Adrian Peterson Arrested.

[raised_fisT]

When I think of kids of the TIME-OUT era , I think of Justin Bieber.

It needs to be gametime already....

 

[Thordaddy]

Creating this kind of fear in a young mind releases chemicals in the brain that can cause permanent brain damage, affecting memory and cognitive function.

Well FWIW fear is a natural and highly utilitarian emotion in fact it is by most accounts a sign of intelligence, and both my boys scored high enough on the ACT to get scholarships ,as did I on the tests on cumulative knowledge ,Minn Multi Phasic and never ever scored below 95 percentile on any tests for those things .

Of the two forms of motivation i understand fear is less effective long term and so should be used sparingly, but children who are never spanked still feel it and will generate it spontaneously so your contention of cause and effect might hold true in extreme cases but where the hell you gonna get permission to abuse kids to verify those kind of results.
Apply for a grant where you beat the fuck out of kids ?????????????????:eek:

 

[Stranger]

Well FWIW fear is a natural and highly utilitarian emotion in fact it is by most accounts a sign of intelligence, and both my boys scored high enough on the ACT to get scholarships ,as did I on the tests on cumulative knowledge ,Minn Multi Phasic and never ever scored below 95 percentile on any tests for those things .

Of the two forms of motivation i understand fear is less effective long term and so should be used sparingly, but children who are never spanked still feel it and will generate it spontaneously so your contention of cause and effect might hold true in extreme cases but where the hell you gonna get permission to abuse kids to verify those kind of results.
Apply for a grant where you beat the freak out of kids ?????????????????:eek:

Fear at extreme level releases a cocktail of chemicals. That's not disputable. And this changes brain biology, sometimes permanently.

My intent was just to make this point, not to judge you.

 

[RamzFanz]

Vikings have stated they may never play AP again. It's undecided.

 

[AnarchyRam]

First of all the phrase "a lot of you" is really painting with a broad brush and is totally untrue from what I've read in this thread. And yes, I've read every post. And secondly the statement "the majority of kids today are still being spanked" is unprovable. How do you know that?

Fair enough but in studies it seems clear that more than half of the kids today are "spanked". I would pull up links but I'm on my ipad. Lol

 

[Prime Time]

Fair enough but in studies it seems clear that more than half of the kids today are "spanked". I would pull up links but I'm on my ipad. Lol

I doubt that most parents would admit they do that so the amount who spank their kids may be even higher than indicated in those studies.

My son was always small and frail and I just couldn't bring myself to hit him(not saying that this makes me any better of a parent) but I just couldn't do it. My son is now 23 and in a Masters program at Northridge in LA. He's a Redskins fan however. Hmm...maybe I should have spanked him.

 

[fearsomefour]

Why is it better to hit a young child than to hit a grown woman? And the wife was being disciplined as well... There's no excuse for assaulting anyone, let alone children and your description of a few swats is not what often happens. Most parents who spank do it out of anger and frustration and people on forums always pretend like it's done in some sweet loving way. I've almost never seen that in my entire life. It's almost always done in anger. And it's not a few light swats either.. but the comparison is exactly the same. Wife beating used to be acceptable in some cultures and I hope spanking also becomes unacceptable over time.

Then finally, a lot of you seem to be under the impression that kids are rude and out of control because they're not being spanked enough, yet the majority of kids today are still being spanked.

I never said it was better for any type of person to be hit. One is legal and one is not. Whether they both should be illegal is up for debate, but, I never said one was "better" than another.
You make big generalizations then use your experience of what you have seen as evidence. I have seen plenty of times a swat was just a swat.
Sadly, there are still plenty of societies in the world where someone beating their wife is totally accepted. Because of our system of law what is or is not accepted as fine in other societies does not apply here.
I never said kids are rude or out of control because of lack of physical punishment....I for one dont believe that at all.

 

[fearsomefour]

I just realised this was a 4 year old. That's freaking crazy.

Yeah, pretty disturbing.

 

[fearsomefour]

Creating this kind of fear in a young mind releases chemicals in the brain that can cause permanent brain damage, affecting memory and cognitive function.

What level of chemical? What level of violence, fear, shock ect?
What your saying is true, however, this has been implied in children suffering severe trauma and systematic abuse. Is this the case here? Who knows.

 

[Stranger]

Fair enough but in studies it seems clear that more than half of the kids today are "spanked". I would pull up links but I'm on my ipad. Lol

And walk around any american city and just look at the people

 

[Stranger]

What level of chemical? What level of violence, fear, shock ect?
What your saying is true, however, this has been implied in children suffering severe trauma and systematic abuse. Is this the case here? Who knows.

