Bradford vs Foles

[LesBaker]

Im not a F0les guy (only in the sense I don't think he will be a top pocket passer). I loved Bradford, based on talent and not performance all the time. In terms of "talent" Foles is a step down, I think that is clear. But, none of that really matters.
Where I see (and I am sure this is flawed) Foles in a Flacco kind of QB. A big, physical guy who can move with a strong arm who has some holes in him game.
That could work very well. With the D the Rams should field and a good running game I think Foles will be fine. I like the "middle ground" approach to the extension he signed.
Comparing the two is kind of a mute point. They have, to me, different skill sets. I could actually see both fitting in well and both having very good productive years.

I couldn't disagree more on the part I bolded. Foles has done things in the NFL that even the BIGGEST Bradford supporters would never have expected from Sam. There is no evidence of Bradford being anything other than an average NFL talent. Bradford has never lived up to the hype of the draft slot/contract.

I know he's a fan favorite, but on the field he's been nothing special at all. Meanwhile Foles has turned in many top notch performances, even last year by the way.

 

[fearsomefour]

I couldn't disagree more on the part I bolded. Foles has done things in the NFL that even the BIGGEST Bradford supporters would never have expected from Sam. There is no evidence of Bradford being anything other than an average NFL talent. Bradford has never lived up to the hype of the draft slot/contract.

I know he's a fan favorite, but on the field he's been nothing special at all. Meanwhile Foles has turned in many top notch performances, even last year by the way.

We are defining talent two different ways.
Like I said in my post I am basing my opinion of Bradford on talent, not always performance.
Arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw balls on time into tight windows, very quick release, technique. Bradford (at his best) is superior in all of these categories. This is why he was drafted where he was, despite not playing the season before the draft. He is rarely gifted in those areas. So is Jay Cutler (minus accuracy maybe). There is more that goes into playing QB.
In terms of "the complete package" that a team would look for in a pocket QB, Bradford has the measurables.
I was speaking about talent and you are speaking about performance.

 

[Yamahopper]

Rams must like what they see in Foles. And that's all that really matters.
And I can see why the Rams moved to lock him up for a couple more years at a reasonable cap number. The real question is did the Rams feel comfortable letting him become a Fa?
Or if not happy with in house solutions have to spend another high pick next year on another QB.

Watching him he' a step down in talent from Bradford. But some things like getting the ball out when it should be thrown and having a much more liberal interpretation of what a open receiver is makes up for that.
The guy is a gamer.

Look at it this way. There's 7 billion people in the world and 20 good QB's and we have one of the 20.

 

[fearsomefour]

Look at it this way. There's 7 billion people in the world and 20 good QB's and we have one of the 20.

It really is amazing isn't it.
When you consider the amount of man hours and money spent by NFL teams trying to find and develop the QB position and how often it fails....man.

 

[LazyWinker]

Just going by what I've read. But it always seemed like Bradford came out and just dominated in practice. So that's why I'm curious what the differences are. Is he just more accurate? Does he make better decisions? Does he get the ball out quicker? I don't think it's abnormal to wonder.

I look at practice as an opportunity to try new things and refine things. I'm not worried about Foles struggling in a few practices. I don't personally know Cigs, Boras, Garcia, Weinke, and Foles, so I don't know what he's trying to do out there.

Just my impression on the camp reports so far is that Foles is pushing the limits to see what his WR/TE can do. He's working on not only learning a new offense but learning a new supporting cast. Why not push the limits when it doesn't count. This is the best time to do it. I'm not worried in the least.

I'd like to see him work on throwing the ball out of bounds when no one is open.

 

[Athos]

We are defining talent two different ways.
Like I said in my post I am basing my opinion of Bradford on talent, not always performance.
Arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw balls on time into tight windows, very quick release, technique. Bradford (at his best) is superior in all of these categories. This is why he was drafted where he was, despite not playing the season before the draft. He is rarely gifted in those areas. So is Jay Cutler (minus accuracy maybe). There is more that goes into playing QB.
In terms of "the complete package" that a team would look for in a pocket QB, Bradford has the measurables.
I was speaking about talent and you are speaking about performance.

Have to agree. There's such a large disconnect between the Bradford fans and the non-fans.

You are right about:

Performance vs. Talent.

On sheer Talent alone, Bradford is one of the most talented QBs in the game when healthy. He's got a top 15 arm or better. I also think Bradford is superior rolling out on the bootleg and throwing, accurately, on the run. Seen it way too many times.

If a healthy Sam was in Foles place in a primarily shot-gun oriented offense running up-tempo, his stats would be ridiculously good.

The thing to remember is this:

Foles HAS talent, but more importantly, has his HEALTH!

Bradford rarely had his talent and health working at the same time while a Ram.

Rams needed a healthy QB who could run the offense and see the field. We have that now. That's why we have Foles. If Sam were healthy, he'd still be here, but they just couldn't trust his knees anymore and we need to WIN NOW!

