Bills’ Eric Wood blames ESPN for lack of interest in Michael Sam

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Thordaddy

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I agree totally. All I'm saying is we can't just assume that it's a fact that that's why he's not signed.
My point about Westbrook was made because people were saying Sam was deserving of a 3rd round pick but dropped only because of being gay. I think it's clear that 3rd to 5th round would have been a real reach pick.

I once had an employee who had to work Sundays 12 weeks a year ,before the 6th week he'd called in sick on Sunday twice but seemed fine on Monday.
I told him that statistically speaking something more than random chance was occurring and that whatever he was doing to effect the chances of him being sick on Sunday had to stop or we wouldn't be working together.
That's sort of how I see this,no you can't prove an assumption but there's SOMETHING more than random chance going on here so since I'm just message board guy ,I don't feel much guilt.
As far as Westbrook goes,given the choice I take Westbrook, but people are also saying Westbrook was worthy of a third,so by " Thor's Associative Principle" the fact that they were neck and neck,or so it has been near universally reported ,I think 4th or 5th for Sam is not a reach,not a third but 4 or 5 yeah I can see it
 

blue4

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I respectfully and vigorously disagree with that sentiment. You presume that Ethan Westbrooks wasn't drafted because no team saw enough talent in him to be drafted.

However, that's not the case at all. His talent level indicated a much higher grade. The issue for him was his bouncing around, penchant for penalties, inconsistent production and other red flags. His TALENT wasn't at issue. It's why the Rams essentially paid him $50k to come in via $20k in signing bonus and $30k in guaranteed salary. They clearly thought VERY highly of him, but you just don't draft a drifter. The guy didn't look like he could stick to anything. So, you pick him up as a UDFA and see if he can play up to his talent. Turns out under Coach Waufle, he did.

Now, watching Westbrooks play, are you REALLY going to tell me that he's a UDFA level talent? Or is it more accurate that other factors like red flags, multiple schools, too many penalties and inconsistent production as well as Division II school bias worked against him?

I'm pretty sure based on how well Westbrooks played that we all have SEEN that he's not some UDFA scrub who just "figured it all out all of a sudden". He was the 2012 Div II DPOY. That's for all of Div II. So, he's not exactly an unknown guy or a guy without accolade or skill.

Guys are drafted where they are drafted for any number of reasons. Certain positions are over and underdrafted. Guys on winning Div I teams get over drafted all the time. Zac Stacy led the SEC in rushing (from Vandy, no less!!!) and went in the 5th round. How does that happen? He was a damn STEAL in the 5th. I know we're not gonna debate that Zac Stacy was a 5th round talent and was the right value there. He was really undervalued and thus underdrafted. It happens all the time.

So, no, I reject categorically that there is a linear correlation between pure talent and draft position. That ignores position bias and team need as well as evaluator error. Further, I reject categorically that because BOTH players the Rams picked were grossly underdrafted that inherently means that their draft statuses were correct. All that it means is that Ethan Westbrooks played fully up to his potential and better fills the role the Rams need filled. However, if the Rams weren't already 8 deep on the DL, both would have easily made the team. I say this because we also got Aaron Donald. And really, when was the last time that any team added (or could have added) 3 players to a position of strength from one draft? I still say that Michael Sam would have been a better addition than Carrington and the very notion of Conrath on the PS??? Are they just trying to make the offense feel good?

Even still, the larger point is that based on production, as several writers have pointed out now, NO 4-3 DE remotely as productive as Michael Sam isn't on a team or a PS. Not one. He's the anomaly. Others less productive. Plenty significantly less. Very few had more production. Only 5 others with about the same production aren't on a team and all of them spent at least 3 years in the league, meaning they aren't PS candidates. Again, if the point of the practice squad is to develop young talent and have replacements in case of injury, don't you want the best talent there?

