The Undefeated: Are Jared Goff and Case Keenum that good, or was coach Jeff Fisher a QB killer?

[nighttrain]

Warford = nice

 

[Soul Surfer]

C'mon man....this is a Fisher thread....if fisher was killing Goff and Keenum...what do you think he did to their development?

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here, could you expand?

 

[Soul Surfer]

True, he had his flaws. I acknowledge them.

Random thought that just popped in my mind since I brought up Kerry Collins. Vince Young. If Jeff Fisher really was the QB "killer" everyone is making him out to be...why was Vince never able to play elsewhere? Especially under Andy Reid in Philly. Sometimes the player just can't adjust to the NFL (as was the case on Greg Robinson).

What he did in a different organization has nothing to do with what he did here.
With the Rams he was a total failure on offense.
If you don't build an offensive line and give him some receivers to get the ball out of his hands - yes - you are in actuality a "quarterback killer".

 

[Soul Surfer]

No other ex-Rams coach has been tarred and feathered like Fish......

Nor deserved it as much as he did.
He got paid over twice as much as those other guys did and they went on to continue coaching.
I don't think anybody wants Fisher for anything. JMO.

 

[LACHAMP46]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here, could you expand?

If Fisher and his coaches did something the the QB's....I'm pretty sure, every offensive player that was drafted and played under Fish and his offensive coaches, were negatively affected....from Saffold....to probably even Barrett Jones....if that makes sense....it wouldn't matter what position....I'd assume all were trained incorrectly and performed as such...especially the younger players.

When they cut Kush last season....I KNEW something was up with the coaching staff.

Look at this from today

http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-week-13-farmer-20171127-story.html

“I kept saying this: ‘I don’t want to see what happened to Jeff George happen to Jared Goff,’” Dickerson said, invoking his quarterback in Indianapolis who was drafted No. 1 overall but bounced around the NFL, never truly finding a home. “I saw what happened to Jeff with my own eyes, up close. They didn’t have anyone to coach this young kid [Goff] — no quarterback coach, no adequate offensive coordinator, no line. That was a catastrophe waiting to happen.”

Same with the linemen, wide receivers, running backs...and tight ends....total clusterfuck.

 

[Steve808]

That tricky Jeff Fisher. When he had 3rd and 7, he would fool the defense by designing the play to pick up 5 yards.

It worked well most of the time! :baghead:

 

[Soul Surfer]

Fisher couldn't build a O line for him to pass behind.
Notice that was the first thing that McVay did.

Fisher couldn't bring in any real receivers.
Notice that was the second thing that McVay did.

Fishers game plan was based on 1950s football.
No need to even comment here.

Can you say, "Night and Day"?

 

[Loyal]

Has there ever been an NFL offense that went from 32nd to possibly first in just one year? If so, I've never heard of that. That's why the criticisms have been so extreme.

As far as piling on Fisher goes, there was plenty of that after Martz, Linehan, and Spags got canned as well, in fact it still goes on to some extent. A few years down the road the Fisher lynch mob will also dissipate, as long as he doesn't get another gig as a head coach in the NFL.

I just don’t remember most of the national shows, one after the other, going after the other three, in week 12 of the season following their firing. Martz would be the closest I would imagine....It just struck me wrong this morning Iguess...I just don’t like kicking anyone when their down and can’t defend themselves, but that’s just me.

 

[Prime Time]

I just don’t remember most of the national shows, one after the other, going after the other three, in week 13 of the season following their firing. Martz would be the closest I would imagine....It just struck me wrong this morning Iguess...I just don’t like kicking anyone when their down and can’t defend themselves, but that’s just me.

That's because the media, specifically the internet, wasn't on the same 24/7 feeding frenzy for news and gossip that it is now. And again, the drop-off in quality by the offense after Martz left was gradual, whereas the improvement from Fisher to McVay is dramatic, in fact it's shocking. It makes Fisher and his OC's look totally incompetent.