I'll dig out my research. But it's on a per incidence basis. Of course, the longer and more severe, the deeper the impact.

 

[fearsomefour]

I'll dig out my research. But it's on a per incidence basis. Of course, the longer and more severe, the deeper the impact.

That's cool, I don't need the research. I'm familiar enough with it having worked with abused kids before (just in a voluntary basis).
It's sad.

 

[Stranger]

That's cool, I don't need the research. I'm familiar enough with it having worked with abused kids before (just in a voluntary basis).
It's sad.

What did you see in abused kids? I'm curious.

 

[fearsomefour]

What did you see in abused kids? I'm curious.

Well, it was interesting. Both boys, one aged 11 or so when I started working with him, the other older. The first boy was mature for his age. He had seen a lot in a short period of time and was sort of wise beyond his years. The second was very immature for his age. The first boy was angry and could be aggressive and violent, although that was limited to peers and not adults. The second boy was not aggressive or violent at all, but, was very needy in an emotional way. If one was to "measure" the level of abuse suffered the first boy suffered less but was much angrier. The second boy suffered pretty profound abuse (father in prison for, among other things, trying to kill him) but did not have anger issues at all. The first boy was self confident and very assured in most ways. The second very insecure and had very much a victim mentality, which was sort of encouraged by his mother. They both carried emotional baggage from their experience certainly. But it was interesting how differently those were manifested and displayed. It really made me wonder about the old nature vs nurture thing. I wondered about kids in the same family, whether the situation is terrible or ok or great, you often get very different outcomes from each kid. Hard to know for sure.
I ended up with a very good and deep connection with the first boy, he eventually became a part of our family on a part time basis (splitting time between our home and his mothers). The second boy I never really connected with. I found it hard to deal with his "victim" mentality, but, I really tried to display great patience with him. I considered it a failing on my part that I was not able to have a more profound effect with him. I dont think he was ready to accept someone caring about him, not able to accept trust. He was not ready to hear honesty either.
I am not a professional by any means. It seemed to me that the boys both carried scars of course. They were very different. I dont know about cognitive function or effects in that regard. Neither was a great student, but, that is to be expected really. One thing the boys carried with them was a deep sadness. They would not express it directly but it was there. The first boy would lash out (I really believe violence in males is related a lot to sadness/depression), the second would internalize a lot of stuff and was manipulative. The survival instinct is strong and emotionally we do what we need to to survive.
Also, being old enough to know on an intellectual level that their experiences and families were not "normal" caused some social anxiety.
Im not sure if that answers your question at all. The biggest thing I saw with these boys was sadness, a lot of sadness in them.

 

[Stranger]

Well, it was interesting. Both boys, one aged 11 or so when I started working with him, the other older. The first boy was mature for his age. He had seen a lot in a short period of time and was sort of wise beyond his years. The second was very immature for his age. The first boy was angry and could be aggressive and violent, although that was limited to peers and not adults. The second boy was not aggressive or violent at all, but, was very needy in an emotional way. If one was to "measure" the level of abuse suffered the first boy suffered less but was much angrier. The second boy suffered pretty profound abuse (father in prison for, among other things, trying to kill him) but did not have anger issues at all. The first boy was self confident and very assured in most ways. The second very insecure and had very much a victim mentality, which was sort of encouraged by his mother. They both carried emotional baggage from their experience certainly. But it was interesting how differently those were manifested and displayed. It really made me wonder about the old nature vs nurture thing. I wondered about kids in the same family, whether the situation is terrible or ok or great, you often get very different outcomes from each kid. Hard to know for sure.
I ended up with a very good and deep connection with the first boy, he eventually became a part of our family on a part time basis (splitting time between our home and his mothers). The second boy I never really connected with. I found it hard to deal with his "victim" mentality, but, I really tried to display great patience with him. I considered it a failing on my part that I was not able to have a more profound effect with him. I dont think he was ready to accept someone caring about him, not able to accept trust. He was not ready to hear honesty either.
I am not a professional by any means. It seemed to me that the boys both carried scars of course. They were very different. I dont know about cognitive function or effects in that regard. Neither was a great student, but, that is to be expected really. One thing the boys carried with them was a deep sadness. They would not express it directly but it was there. The first boy would lash out (I really believe violence in males is related a lot to sadness/depression), the second would internalize a lot of stuff and was manipulative. The survival instinct is strong and emotionally we do what we need to to survive.
Also, being old enough to know on an intellectual level that their experiences and families were not "normal" caused some social anxiety.
Im not sure if that answers your question at all. The biggest thing I saw with these boys was sadness, a lot of sadness in them.