See, the 49ers have lost tons of defensive talent. Granted, they run a 3-4, but Aldon Smith is a DPR. He's as much of a linebacker as Sam Bradford. With Navarro Bowman going down and a D that's been awful generous this preseason, you'd think someone like Sam might be worth a look in that DPR role... Nope. Apparently, they can take a 4-3 DE who's been misused for years as a 3-4 DE and put him at NT (only to see him lost for the season with a knee), but they can't see using a DPR as a.....wait for it...DPR? M'kay...

Lastly, I'm not accusing "others" of being homophobic. I, personally, am being VERY CLEAR about my accusations with respect to homophobia or the lesser variations of it that still deny Michael Sam his equal opportunity. I'm not accusing any posters. YES, absolutely, I accuse the 31 teams in the NFL that are not the St. Louis Rams. Now, that accusation is mitigated...somewhat...for teams that run a 3-4, but as I noted with SF, if they use a DPR, he could potentially fill that role. Not traditional LB, but the LT/DPR role in a 3-4... he might be able to do that. For teams that run a 4-3, there's no excuse at all... not to at least LOOK.

I simply refuse to believe that out of the 320 jobs that became available on practice squads across the league that there wasn't room for one of the most productive defensive players in the preseason at a highly valued position no less.

Last...Lastly... as for the 3rd to 5th round pick being a reach....um, not at all... http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutd...m-70-spots-draft-rankings-173605773--nfl.html

the article posted about the Rob Rang rankings from Feb 10, 2014 which dropped him from the 90th ranked prospect to 160th ranked prospect after the announcement. Meaning BEFORE the announcement, CBSSports.com had him ranked at 90 and NFLDraftscout.com had him ranked at 110. Both rank him in the 3rd to 4th round range pre-announcement. I was very involved in this draft and that is very consistent with other sites. So to say that a 3rd to 5th round pick is a stretch is simply wrong. He was a totally known commodity INCLUDING being gay when he won the SEC co-DPOY and the NFL scouts knew he was gay when they scouted and ranked him where they did.

That's a lot of typing. Just two things. Conrath is on the PS because of ankle injuries to Brockers and Langford, Donald being a rookie, and Carrington's inconsistencies. Nothing to do with Sam. Plus he is 300 lbs on a team with only 3 300 lb DTs in a running division.

You say there is no excuse not for teams to at least look at Sam. This is exactly what I have been talking about. You have no proof besides your emotional attachment to say that. It's absurd to think that no one has looked at him.
 

Mackeyser

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Well, that's the best explanation for Conrath I've heard. Dammit. Doesn't make me feel one BIT better, but it at least explains it.

As for Sam, it's pretty simple. I really don't think most teams are even looking at him. I think most teams are worried about the specter of "distraction" and saw that abomination of a piece on ESPN and that was it. But will any of that matter?

I don't think so. The proof will be the simple matter of whether or not Michael Sam is employed by an NFL team as a player some time this year.

I'd wager he will not. Not at any time.

I think he would be an improvement for some teams who have injuries. I think he'd be an upgrade for some team's active rosters. I think other guys who were cut and even guys who were out of the league will get calls back... but Michael Sam won't even get a sniff. I do NOT believe he has a "future" in the NFL. At least not this year. And unless the Rams bring him back to camp next year, I expect that will end his time in professional football unless he goes to Canada. That said, the NFL has set a horrible precedent and that is that being up front will hurt you and cost you, so stay in the closet, especially if you're not an undeniable #1 overall pick.

I think that's how we'll know no one looked. It will come out when people think it's safe to talk that they never really considered him. Eventually, people will talk.

Now, I will admit, I was wrong. I thought he wouldn't be drafted because of the NFL and if it weren't for Jeff Fisher, I'd have been right. However, other than Jeff Fisher being Jeff Fisher, the rest of the league is being exactly as I expected them to be. I fully expected exactly ZERO teams to offer Sam a camp invite (although teams would leak to the press that they flirted with the idea before fretting horribly about the distraction of it all is if football players were debutantes) and once released by the Rams? Par for the course... Nothing, nathan, nada...