I didn't want the Rams to sign Fisher in the first place. I wanted Ron Rivera. To his credit, Fisher got the Rams out of the sewer but then looked like he was mailing it in the last two seasons. The move from St. Louis to LA must have worn on him. Had Bradford stayed healthy, I'm guessing things would have gone better. But who knows?

Don't feel sorry for multi-millionaires though.

 

[Rmfnlt]

whereas the improvement from Fisher to McVay is dramatic, in fact it's shocking. It makes Fisher and his OC's look totally incompetent.

This... this... and this!
This is why I am upset with him and it will take some time to get over it... it's the "What could have been" that gnaws at me. I don't lose sleep over it, but whenever I see his name? Yeah, the blood pressure goes up.

I didn't want the Rams to sign Fisher in the first place.

Neither did I. Similar to how @LoyalRam is defending Fisher, I tried to defend Spagnuolo... at least tried to get some fans to stop with the personal insults that were allowed on another board. Then, when they hired Fisher, I was pretty much dead set against it.

Why? A few reasons:
1] I went to the Titans board and read a lot of fans comments about him. As always, grain of salt and all, but there was so much anger hurled towards him that it gave me a very uneasy feeling.
2] The pettiness I saw out of him during that scrimmage - the year after the Rams beat him in the Super Bowl. He has his guys going all out, actually trying to injure Rams players... IN A SCRIMMAGE.
That yelled character issues to me... his teams played loose and dirty. He and Williams were best buddies.
There were tons of warning signs that the man had character flaws (revenge, ethical, etc.).
3] The record itself... that no one seemed to want to review. It foretold of exactly what he gave the Rams... close to,or below .500.
Well, no one wanted to hear any of it... it wasn't that I had serious doubts about Fisher... it was that "I was bitter about how fans treated Spagnuolo".
Well, time brings many things into perspective, doesn't it?

Spagnuolo bounced around and this latest mess is probably his last stop on the coaching carousel.

Fisher turned out to be exactly what I perceived... an average (at best) head coach with character flaws (@RamDino pointed out perhaps the biggest example of his lack of class earlier in the thread). Similar stunt that he pulled in that scrimmage.

He'll never coach again either.

Fisher got the Rams out of the sewer but then looked like he was mailing it in the last two seasons.

Agree... he started out pretty well... but the flaws started to show up... the control freak thing... bad coaching hires... bad drafts... bad free agent acquisitions. By the end of year three, it was evident to me that he was clueless. Still suffered the slings and arrows, though.

Don't feel sorry for multi-millionaires though.

Yeah... his biggest worry is if he pulls a muscle counting the money.

I get where @LoyalRam is coming from... but I'm not sure it's a realistic stance, as I learned the hard way. Fans vent... it's what they do.

I won't personally attack the man, like fans on other boards insulted previous failed coaches.

But his flaws and the results are undeniable. I get it... he's gone now... but I think it takes time to move on... I think fans should be allowed that time... and the amount of time will be different for each fan. But no personal insults... be respectful. He worked hard and deserves at least that... but, the fact remains, he failed.

It's going to take some time for me... I saw it coming... I got personally attacked on a daily basis for it... my motives were assumed... and it turned out to be five painful years of expectations and let-downs.

All I can say is... I'm glad McVay is working out so well. Not only that he is a very astute head coach who seems to have a handle on how to be a real head coach... but a man I can be proud to call Head Coach of my favorite team. No petty scrimmages... no trotting out draft choices to rub other's faces in it... no bounty hunting... no lacl of discipline.

A successful, professional football team.. not a joke.

 

[I like Rams]

Not only did Fisher drive me nuts with his inability to find an OC, but alot of his decisions didnt make any sense.