Wow, thanks so very much for that. Amazing to me that you volunteered for this kind of work. I'm not sure I'd have the patience or the tolerance for it.

I really feel for these boys. It's so sad to see such young lives to dramatically affected, and damaged, by the adults in their lives. They really don't have much of a chance in life. And it takes great intestinal fortitude to recognize ones own issues and address them. And if if this can be achieved, it can take decades.

FYI... The lack of trust that you noticed in the 2nd boy is sometimes causes by severe neglect. Even as a baby, if one's basic needs are not attended to they can develop severe mistrust. So, if he was left to cry for long periods, or his diaper wasn't changed regularly, or he wasn't fed when he was hungry, the child can learn to be distrustful of other humans.

If the kids were beaten, that will send the neural processes to the rear of the brain, where we have our sort-of caveman portion of the brain. This is where we deal with fright or flight. And it bypasses the front part of the brain, where we perform rational logical analysis. What happens is the brain sends signal to the rear of the brain, because this is a very fast acting response mechanism. When the human recognizes this patterns again, they simply respond without even knowing what they are doing. This might explain any "irrational" outbursts you may have witnessed. As they would have been rear brain responses.

If the beatings were really severe, the brain disassociates, and can actually split in order to hide the horrible acts. This is called DIDS or disassociative identity disorder. Sometime patients like this get diagnose as schizoid. In this situation, you'll actually witness multiple personalities in the victim, which is done to bury the hurt, or the neural networks associated with abuse.

 

[fearsomefour]

Wow, thanks so very much for that. Amazing to me that you volunteered for this kind of work. I'm not sure I'd have the patience or the tolerance for it.

I really feel for these boys. It's so sad to see such young lives to dramatically affected, and damaged, by the adults in their lives. They really don't have much of a chance in life. And it takes great intestinal fortitude to recognize ones own issues and address them. And if if this can be achieved, it can take decades.

FYI... The lack of trust that you noticed in the 2nd boy is sometimes causes by severe neglect. Even as a baby, if one's basic needs are not attended to they can develop severe mistrust. So, if he was left to cry for long periods, or his diaper wasn't changed regularly, or he wasn't fed when he was hungry, the child can learn to be distrustful of other humans.

If the kids were beaten, that will send the neural processes to the rear of the brain, where we have our sort-of caveman portion of the brain. This is where we deal with fright or flight. And it bypasses the front part of the brain, where we perform rational logical analysis. What happens is the brain sends signal to the rear of the brain, because this is a very fast acting response mechanism. When the human recognizes this patterns again, they simply respond without even knowing what they are doing. This might explain any "irrational" outbursts you may have witnessed. As they would have been rear brain responses.

If the beatings were really severe, the brain disassociates, and can actually split in order to hide the horrible acts. This is called DIDS or disassociative identity disorder. Sometime patients like this get diagnose as schizoid. In this situation, you'll actually witness multiple personalities in the victim, which is done to bury the hurt, or the neural networks associated with abuse.

Good info, thanks.
It is interesting the different ways someone can develop. The first boy had his nose broken a couple of times, broken hand, fingers ect. Physical abuse for sure. He was not neglected per se, had food to eat and usually a roof overhead. The second one, well, his father tried to kill him, so, nasty stuff. He was probably more neglected. The thing both households had in common was drug abuse. Just total destruction to the human soul with certain things. Boy one fell into that and was drinking/smoking by the time he was 10, boy two had a repulsion to alcohol or drugs. The mother of boy one grew up in a similar situation and fell into the same pattern with her family. Now, she finally got up the gumption to get rid of the dad and ended up homeless for a bit because of it, with the kids. She managed to work her way into a stable living situation with a good house ect. in a pretty short time. Mother of boy number two was living in a filthy hovel and couldnt provide decent food ect (although I never saw her without a smoke in her hand) for her boys. I dont know if watching his mother battle back had a positive effect on boy one or if it is more genetic buy he was a battler and wanted more. Boy number two was stuck in that mentality and for all my efforts I could not get it to change much. Boy one rejected counseling from a professional but made pretty profound and amazing change and progress over years. Boy two embraced counseling but had made limited progress. I think there can be great benefit to professional counseling, but, it is hard to know anyones (let alone a kid) motivation level.
When I brought boy one to meet my wife and son (about 3 years into this process) my wife fell in love him in pretty short order. "What a special boy." We ended up getting parental rights and, like I said before, he lived with us off and on. This is where I figured I would see any lingering behavioral issues. Other than being full of energy and very adventurous, I saw nothing serious. No violence ect. Now, if someone started with him he would not back down from a fight, he was a tough kid, but, I never saw him start with anyone. He ended up working with handicapped kids and being a tutor for some developmentally disabled kids at his high school. There were a couple of kids at his school that were home bound because of different injuries and he went out of his way to visit them and help with homework ect. He got involved in these programs on his own and didnt even tell anyone he was doing them for a while. That sort of thing was a very interesting development. To see the aggression and violence diminish and a pretty deep pool of empathy come to the fore. Boy two never changed much from what I could tell. I liked the second boy just fine, but, never felt like I could form a "real" connection with him. He may have been too damaged, who knows?
One thing that I found interesting was showing these boys a wider world. Neither had really been anywhere but their little neighborhood. Boy two had never been to a movie. Boy one asked for a haircut for his 12th birthday....like at a barber shop, never had one that wasnt done at home. So, just trying to get them to realize there is a whole big world out there and they are not limited by where they are now....worked with one, not the other.