Will I be right about the season? I dunno. I think it highly unlikely that as the season progresses that with injuries and roster moves that no team will have any use for Michael Sam. But that's my bet... that's exactly what will happen. Guys who have no business getting called back will be called back over him and we'll even see an angry article or two about it.

And, it'll both be true what the article says and that it should be said and that the very article itself won't help and may hinder Michael Sam because...the NFL.

I'd love to be wrong about this and find out that Michael Sam has found a home in the NFL reasonably soon.

But, unfortunately, I don't think I'm gonna be wrong and sadly, for all the wrong reasons...
 

Memphis Ram

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@Mackeyser
I "pigeonhole" Sam as a LDE as that's where he has spent the majority of time and where I saw him have the majority of his success. And in that Wide 9 look. It's no different than Leonard Little who I figured would be the first name someone would come up with on the size issue. Of course, he was BY FAR a better athlete and player even though his college numbers might not compare to Sam's. And the Rams were willing to play him out wide at LDE. Again, not all Defensive Coordinators like to do so. And I wouldn't call Westbrooks or Hayes just LDE, because I've seen both play well at a high level at other positions. I haven't seen Sam do so. Filling a position and playing it well are too different things altogether. Brockers could fill in at DE in a 4-3. But, that not going to make me consider him more than a DT in a 4-3 defense.

And whether we like it or not, some teams/coaches do have size preferences for their positions. It's always been that way. Even the Rams have at times over the years. Their scouts even given templates for what they are looking for out in the field.

Nobody knows for sure where any of these kids would have been drafted outside of the to usual top 5 or so players. How many tweeners who struggled in LB drills and run around 4.9/40 at the combine have gone earlier than the 3rd day of the draft over the years?

Preseason production is nice, but these teams take a look at the competition, too. These guys aren't going against the same players. (BTW, the Browns STARTING RT is and has been a swinging gate. Hopefully you don't really believe that his backup is better?)

And yes, with 32 different teams with 32 different draft boards/opinions it is possible for teams to view other players higher than Sam. It happens every freaking year where some player many have never heard of is drafted ahead of a productive more popular player. Nothing new. Nothing to see here. It's all about NFL projection. Some players are viewed as to being able to add weight and remain as athletic and some are not viewed in the same light. And doing so at 6-4 maybe be viewed better than doing so at 6-2.

Let's give it a rest. The guy is gone. He's no longer a Rams. I'm rooting for him, until he puts that Rams uniform back on, my interest is wanning.
 

blue4

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I'd wager some ROD money (if I knew how) that he'll have a NFL job, practice squad or otherwise, by the start of wk 4. PROVIDED he doesn't elect to take a job in the CFL.
 

blue4

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I think we also should remember that thanks to CoachO and others we probably know a lot more about Michael Sam than most NFL GMs. We read about what he did in camp everyday, and who he did it against and how good THAT guy is. A GM only has the 4 games. I imagine those games probably look a little different in that context, because the GM is much more familiar with the opposing teams Olineman then we are from previous drafts. Just a final thought.
 

Mackeyser

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@blue4 if there's a sportsbook thing, I'll put some ROD bucks on that. By week 4? I'd love to see that, but I just have no faith in the NFL at this point. Unless something changes, I truly don't believe Michael Sam will play another down in the NFL. I'd love to be wrong about that. I just don't think I will be.

@Memphis Ram Yeah, we can give it a rest. We're just not remotely going to agree on Michael Sam's evaluation, nor are we going to agree on the league's reaction to him. Also, Michael Sam ran a 4.65 at his Pro Day and his film from his entire senior year indicates that his game speed is that of a 4.65 player. He showed closing speed. That's pretty important. He had a really crappy Combine and a really good Pro day. And I can usually tell if someone is evaluating the whole Michael Sam or looking to discount him if they ONLY know his Combine numbers or they know ALL his numbers. So I just think we're coming at this from entirely different places.

