Stay or Go, the Rams Can’t Afford to Keep Jeff Fisher

[baconandbread]

Thinking about how Martz could use Tavon is a football wet dream. Ditto for Gurley for that matter, given his ability.

...but you also have to consider how Martz would use this offensive line and Case Keenum.

 

[Rmfnlt]

There isn't a coach in NFL history that could have gotten this team to win under these conditions.

Remember that last year under Spagnuolo?

Remember when they were literally bringing in guys off the street to play in the secondary? I mean literally.

Remember when Rams fans blamed Devaney because there was insufficient depth?

Remember when the players effort seemed to wane?

Remember when Spagnuolo and Devaney got fired?

Not defending those men... just pointing out the similarities... and they only got 3 years.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Where were you at 7-7-1 the first year? Or 4-3 this year after Gurley had exploded onto the scene

Not sure what this has to do with anything (???)

 

[RamBill]

Rams trudging toward an offseason full of uncertainty
By Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-ra...dging-toward-an-offseason-full-of-uncertainty

EARTH CITY, Mo. -- As the 2015 season nears its end, the St. Louis Rams already have guaranteed themselves a 12th consecutive non-winning season. One more loss in the final four games will secure a losing record in every year since 2006.

Obviously, that's a whole lot of losing. But what might be the most concerning part about it all is that there doesn't seem to be a quick fix available as the Rams head toward an offseason sure to be filled with questions.

With that in mind, let's take an early look at some of the issues facing the Rams heading into 2016:


-- First and foremost on the minds of many, including owner Stan Kroenke, is where the team will play its home games in 2016 and beyond. We know they have one "home" game in London, but whether the team is able to move to Los Angeles or not will be decided in the coming months. It could happen as soon as the Jan. 12-13 owners meetings in Houston. Much of what the Rams do in the months that follow likely will hinge greatly on what decision the NFL makes. A trickle-down effect from the Los Angeles decision to the rest of the offseason is the one thing we can bet heavily on, though we don't know what the implications of the Rams staying or going will be.

-- The end of this season will mark the end of four years of Jeff Fisher's regime as the head coach and primary football decision-maker. Clearly, the results haven't been good, and in most situations it wouldn't be much of a debate as to whether he'd get to coach his fifth year. But because Kroenke is so reclusive, nobody really knows what he's thinking when it comes to Fisher's future or that of anyone else in the football operation. Some argue that Kroenke will keep Fisher around because he can lead a team through relocation, as he did many years ago with the Tennessee Titans moving from Houston. It's an argument born of the idea that Kroenke reportedly quizzed Fisher on the subject before hiring him in 2012. It's also a pretty nonsensical reason for keeping a coach. Does Fisher have an endless supply of packing peanuts? Is he dynamite with bubble wrap? Yes, a move can be complicated, but it's hardly a reason to keep a coach, especially one who hasn't had a winning season in his four years with the team. The more realistic reason Fisher could stay: He is owed about $7 million on the final year of his deal and Kroenke might not want to pay him to not coach the team.

-- As for the roster, the Rams find themselves in a really difficult situation. As it stands, they now have 17 players scheduled for either restricted or unrestricted free agency after the season. Before the season, it seemed the Rams would have at least a few of those players signed beyond this year, but the only one who inked a new deal was quarterback Nick Foles. The Rams will have plenty of salary cap space but they might have to use most of it to keep core defensive players and unrestricted free agents like cornerbacks Janoris Jenkins and/or Trumaine Johnson, safety Rodney McLeod, linebacker Mark Barron, ends William Hayes and/or Eugene Sims and defensive tackle Nick Fairley. Of course, if the Rams do that, they probably won't have much money to spend to fix the offense, which desperately needs most of the attention. Sure, the Rams could use the draft to address the offense but that would be mostly a repeat of this year and that's no guaranteed fix, especially if the same people making the decisions are still in place.

-- The Rams also face some decisions on some high-priced veterans such as tight end Jared Cook, offensive lineman Rodger Saffold, end Chris Long, linebacker Akeem Ayers and receiver Kenny Britt. It's unlikely all will return, at least at their currently scheduled salary-cap numbers, and while making moves with those players would open more cap space, it would also create even more needs to fill.