1. Sitting Stacey for no reason. Dude was playing great, and then he got sat and Mason came in. Granted Mason did pretty good, but there was no reason to bench Stacey.
2. Asking Cook to block when Kendrick was 1000x better at blocking. I'd argue even catching the ball.
3. Not getting Bailey and Marquez more involved in the offense. Bailey had the best hands on our offense and is a good route runner, and Marquez stepped up when he was called and was reliable. Both rarely used.
4. Keeping Isiah Lead.
5. Using multiple draft picks on rbs almost every draft.
6. Signing Tavon to a bajillion dollar contract and not even knowing how to use him.

I'm sure there's more, just cant think of anymore at the moment.

 

[Soul Surfer]

I admit that I was ecstatic when they hired Fisher.

I bought into all the hype that he was being held back by the Tennessee owner.

2 years in when I saw what he was doing with the O line, I knew he wouldn't last.
I knew he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

After 5 years I was about ready to cuss him out publicly.

 

[Zero]

I don't care about 2016. Everyone had a bad year and Jared was thrown into that. It was reported that he wasn't ready in minicamps through training camp. Anyone thinking that was all on Jeff Fisher is just not acknowledging that fact that maybe...just maybe...Jared had a learning curve to adjust to. We've seen this with other QBs in the past too.

In the past 30 years that footballoutsiders have been keeping DVOA stats, there has never been this kind of year-to-year improvement in a quarterback before.As a matter of fact it's not even close.The closest QB to have this much improvement was Nick Foles from 2012 to 13 and Goff improved almost twice as much as Foles.
So no we have not seen anything like this in the past.

Do you think that maybe,,just maybe it had more to do with the fact that fisher hired an OC
who had never called a play before in the NFL or that he hired a QB coach
who had never coached a down in the NFL to coach a Rookie QB?
.Just curious,you ever wash a brand new car using sandpaper?
That's what fisher did to Goff.

Don't guess a coach with 22 years of HC experience deserves to get a hard time for that.
I mean surely if hiring an inexperienced OC didn't work out the first time(Cignetti ),then it's bound
to work the next time,Especially when you give this rookie NFL-OC a rookie QB to develop.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2017/week-9-quick-reads

he did plenty of things right here and I don't think he deserves all the crap he gets.

When fisher was hired, he inherited a very bad team.I think we could agree on that.
So that being said,after 5 drafts and 5 years of free agency,it only makes sense that
at the very least there should be a noticeable improvement.Right?
Especially when you consider the fact that
No team had more draft capital 2012 to 2014 than the Rams.

And Yet......

I don't recall him blaming everybody else

I think fisher deserves every single sliver of crap he gets,and I hope it all lands squarely on both
of his faces.It's not just because he was an absolute pathetic excuse for a coach.
It's certainly part of it,but the fact that he was allowed to be that bad for that long is
certainly another.

If fisher has a talent, it's schmoozing, and creating the illusion that all the failing
that goes on around him as a coach, is somehow not his fault.
A damned genius at this.

Since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger, only one other new coaching hire
has been brought back for a fifth year after having four consecutive losing seasons.

I think the thing that really grinds me is his absolute lack of accountability.
And this is where his second illusion comes to play

This illusion is called " I'm gonna pretend I'm taking responsibility
right before I tell you where I think the blame should really go."
It goes something like this:

When asked by Charissa Thompson to “fill in the blank” as to why he was fired, Fisher answered in the third person: “because he didn’t win enough games and the organization has a much bigger picture … and I don’t think I was a part of the city and the stadium,”

Do you see how he did that? Couldn't even use first person when seemingly taking some responsibility.
He had no problem saying "I" while pretending he's a victim.
There is a scientific term that describes this type of personality,It escapes me,but for now we'll just call it
the " piece of shit" syndrome.

Listen to McVay speak.He is quick to accept responsibility.Even when it's something that's
obviously not his fault.If we were 0-11,I would still have more respect for Sean.
That would be because,he leads like a man,not some piece of shit.

