Stay or Go, the Rams Can’t Afford to Keep Jeff Fisher

[Rmfnlt]

If you thought Fisher and the crew were doing great at these points then you must think they are pretty good at their jobs.

I guess, if you live in a vacuum.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Stan spoke (yes he spoke) about wanting more of a NEespue approach to building a team. Though the results have clearly not been there, the methodology is getting there.

I think you'd agree that a large part of New England's success is due to how well Bellichick performs his duties.

He's been given immense control and he's proven he knows how to build/maintain a successful team.

If Kroenke is using that model, it seems clear to me that Jeff Fisher is nowhere near as good as Bellichik.

So, the model isn't working very well right now.

 

[dieterbrock]

If you thought Fisher and the crew were doing great at these points then you must think they are pretty good at their jobs.

Mike Shanahan was doing great when he got the Redskins in to the playoffs, a year later (including an injury riddled season) he was fired
I get that people dont want Fisher fired because they fear change. If the calls for his head happened after 2 years, I'd agree that a little patience is needed. Cant call people that are disappointed after 4 losing seasons, and want the coach out, impatient.
Only 1 coach in 50 years kept his job after 4 straight losing seasons (to start)

 

[Alan]

"Highlights: McLeod leads this group as he has risen through the ranks from key special-teams contributor to starting free safety. Although he's still prone to costly mistakes, McLeod has developed into a solid starter on the back end and is one of the team's top priorities to re-sign this offseason."

Yeah, I'll pass on this "top priority." Unless he's really cheap.

 

[MountainRam]

All due respect, anyone who wants Fisher back can you please provide your 3 logical reasons? This will help me (likely some others) understand the situation better.

 

[drasconis]

And of the 32 coaches in the NFL and those available for next season, where would you rank him? Who would you rank above him and say they could get us to a Superbowl without getting lucky? I honestly look at the coaches out there and put Fish in the top ten regardless. And while that doesn't say that he WILL get us to the Superbowl, it does say that he needs probably a little less luck than most.

Every coach needs some luck to get to a SB...it is more a question of who needs the least luck.

Guys I put ahead of JF (based upon all coaches - not just those available...wasn't sure by your phrasing), in no particular order:
Bilacheat - yes has Brady, but got 11 wins with Cassell, has modified his game based upon what he has instead of building in one shape...
Lewis - develops to long term plan, question if he can get to SB...but ahead of JF cause he gets to playoffs something JF hasn't done in LONG time
Arians - seems to get guys to play hard, does well in adversity (weird situations and heavy injuries), both sides of ball are developed
john Haurbaugh - been there won it, been deep in PO many times, team is down now...but been high for long time
Fox - builds well, hasn't won it but been there 2 times....works with what he has (made playoffs with Teebow), focus on both sides of ball
Reid - never won the big one, but wins lots....doesn't have JFs ups and downs...heck look at Chiefs this year.....lost best players, and on a run...
McCarthy - above JF cause he has done it, yes blessed with QBs, but to stay on top that long is impressive (remember not getting the draft picks to rebuild)
Payton- focus's more on O, but been there won it, has eye for talent
Coughlin - 2 SBs with Eli.....really...not a great regular season guy, but darn a post season monster
tomlin - won it, always competitive...shown willingness to change styles
Carroll - hate him, but builds D just as well...and somehow gets by with that meager O - has to be ahead of JF cause to often we say he is building like Seattle...
j. Gruden - burdened with a lack of talent (lack of recent draft picks) and saddled with a problem QB and bad Oline has the team competing....

can also argue Ryan, Rivera, and Lovie....Zimmer is also moving up

 

[Rmfnlt]

I'm guessing Coughlin will probably get let go if they don't win that hapless division.

He'd be interesting... but I think he's just too old.

The rest aren't going anywhere as best I can tell.

Always liked Lovie...
Chicago -
2004: 5-11
2005: 11-5 (playoffs)
2006: 13-3 (playoffs)
2007: 7-9
2008: 9-7
2009: 7-9
2010: 11-5 (playoffs)
2011: 8-8
2012: 10-6
81-63 (.563).
What we wouldn't give for a record like that!

Now, in Tampa, it looks like he's doing it again.
2014: 2-14
2015: 6-6

Heck, he even gave his old friend , Martz, a job.

 

[drasconis]

I'm guessing Coughlin will probably get let go if they don't win that hapless division.

He'd be interesting... but I think he's just too old.

The rest aren't going anywhere as best I can tell.