I think just rooting for him is a flat waste of time because... the NFL. Ask Mike Priefer. Pretty sure he's still employed in the NFL. Pretty sure his views haven't changed, just he's really sure he's not to share them with anyone, anymore, ever. I'd like to root for Michael Sam because...well, he's earned it based on merit and...the next guy. The next guy should be able to be open and it shouldn't matter. Unfortunately, the narrative thus far is "don't come out. Teams downgrade you and slam you in the media through hack writers who sell articles for access" What was the point of this whole charade if everyone has to go through it all again? So ESPN can say the phrase "first openly gay" another ten thousand times? Cuz, I mean, technically, no openly gay athlete has played in the NFL. They haven't cracked THAT egg, yet.

I mean, it's not like I don't realize the intricacies of the NFL. It's part of why I'm attracted to it. It's part of why the off-season actually gets more of my attention on a day-to-day basis than during the season. I hear you about Lovie liking short DTs and have written about Fisher liking tall DTs which is why the Donald pick surprised me. I get why "player fit" can be tricky. But it's not so arcane that there's no room for talent and that's the "tastes great" "less filling" part of this. Except I say "there's always room for talent" and you say "maybe he's not a fit".... "talent" "fit"... and so...yeah.
You're right. That's not gonna go anywhere.

I guess it's like this. There are two kinds of people out there. *IF* people and *HOW* people. When something comes along that may be a challenge, the *IF* people question *IF* it can be done whereas the *HOW* people question *HOW* it is going to be done. I really thought the NFL had turned a corner and embraced *HOW* when Michael Sam was drafted.

And that's my fault. The league, other than Fisher, was *IF* all along. I still feel let down, but only because I dared to believe the league could be better than the mess it's been for so long.
 

blue4

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@blue4 if there's a sportsbook thing, I'll put some ROD bucks on that. By week 4? I'd love to see that, but I just have no faith in the NFL at this point. Unless something changes, I truly don't believe Michael Sam will play another down in the NFL. I'd love to be wrong about that. I just don't think I will be.

@Memphis Ram Yeah, we can give it a rest. We're just not remotely going to agree on Michael Sam's evaluation, nor are we going to agree on the league's reaction to him. Also, Michael Sam ran a 4.65 at his Pro Day and his film from his entire senior year indicates that his game speed is that of a 4.65 player. He showed closing speed. That's pretty important. He had a really crappy Combine and a really good Pro day. And I can usually tell if someone is evaluating the whole Michael Sam or looking to discount him if they ONLY know his Combine numbers or they know ALL his numbers. So I just think we're coming at this from entirely different places.

I think just rooting for him is a flat waste of time because... the NFL. Ask Mike Priefer. Pretty sure he's still employed in the NFL. Pretty sure his views haven't changed, just he's really sure he's not to share them with anyone, anymore, ever. I'd like to root for Michael Sam because...well, he's earned it based on merit and...the next guy. The next guy should be able to be open and it shouldn't matter. Unfortunately, the narrative thus far is "don't come out. Teams downgrade you and slam you in the media through hack writers who sell articles for access" What was the point of this whole charade if everyone has to go through it all again? So ESPN can say the phrase "first openly gay" another ten thousand times? Cuz, I mean, technically, no openly gay athlete has played in the NFL. They haven't cracked THAT egg, yet.

I mean, it's not like I don't realize the intricacies of the NFL. It's part of why I'm attracted to it. It's part of why the off-season actually gets more of my attention on a day-to-day basis than during the season. I hear you about Lovie liking short DTs and have written about Fisher liking tall DTs which is why the Donald pick surprised me. I get why "player fit" can be tricky. But it's not so arcane that there's no room for talent and that's the "tastes great" "less filling" part of this. Except I say "there's always room for talent" and you say "maybe he's not a fit".... "talent" "fit"... and so...yeah.
You're right. That's not gonna go anywhere.

