what I'm saying. I'll clarify it again. I'm not saying *he* isn't getting it done (because it's a team sport). I'm saying he's not getting it done within the confines of the coordinators' game plans. It should be common sense that a guy like Favre can help Schotty more than Sanchez, and a guy like Bradford can help Schotty more than Austin Davis.

Nice job making it sound like I'm contradicting myself in the absence of context though.

Clap. Clap.

 

[moklerman]

Now. My point, with regard to what you quoted from me (those two statements) was that Sanchez doesn't give Kelly or Schottenheimer the flexibility to implement every aspect of their game plans to their maximum potential. If you want to make it sound like I'm saying it's all Sanchez's fault, that's not what I'm saying. I'll clarify it again. I'm not saying *he* isn't getting it done (because it's a team sport). I'm saying he's not getting it done within the confines of the coordinators' game plans. It should be common sense that a guy like Favre can help Schotty more than Sanchez, and a guy like Bradford can help Schotty more than Austin Davis.

I appreciate you trying to explain yourself but I still don't see what you're saying about Sanchez. I agree that a top tier QB would give a coordinator more to work with but I don't understand what you're saying about Sanchez not getting it done within the confines of the game plans.

It's alright, you don't have to elaborate. I'm not sold on Schottenheimer and that's sort of the whole point of this thread. But I'm not sold in either direction. I don't know that he's bad and I don't know that he's good. He'll be back in 2015 and hopefully with a QB that allows us all to determine if there are problems his game plans and adjustments.