Another good example of fisher using the "blame illusion"
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=lo...lang=en-US&w=lN4dj3EhK6arUD6KpHS7bK4KAw1i3ty9

 

[Angry Ram]

In the past 30 years that footballoutsiders have been keeping DVOA stats, there has never been this kind of year-to-year improvement in a quarterback before.As a matter of fact it's not even close.The closest QB to have this much improvement was Nick Foles from 2012 to 13 and Goff improved almost twice as much as Foles.
So no we have not seen anything like this in the past.

Sorry not sorry but I tune out when you bring in DVOA and other non-football field related BS. Don't care.

Do you think that maybe,,just maybe it had more to do with the fact that fisher hired an OC
who had never called a play before in the NFL or that he hired a QB coach
who had never coached a down in the NFL to coach a Rookie QB?
.Just curious,you ever wash a brand new car using sandpaper?
That's what fisher did to Goff.

No. It's a combo of both. Jared was far from ready as a rookie. His play showed, hence starting Case Keenum.

Don't guess a coach with 22 years of HC experience deserves to get a hard time for that.
I mean surely if hiring an inexperienced OC didn't work out the first time(Cignetti ),then it's bound
to work the next time,Especially when you give this rookie NFL-OC a rookie QB to develop.

Frank Cignetti was far from "inexperienced" as he had QB/OC experience in both NFL and college since 1990. You don't think he had any idea of being an OC?

The main problem during his time was the starting QB getting hurt.

When fisher was hired, he inherited a very bad team.I think we could agree on that.
So that being said,after 5 drafts and 5 years of free agency,it only makes sense that
at the very least there should be a noticeable improvement.Right?
Especially when you consider the fact that
No team had more draft capital 2012 to 2014 than the Rams.

There was improvement. To say otherwise is ridiculous. The 2012-2016 Rams were no where near the shitshow 2007 - 2011 were.

I've been through this hundreds of times. He made plenty of correct draft picks, and missed some. As the norm. But again, his starting QB got hurt replaced by a carousel of turnover prone backups. Many of his FAs got hurt as well.

Yet there was improvement. He was able to take late round draft picks like Zac Stacy and Daryl Richardson and got production, even if it was only for one year. And they were 5th and 7th round picks, and can only do so much.

Honestly, did you ever go into a week during his tenure just hoping the team doesn't get embarrassed? I know I never did unlike Scott Linehan and Steve Spagnulo.

Do you see how he did that? Couldn't even use first person when seemingly taking some responsibility.
He had no problem saying "I" while pretending he's a victim.
There is a scientific term that describes this type of personality,It escapes me,but for now we'll just call it
the " piece of crap" syndrome.

Listen to McVay speak.He is quick to accept responsibility.Even when it's something that's
obviously not his fault.If we were 0-11,I would still have more respect for Sean.
That would be because,he leads like a man,not some piece of crap.

Another good example of fisher using the "blame illusion"
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=lo...lang=en-US&w=lN4dj3EhK6arUD6KpHS7bK4KAw1i3ty9

You are reading into this with your own idea of him. The article sites nothing that he his blaming others (we've got to do be better....huh, that sounds familiar). Other than what some unnamed source says when he got his feelers hurt.

Look, I'm not saying he was perfect. No coach is. The dude did what he could with turnover prone backups and bringing in talented rookie players. Far from the worst coach the team has had.

And so no, I am NOT going to put it all on his feet. I won't sling crap at him. Because he brought in plenty of talent. He pulled the Rams out of a Browns-level laughing stock with that talent.

Sean McVay is capitalizing on those moves while correcting his mistakes.

 

[dieterbrock]

No other ex-Rams coach has been tarred and feathered like Fish, nationally. Not Linehan or Spags, or EVEN Mike Martz..