 

[LACHAMP46]

He's going up against one of the best defenses everyday.......Just going by what I've read. But it always seemed like Bradford came out and just dominated in practice. So that's why I'm curious what the differences are. Is he just more accurate? Does he make better decisions? Does he get the ball out quicker? I don't think it's abnormal to wonder.

maybe defensive LINES.....but we need to see the best defenses thingy on the field...like many say, perhaps he's trying things(?) plus the new offense, chemistry, and getting familiar with the talent. Still, if I remember football, esp. from a coaching point of view, practice means EVERYTHING...Look like shit during practice, you'd be a fool to believe you'll look good on Sunday...No, you'll look like shit.
@fearsomefour
Flacco is a good athlete, excellent arm talent, and he's probably much faster than Foles. I get the comparison due to height, but not as QB's....but all your points are well taken and spot on...He should be fine, if he doesn't struggle...I know, captain obvious for sure there....

 

[Angry Ram]

If he hadn't had such a poor year last year I wouldn't care one bit about a player in a new offence struggling his first week of camp, the fact that he's continuing his issues from last year is very concerning.

It was only poor b/c people expected him to have another 27-2 like year, which is damn near impossible. When he showed he was, you know, a QB that makes mistakes (like any other QB) he suddenly wasn't good. Amazing how perception can change.

 

[LesBaker]

We are defining talent two different ways.
Like I said in my post I am basing my opinion of Bradford on talent, not always performance.
Arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw balls on time into tight windows, very quick release, technique. Bradford (at his best) is superior in all of these categories. This is why he was drafted where he was, despite not playing the season before the draft. He is rarely gifted in those areas. So is Jay Cutler (minus accuracy maybe). There is more that goes into playing QB.
In terms of "the complete package" that a team would look for in a pocket QB, Bradford has the measurables.
I was speaking about talent and you are speaking about performance.

You are talking about the college Bradford, I'm talking about the NFL Bradford.

At best in the NFL his talent and performance has been average in each of those categories and below average in accuracy.

He was drafted by a QB desperate team hoping his promise would work out. Like a lot of QB's drafted in the top or with the #1 overall he didn't play as well in the NFL as he did in college. He had excellent college ability and skills. He (to date) has not demonstrated that same ability or talent in the NFL.

 

[blue4]

Amazing how perception can change.

I was thinking the same thing, but for another reason. We had a thread on here not too long ago about Foles the Eagles QB and it looked decidedly less glowing than Foles the Ram. However, in a ball control offense, who knows. This is about the age when a QB puts it together and has a career year. I think this year in camp I'm just going to sip the kool aid instead of the full on kool aid guzzling I've done the last couple of years.

 

[LesBaker]

Rams must like what they see in Foles. And that's all that really matters.
And I can see why the Rams moved to lock him up for a couple more years at a reasonable cap number. The real question is did the Rams feel comfortable letting him become a Fa?
Or if not happy with in house solutions have to spend another high pick next year on another QB.

Watching him he' a step down in talent from Bradford. But some things like getting the ball out when it should be thrown and having a much more liberal interpretation of what a open receiver is makes up for that.
The guy is a gamer.

Look at it this way. There's 7 billion people in the world and 20 good QB's and we have one of the 20.

Yes for sure on that. I know the term is "throwing a WR open" but I've always just considered it anticipation............well and understanding that the window is small in the NFL and you have to get the ball in there and let the guy make the catch. Sometimes guys are TOO confident in their arm and they throw a lot of INT's because of it. I don't see that in him.

This is what the Rams have been missing..........this trade put this team on the path back. This FO deserves a ton of credit. They aren't perfect but in the NFL nobody is..........and IMO they have done a fantastic job putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

[blue4]

You are talking about the college Bradford, I'm talking about the NFL Bradford.

At best in the NFL his talent and performance has been average in each of those categories and below average in accuracy.

He was drafted by a QB desperate team hoping his promise would work out. Like a lot of QB's drafted in the top or with the #1 overall he didn't play as well in the NFL as he did in college. He had excellent college ability and skills. He (to date) has not demonstrated that same ability or talent in the NFL.

You don't lose base level quick release, accuracy, and arm strength going from college to pros. Those are the things you can't teach. I think he showed plenty of all of those things when his team played ok, and his coach wasn't bumbling around a game plan like a damned fool, or when he wasn't getting hurt. We've been giving Fisher a pass on the losing records because of the team he inherited, so I tend to give Sam a pass somewhat for having to play on those teams.

 

[V3]

Just going by what I've read. But it always seemed like Bradford came out and just dominated in practice. So that's why I'm curious what the differences are. Is he just more accurate? Does he make better decisions? Does he get the ball out quicker? I don't think it's abnormal to wonder.

IMO, Bradford is the type of QB that is REALLY good if he has perfect protection. QB's have perfect protection in training camp since they wear the red jersey. Once he started getting hit in real games, though, his performance took a nose dive. Yes, it's like that for all QBs but some QBs struggle with it more than others. I think Bradford is one of those types of QBs. I'm sure all the hits and injuries he took probably played a big part in that. Bradford needed to go to a team that already had an elite O-line established.

 

[RAGRam]

It was only poor b/c people expected him to have another 27-2 like year, which is damn near impossible. When he showed he was, you know, a QB that makes mistakes (like any other QB) he suddenly wasn't good. Amazing how perception can change.