Always liked Lovie...
Chicago -
2004: 5-11
2005: 11-5 (playoffs)
2006: 13-3 (playoffs)
2007: 7-9
2008: 9-7
2009: 7-9
2010: 11-5 (playoffs)
2011: 8-8
2012: 10-6
81-63 (.563).
What we wouldn't give for a record like that!

Now, in Tampa, it looks like he's doing it again.
2014: 2-14
2015: 6-6

Heck, he even gave his old friend , Martz, a job.

Agreed, just was trying to rank those ahead...and wasn't sure if it was "those available" or "current head coaches"....

I realize it is tough to really judge....no two coaches ever have the exact same situation. No one really knows how JF would have done up in GB with Rodgers or how Bilacheat would have done here over the last 4 yrs...that is why I tend to rate higher the guys that have changed philosophies to stay at the top and those that seem to balance both sides of the ball....I tend to think it helps prevent some of the ups and downs....

 

[Rmfnlt]

Agreed, just was trying to rank those ahead...and wasn't sure if it was "those available" or "current head coaches"....

I realize it is tough to really judge....no two coaches ever have the exact same situation. No one really knows how JF would have done up in GB with Rodgers or how Bilacheat would have done here over the last 4 yrs...that is why I tend to rate higher the guys that have changed philosophies to stay at the top and those that seem to balance both sides of the ball....I tend to think it helps prevent some of the ups and downs....

There are some HCs that have a track record of taking a down and out franchise and improving it fairly quickly, getting them into the playoffs in a couple of years.

Parcells was one
Fox seems to be another
Look what Harbaugh did at Michigan in his first year
We'll see how this year turns out, but Lovie might be on that list if things continue to improve

Maybe we can find the next guy who can do this...

 

[drasconis]

There are some HCs that have a track record of taking a down and out franchise and improving it fairly quickly, getting them into the playoffs in a couple of years.

Parcells was one
Fox seems to be another
Look what Harbaugh did at Michigan in his first year
We'll see how this year turns out, but Lovie might be on that list if things continue to improve

Maybe we can find the next guy who can do this...

I always liked Marty S., actually wanted him when Rams got JF...yes his post season record was always pointed at, but man he could turn an organization around....too old now

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I'll bet all my cows if we make a change it's gonna be for
Josh McDaniels 2.0

 

[drasconis]

I'm guessing Coughlin will probably get let go if they don't win that hapless division.

He'd be interesting... but I think he's just too old.

The rest aren't going anywhere as best I can tell.

Always liked Lovie...
Chicago -
2004: 5-11
2005: 11-5 (playoffs)
2006: 13-3 (playoffs)
2007: 7-9
2008: 9-7
2009: 7-9
2010: 11-5 (playoffs)
2011: 8-8
2012: 10-6
81-63 (.563).
What we wouldn't give for a record like that!

Now, in Tampa, it looks like he's doing it again.
2014: 2-14
2015: 6-6

Heck, he even gave his old friend , Martz, a job.

consider this, if somehow he won 3 of 4 this year he would have as many winning seasons as JF in 11 yrs vs 20, would also have the SB appearance...you would have to rank him higher....

 

[RamFan503]

I think you'd agree that a large part of New England's success is due to how well Bellichick performs his duties.

He's been given immense control and he's proven he knows how to build/maintain a successful team.

If Kroenke is using that model, it seems clear to me that Jeff Fisher is nowhere near as good as Bellichik.

So, the model isn't working very well right now.

I'd agree that it isn't working as well - that's pretty clear. I will say that belly cheat lucked into Brady and already had a Probowl QB in Drew Bledsoe when he got there. Flip a coin and you still have a franchise QB to lead your team. And you are not seriously going to compare the team that the hoodie inherited to the team that Fish inherited are you?

No stupid ass tuck rule decision (later abandoned because the NFL realized it was a dumbass idea) and the Patsies aren't even in that first Superbowl. No taping of our walk-throughs and do they get over on us by 3 points in the SB? If those two things don't happen, does that franchise do what it has done? I'm not so sure.

There are a ton of factors to look at when looking at successful franchises and methodology. The methodology is sound. The "breaks" you make or receive can make big differences.

I'm not saying Fish is as good as bellyfat. I'm just saying that he likely is not as bad as his record suggests when comparing all that factors in.

 

[RamFan503]

Every coach needs some luck to get to a SB...it is more a question of who needs the least luck.