I guess it's like this. There are two kinds of people out there. *IF* people and *HOW* people. When something comes along that may be a challenge, the *IF* people question *IF* it can be done whereas the *HOW* people question *HOW* it is going to be done. I really thought the NFL had turned a corner and embraced *HOW* when Michael Sam was drafted.

And that's my fault. The league, other than Fisher, was *IF* all along. I still feel let down, but only because I dared to believe the league could be better than the mess it's been for so long.

Do you just start a thread in sportsbook then? Might be cool to do that.

I have $11,636.04. I'll bet the .04:ROFLMAO::cry::ROFLMAO:
No seriously, I'd go all in. I'm sure with over a mil you're shaking in your boots.:eek:
 

Mackeyser

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Well, I lost a million betting Sam would make the 53 man roster...
 

Adrian

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I can't believe Jerry Jones hasn't signed him. They're in need of help (loss of D. Ware) and jerry could exploit the situation financially as only jerry jones would do
 

Big Willie

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Tony Dungy was vilified for his comments, and now it's clear to me that all NFL teams feel the same. ESPN just served to remind team management of the damage the media could have in destroying a team's chemistry.
 

rams2050

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Um, it was a televised report. Verbal. Perhaps you haven't seen or heard it?
No, I didn't. I guess when I read it was an ESPN reporter I just thought it had been posted on their site. Sorry about that. I was wrong.
 

Angry Ram

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Tony Dungy was vilified for his comments, and now it's clear to me that all NFL teams feel the same. ESPN just served to remind team management of the damage the media could have in destroying a team's chemistry.

Yeah it's a big shame. The party should've been over a week after the draft ended. But no. It was the media that kept badgering on and on about him. Ironic, if you think about it. He was only a distraction b/c the media kept asking if he was a distraction.
 

Thordaddy

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Tony Dungy was vilified for his comments, and now it's clear to me that all NFL teams feel the same. ESPN just served to remind team management of the damage the media could have in destroying a team's chemistry.
That's a good point ,Mike Sam would be best off if the press would quit making him a cause celeb,but their careers so often depend on if it bleeds it leads ,they won't pass on any possible stroy.
 

Memphis Ram

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I have no idea who Mike Priefer is, but playing in the NFL is a privilege and not a right.

And over the years there have been plenty of highly awarded players who put up big numbers, but were still drafted late and/or released that never made it on a team's practice squad for long, if at all. Why? College production is just one part of the player evaluation process. Another factor is how these guys project to the league. Sure, it has led to some teams selecting what turns out to be a bust over a solid prospect, but physical freakdom is still in high demand when making such projections. And it's been happening for years.

Again, I'm a Tiger fan. But, I can honestly say that with the exception of his hustle, I didn't see anything special in Michael Sam that would lead me to believe that he projected nicely to the NFL. To me, he looked like a situational pass rushing DE, at best. And one that wasn't nearly as effective from RDE where most of these types play in the NFL. So if I didn't and don't see it, I find it hard to put all of the NFL teams under the same umbrella of using his sexual orientation/media to stay away from him (while I'm sure some 4-3 have). IMO, there's no doubt in my mind that if he were like Clowney or even had the measurables of his teammate Ealy and played RE, he would have been a higher selection and perhaps stood a better chance at being on someone's practice squad by now.
 

CodeMonkey

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Andy Reid strikes me as a guy, like Fish, who'd not care about the circus. Not sure their Dline makup though. I too was surprised to see Dallas let him clear waivers
 

CodeMonkey

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BB is another coach in my mind who would not care. I would say though that he tends to look for utility type players and Sam isn't that.
 

CodeMonkey

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Great discourse in this thread by the way. Go ROD!!!!!