27-2 is damn near impossible, top 25 is pretty reasonable, the fact that he didn't even live up to that lower expectation is the reason I used the word "poor".

 

[Yamahopper]

It really is amazing isn't it.
When you consider the amount of man hours and money spent by NFL teams trying to find and develop the QB position and how often it fails....man.

It is kinda mind boggling. I'm sure a lot of other athletes in the NFL could have if they would have been put the QB position from the beginning. Or players in other sports. Maybe the best QB ever was an accountant in Des Moines who never touched a ball.

It takes three simple things.
Physical talent.
Brains
And the abilities to make the right decisions instantaneously repeatedly while being assaulted by very large men

 

[Athos]

And the abilities to make the right decisions instantaneously repeatedly while being assaulted by very large men

That point is what separates the mediocre to good QBs from the elite.

Personally, before all his injuries, I'd have liked to see Sam in a Lions shotgun O or hell, Kelly before all the injuries with the talent required for that Offense. I like he'd have killed it in the NFL. Instead he got drafted by a really really bad offensive team.

 

[LesBaker]

You don't lose base level quick release, accuracy, and arm strength going from college to pros. Those are the things you can't teach. I think he showed plenty of all of those things when his team played ok, and his coach wasn't bumbling around a game plan like a damned fool, or when he wasn't getting hurt. We've been giving Fisher a pass on the losing records because of the team he inherited, so I tend to give Sam a pass somewhat for having to play on those teams.

He clearly didn't perform as well when it comes to accuracy from college to the pros. You don't "lose" that as a player, I see what you are saying now.

What he lost was wide open receivers and very simple defensive schemes. Going to the pros QB's no longer see guys running free and no defender within several feet. Also remember Bradford only had to read half the field, the half his coaches signaled to him from the sideline to go to.

When you change the dynamics like that QB's sometimes do complete fewer passes, and Bradford did that. College schemes have led a lot of HC's and GM's to make picks that don't turn out that well in the NFL. Every QB taken in the top fwe picks is always destined to stardom when they are selected. About one in 4 make a pro bowl. Many bust out totally, some become good, some become average. It isn't because they became "worse" when they went to the NFL it's that they can't play as well against better defenses.

Bradford's limitations have been pretty clear for a long time. And IMO one of the biggest fallacies surrounding him is his accuracy. He's average at best. Yeah once in awhile he uncorked a perfect pass but so did Kyle Orton.

 

[LesBaker]

You don't lose base level quick release, accuracy, and arm strength going from college to pros. Those are the things you can't teach. I think he showed plenty of all of those things when his team played ok, and his coach wasn't bumbling around a game plan like a damned fool, or when he wasn't getting hurt. We've been giving Fisher a pass on the losing records because of the team he inherited, so I tend to give Sam a pass somewhat for having to play on those teams.

He clearly didn't perform as well when it comes to accuracy from college to the pros. You don't "lose" that as a player, I see what you are saying now.

What he lost was wide open receivers and very simple defensive schemes. Going to the pros QB's no longer see guys running free and no defender within several feet. Also remember Bradford only had to read half the field, the half his coaches signaled to him from the sideline to go to.

When you change the dynamics like that QB's sometimes do complete fewer passes, and Bradford did that. College schemes have led a lot of HC's and GM's to make picks that don't turn out that well in the NFL. Every QB taken in the top fwe picks is always destined to stardom when they are selected. About one in 4 make a pro bowl. Many bust out totally, some become good, some become average. It isn't because they became "worse" when they went to the NFL it's that they can't play as well against better defenses.

Bradford's limitations have been pretty clear for a long time. And IMO one of the biggest fallacies surrounding him is his accuracy. He's average at best. Yeah once in awhile he uncorked a perfect pass but so did Kyle Orton.

 

[LesBaker]

That point is what separates the mediocre to good QBs from the elite.

Warner summed it up best, and nobody was braver in the pocket, he had some equals, but nobody bested him.

"You're going to get hit anyway".

 

[Stranger]

You don't lose base level quick release, accuracy, and arm strength going from college to pros. Those are the things you can't teach. I think he showed plenty of all of those things when his team played ok, and his coach wasn't bumbling around a game plan like a damned fool, or when he wasn't getting hurt. We've been giving Fisher a pass on the losing records because of the team he inherited, so I tend to give Sam a pass somewhat for having to play on those teams.

Would you try making your piont another way. Maybe I'm suffering from brain fog this AM, but I don't get what you are saying. But I think I want to undestand it

 

[jrry32]

Nick Foles is the Rams' QB now. I'm not concerned with how Bradford looked in the past. I'm not concerned with how Foles looks now. I'll start worrying when the real games start. It's a new OC and Foles is coming from a completely different system and team. Let him get settled before worrying. Worrying doesn't help with anything. Just relax. We can't lose a real game for another month.

People know my opinion of Foles. But I think he's a good enough QB to get us to the playoffs if he's healthy. However, I have to disagree with the Flacco comparison. Foles doesn't have that type of arm.