Guys I put ahead of JF (based upon all coaches - not just those available...wasn't sure by your phrasing), in no particular order:
Bilacheat - yes has Brady, but got 11 wins with Cassell, has modified his game based upon what he has instead of building in one shape...
Lewis - develops to long term plan, question if he can get to SB...but ahead of JF cause he gets to playoffs something JF hasn't done in LONG time
Arians - seems to get guys to play hard, does well in adversity (weird situations and heavy injuries), both sides of ball are developed
john Haurbaugh - been there won it, been deep in PO many times, team is down now...but been high for long time
Fox - builds well, hasn't won it but been there 2 times....works with what he has (made playoffs with Teebow), focus on both sides of ball
Reid - never won the big one, but wins lots....doesn't have JFs ups and downs...heck look at Chiefs this year.....lost best players, and on a run...
McCarthy - above JF cause he has done it, yes blessed with QBs, but to stay on top that long is impressive (remember not getting the draft picks to rebuild)
Payton- focus's more on O, but been there won it, has eye for talent
Coughlin - 2 SBs with Eli.....really...not a great regular season guy, but darn a post season monster
tomlin - won it, always competitive...shown willingness to change styles
Carroll - hate him, but builds D just as well...and somehow gets by with that meager O - has to be ahead of JF cause to often we say he is building like Seattle...
j. Gruden - burdened with a lack of talent (lack of recent draft picks) and saddled with a problem QB and bad Oline has the team competing....

can also argue Ryan, Rivera, and Lovie....Zimmer is also moving up

I would disagree with Gruden, Payton (yes Payton), Tomlin, Lewis, and Reid. I am going by what I see as what the coaches have to work with when they get to a franchise and other circumstances. I'm not saying you have to agree. It's just my opinion. I would however put Rivera in the conversation. But even your list has Fish arguably at 14 and probably only two to four of the coaches you listed will be looking for a job after the season. And only two of the possibly availables have actually won a SB.

So given that, I would say no to Payton and Coughlin. I think Payton is the definition of a coach that had everything fall into place, and Coughlin will not be able to start over with this team. My guess is that Coughlin is cut loose by NY, he will retire anyway.

 

[dieterbrock]

Stan spoke (yes he spoke) about wanting more of a NEespue approach to building a team. Though the results have clearly not been there, the methodology is getting there. So while Fish has gone 7 wins, 7 wins, 6 wins, ? - not only is the product nowhere near as bad (speaks volumes for how bad we were IMO) but Fish was directly hired by Stan and the way he and Snead are trying to build the team is in keeping with not only what Stan said he wanted, but also in keeping with how he runs things. I'm sure that if Fish loses the team or the team fails to perform in the final year of his contract, Stan will look to make changes. And even then he probably won't look to blow the whole thing up. Instead, he will likely charge KD and Snead with the job of finding a new HC.

One thing though about the "New England way of doing things", Im not sure if it started with Belechick, I think it started with Kraft/Parcells.
Point being, Pete Carroll coached 3 years, 2 winning seasons but his record got progessively worse each year.
So following the methodology, if Carroll was let go, certainly Fisher's resume would be suspect.

 

[RamDino]

The more realistic reason Fisher could stay: He is owed about $7 million on the final year of his deal and Kroenke might not want to pay him to not coach the team.

I wonder if Fisher should volunteer next year to be a "play-for-pay" year, like he asked of Sam Bradford? Incentives for winning games. I know... not gonna happen.

 

[Mackeyser]

I'll bet all my cows if we make a change it's gonna be for
Josh McDaniels 2.0

Bet not. It's one thing to try to coach guys up. Josh McDaniels wanted to install the Erhardt-Perkins offense and get immediate results when such an install takes MINIMUM of 2 seasons AND it requires a very cerebral QB and WRs. They don't have to be the most twitchy or fastest, but they DO have to be very good in the classroom. Brian Quick absolutely could NOT play in that offense, for example.

And, as of right now, he's right back in that offense having tremendous success. You think he's going to want to come here with personnel who aren't capable of running that? He'd have to tear down the O and while installing it, swap out personnel left and right and HOPE that Mannion was the guy (I actually think he could be because as I've mentioned before, he was the first of our 3 QBs to memorize the offense...as a rookie)

So, while I think Josh McDaniels has a chance to be a good HC when given another chance, I think he's still got some mellowing to do.

Now, when Mike Singletary brought up that he wants to throw his hat into the ring, THAT really struck me. Now that we KNOW what a clusterfarg the SF Front Office was, I give the other Mad Mike a bit of a pass when he was building that defensive juggernaut. He just hadn't gotten that Offense clicking. But he did say that he'd learned some things after that coaching stint and I'd love to hear it. He's a guy who held players on all sides accountable and expected guys to show up...with heart.