Wait, what?
Linehan had it much, much worse, Spags probably as well.
Fisher's criticism has been more of a slow burn, as the team continues to get better, and then Keenum blowing up in Minny, his tenure gets worse and worse

 

[Loyal]

Wait, what?
Linehan had it much, much worse, Spags probably as well.
Fisher's criticism has been more of a slow burn, as the team continues to get better, and then Keenum blowing up in Minny, his tenure gets worse and worse

Yes, without a doubt....

Having the Post Dispatch & 101ESPN jump on Spags an Linehan was a regional thing, and everyone else just laughed for a couple of weeks, and then it was on to covering the Cowboys and the East Coast Football teams. Almost EVERY local and national radio/tv sports show that covers the NFL hammers Fisher with every good performance by Goff and Keenum. This is week 14 in the season following Fishers firing (during the season last year), and there is no slowing down. I have heard from more than one National sports guy, "If I could, I'd fire Fisher twice!"....Kinda funny, but the criticism has gone well past anything even possible after Linehan or Spags due to the development of social media, etc...

 

[Angry Ram]

Wait, what?
Linehan had it much, much worse, Spags probably as well.
Fisher's criticism has been more of a slow burn, as the team continues to get better, and then Keenum blowing up in Minny, his tenure gets worse and worse

Case Keenum still isn't getting credit. Media is driving the notion that he can be benched anytime for a guy that hasn't played in 2 years.

Yes, without a doubt....

Having the Post Dispatch & 101ESPN jump on Spags an Linehan was a regional thing, and everyone else just laughed for a couple of weeks, and then it was on to covering the Cowboys and the East Coast Football teams. Almost EVERY local and national radio/tv sports show that covers the NFL hammers Fisher with every good performance by Goff and Keenum. This is week 14 in the season following Fishers firing (during the season last year), and there is no slowing down. I have heard from more than one National sports guy, "If I could, I'd fire Fisher twice!"....Kinda funny, but the criticism has gone well past anything even possible after Linehan or Spags due to the development of social media, etc...

I agree man. The bashing isn't original. It isn't even remotely funny.

After Steve Spagnulo and Scott Linehan got canned, everyone moved on and the only time they are mentioned is if they happen to be coordinators when playing the Rams.

With Jeff Fisher it's constant, and a lot of it is unwarranted. If nothing else, he brought in:

HoF player - Aaron Donald

All-Pro level player - Michael Brockers, Janoris Jenkins, Greg Zurlein, Alec Ogletree, Johnny Hekker, Todd Gurley, Jared Goff

Quality starters - Trumaine Johnson, Rodney McCleod, Lamarcus Joyner, Rob Havenstein, Jamon Brown

Role players - Tavon Austin, TJ McDonald, Stedman Bailey

The guy had a 1-15 team, had a whopping 5 decent players to build around (Chris Long, Robert Quinn, Rodger Saffold, Sam Bradford, and a worn-out SJax) and brought it back to at the very least, a roster that can play at the NFL level.

Sean McVay gets huge credit for stabilizing the culture no doubt (that was JF's biggest issue), but he definitely came to a better roster.

 

[Soul Surfer]

All-Pro level player - Michael Brockers, Janoris Jenkins, Alec Ogletree...

Okay let's not exaggerate now.
Alec got one stray vote and Jenkins and Brockers are borderline Pro Bowlers but not "All Pros".

 

[nighttrain]

Okay let's not exaggerate now.
Alec got one stray vote and Jenkins and Brockers are borderline Pro Bowlers but not "All Pros".

All-Pro is a popularity contest between fans, should be voted on by players only, the guys that had to play against the3 Rams during the Fisher years might voted for a lot of Rams on D
train

 

[Soul Surfer]

All-Pro is a popularity contest between fans, should be voted on by players only, the guys that had to play against the3 Rams during the Fisher years might voted for a lot of Rams on D
train

I think you have it backwards man.

All Pros are voted on by Associated Press NFL football writers.

The Pro Bowl is the popularity contest voted on by half dizzy fans who only watch a lot of highlights at halftime.