 

[Stranger]

You're a freakin' saint, fearsome!

You really changed these kids lives. It's all about neural inputs, and it sounds like you did an amazing job rewiring the brains. I think you'll find the following book of interest. It should help you appreciate just how freakin' marvelous you are, and how import you are to these kids

http://www.amazon.com/The-Brain-That-Changes-Itself/dp/0143113100

 

[fearsomefour]

I disagree with the saint nonsense, I do appreciate the compliment however.
The book looks really interesting, I will order that for sure, thanks for the tip.
Like I said, I batted .500 with the boys I worked with. It was very educational but was sort emotionally tiring. I really bought into helping them. Committed to it. It was fun and rewarding but tiring in a way too.
To bring this conversation full circle, working so closing with boy one is why I stopped spanking my son, never did again. I never came close to anything I would remotely consider abusive or even unusual. But, that kid really made me reconsider a lot of things. Not only in how I was being a father but how I viewed people in general. Not to get too corny but sometimes we get involved in things to help out others and get helped ourselves. That boy changed me in a very good way. Made me a better person and a better father. I owe him. Thanks for the tip on the book again.
Man, I love this board. Good conversation about a touchy subject without it getting personal or rude. What a great place this is!!

 

[Stranger]

I disagree with the saint nonsense, I do appreciate the compliment however.
The book looks really interesting, I will order that for sure, thanks for the tip.
Like I said, I batted .500 with the boys I worked with. It was very educational but was sort emotionally tiring. I really bought into helping them. Committed to it. It was fun and rewarding but tiring in a way too.
To bring this conversation full circle, working so closing with boy one is why I stopped spanking my son, never did again. I never came close to anything I would remotely consider abusive or even unusual. But, that kid really made me reconsider a lot of things. Not only in how I was being a father but how I viewed people in general. Not to get too corny but sometimes we get involved in things to help out others and get helped ourselves. That boy changed me in a very good way. Made me a better person and a better father. I owe him. Thanks for the tip on the book again.
Man, I love this board. Good conversation about a touchy subject without it getting personal or rude. What a great place this is!!

You impacted both boys. Just giving each a new set of events & behaviors to perceive changed the way their brains are wired and broke-down existing network structures. Instead of reinforcing their existing behavioral patters, you gave them new one. I don't see it as batting 500 at all. Both kids benefited, and you benefited from both of them as well.

Bottom line, if more people did what you did the world would be a much better place.

 

[Angry Ram]

I have been silent on this subject, but I just want to throw my opinion out there.

When I grew up, I got "discipline" a few times, but after that I knew how to act so it never was a consistent thing. And that lies in the line b/w discipline and abuse. People are still going to believe in the old school way of discipline, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The intentions are not to be an abuser, but to get the message across: bad actions have consequences. Having said that, I do think physically striking a kid should be an absolute last resort, if at all.

Other people are gonna throw the word abuse around too much. Abuse, is IMO, something so terrible and disgusting that it endangers a child's life, causes fear to the kid, leaves much more than some temporary scars, and it occurs on a regular basis.

I work in a school system, albeit just a sub, I've worked with many 4-6 year olds. You know what the best way is to discipline a kid is? Stand your ground. Don't give in, and IMO that's what many parents do nowadays. A kid throws a tantrum the parent throws them that piece of candy, buy them something, give their phone back, whatever. Tantrums are what kids do. Let them have their tantrum and they'll get over it. They aren't gonna hold a grudge.

I think another problem is how a parent is a seen in public when their kids act up. On one hand, the public wants the kid to behave, but on the other if the parents take some sort of action (even so much as gripping the kid's arm firmly and dragging them out) it can be interpreted as abuse. Then you got instant communication so that can be reported. It's a very dicey situation.