And seriously, if dude can turn Vernon Davis into an unselfish, team player, dude has serious coaching chops. I'm just saying, cuz we all saw that rookie Vernon Davis had knucklehead tatooed to his forehead.

 

[drasconis]

I would disagree with Gruden, Payton (yes Payton), Tomlin, Lewis, and Reid. I am going by what I see as what the coaches have to work with when they get to a franchise and other circumstances. I'm not saying you have to agree. It's just my opinion. I would however put Rivera in the conversation. But even your list has Fish arguably at 14 and probably only two to four of the coaches you listed will be looking for a job after the season. And only two of the possibly availables have actually won a SB.

So given that, I would say no to Payton and Coughlin. I think Payton is the definition of a coach that had everything fall into place, and Coughlin will not be able to start over with this team. My guess is that Coughlin is cut loose by NY, he will retire anyway.

I agree Coughlin is to old. Wasn't really sure form your post if you just were talking all current coaches or those likely available.

Figured most would disagree with Gruden and it is a bit early there...but man he started with a black hole in DC...but really impressed so far.

Payton is interesting in agree he may not be as good as his rep (think if he is free this off season there is a HUGE interest), but I put him well above JF (especially with that mess of an ownership down there)

I currently put JF in that middle group of coaches, not a total embarrassment, but not good - just average....will sniff the playoffs occasionally but not consistently. The trouble is that several other coaches not listed are younger and have more room to "grow", feel like JF he has enough track record to know what he is. So while I wouldn't say Quinn is better than JF I can't say JF is actually better than him since that book isn't written.
You are rolling the dice on "potential"

I don't think that next coach has to have a SB ring, JF doesn't have one as a coach so why does the next guy have to have it (not sure if you are implying this, just mentioning since you talk about the SB of the possibles listed). i would like the next coach to lead us to the SB but to be honest consistent playoffs would be an upgrade (maybe not optimum, but an upgrade). For example if you asked me if I could upgrade to Lewis or Reid I would do it in a heartbeat, though I would prefer tomlin/Carroll/Belicheat...and would jump at some upcomers that haven't won one (but have a smaller sample size) like Arians.

I would obviously also like to roll the dice with guys like Gase or Jackson who aren't current coaches but show promise...don't follow college enough to comment on any of them, but there should be some in there also worth trying.

This is obviously all opinion. For instance I believe that Linehan got a raw deal, NOT saying he would have ended up doing anything, but I strongly believe that Haslett worked to turn the locker room against him to get another HC job, and most young coaches won't survive if their DC is looking to ruin them....

 

[Mackeyser]

If the Rams expect to go forward with Rob Boras as OC (unless the offense really takes off these last few games like the Lions O has under Jim Bob Cooter) and keep the defense intact and have no money left for improving the offense....then yeah. Fisher has to go because nothing will have materially changed.

If, however, the Rams do a Vermeil-type intervention and require Fisher to hire a GW level Offensive guru for the offense with the same level of autonomy and free up resources such that the offense can improve (yeah, that will probably mean Chris Long is gone or kept on a dramatically reduced/restructured deal), then I'd keep him for another season, his last season of his contract.

One big part of that is that as many as TEN franchises will be looking for HCs and I really don't want the Rams to be part of that pool. The Rams with the pending relocation uncertainty will turn off a number of the top candidates even though Kroenke pays top dollar and the last thing the Rams need is to take a chance on an untested OC/DC candidate who's a hot name, but was really #8 on most lists. We could always strike gold, but this year looks to be a seller's market and I just would rather the Rams not be a desperate buyer in it. Frankly, if we can get a top shelf OC, I'd be good with that. And yes, I think you have to include Martz in that.

Not saying I wouldn't love a chance at Adam Gase or Hue Jackson for HC if Fisher leaves after this season, but I don't think we'll honestly have a chance at either. Not in a million years. We'd be looking at tired HC retreads that honestly none of us would be too excited about or a crapshoot of an untested coordinator. Not that Gase or Jackson is "tested", but moreso than others, if you get what I mean.

 

[RamFan503]

One thing though about the "New England way of doing things", Im not sure if it started with Belechick, I think it started with Kraft/Parcells.
Point being, Pete Carroll coached 3 years, 2 winning seasons but his record got progessively worse each year.
So following the methodology, if Carroll was let go, certainly Fisher's resume would be suspect.

Except that Carroll was not let go because of record. He was let go due to conflict of theory - at least according to an interview of Kraft.