-- All of that said, there's no more important decision for Kroenke than who will be leading the franchise into the future. With so many important football decisions to be made, the easiest way to make an already messy situation worse is to compound it by allowing the people who put you in that situation in the first place to make so many critical choices for the future of the franchise. Say what you will about Kroenke's approach to owning the team, but the Rams spend to the cap nearly every year and he forked over a lot of money to land Fisher. If Kroenke wants to maximize his investment -- which would seem to be a priority for any owner in any market -- putting a winning product on the field after this year goes a long way toward that end. This is an organization that once again needs a clear direction -- no matter where it calls home.

 

[RamBill]

Rodney McLeod highlights St. Louis Rams' undrafted free agents
By Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-ra...ighlights-st-louis-rams-undrafted-free-agents

Undrafted free agents: Jake McQuaide, LS; Chase Reynolds, RB; Johnny Hekker, P; Rodney McLeod, S; Daren Bates, LB; Benny Cunningham, RB; Cody Davis, S; Marcus Roberson, CB; Ethan Westbrooks, DL; Matt Longacre, DE; Cameron Lynch, LB; Bradley Marquez, WR.

Starts: Rodney McLeod (12), Johnny Hekker (12), Benny Cunningham (1), Marcus Roberson (2), Jake McQuaide (12).


Highlights: McLeod leads this group as he has risen through the ranks from key special-teams contributor to starting free safety. Although he's still prone to costly mistakes, McLeod has developed into a solid starter on the back end and is one of the team's top priorities to re-sign this offseason.

Aside from McLeod, the Rams have had some success finding good special-teams players through undrafted free agency, and many of the names listed above are key contributors in that area. Bates and Hekker are special-teams captains, McQuaide is as solid as they come at long snapper, Davis is having a Pro Bowl-caliber season covering kicks, and Marquez and Lynch have been mainstays for special-teams coach John Fassel. Hekker also is a former Pro Bowler and one of the best punters in the league.

Cunningham is a core special-teams player too, but he has become more than that, serving as the team's third-down running back. He's one of the best backs in the league at picking up the blitz and is solid enough as a runner to make a spot start. Roberson, Westbrooks and Longacre have all flashed potential to help the defense, as well.

 

[blackbart]

When I mentioned conditions it wasn't about injuries - it was in response to the unfortunate atmosphere this team has found itself 4 years in

Well as far as the conditions or situations (like the Bradford conundrum) Fisher is responsible for all of it. I mean if you build a house and the roof leaks and the gas doesn't work and the doors don't close correctly - sure you can blame subcontractors and even the guy hammering the nails, but it's the Head Contractor who carries all the responsibility.

From what I have seen from the players their opinion on the atmosphere is a lot more favorable than what you are trying to portrait.

As or the analogy, nice try but it doesn't fit the situation. It's more like a parent watching your kids and no matter how much you try to tell them your experiences they still make their own path. Some good and some bad outcomes and not much you can do about it.

 

[blackbart]

Remember that last year under Spagnuolo?

Remember when they were literally bringing in guys off the street to play in the secondary? I mean literally.

Remember when Rams fans blamed Devaney because there was insufficient depth?

Remember when the players effort seemed to wane?

Remember when Spagnuolo and Devaney got fired?

Not defending those men... just pointing out the similarities... and they only got 3 years.

I remember but what I remember is poor talent not injuries that destroyed their chances with that leadership team. Most of them never caught with another team after getting released from the Rams.

 

[blackbart]

Not sure what this has to do with anything (???)

If you thought Fisher and the crew were doing great at these points then you must think they are pretty good at their jobs.

 

[drasconis]

If you thought Fisher and the crew were doing great at these points then you must think they are pretty good at their jobs.

Not really. A opinion on someone may, and is expected to, change as more evidence is presented.

I.e. The record the first year was very positive, seemed to do a lot with a little and there was a sign of a long term plan....3 years later, it looks like either luck or a fluke that he got that team there...with much more talented teams he is doing less and less. My opinion changed as more evidence is presented. Maybe my initial opinion was wrong or maybe he changed for the worse...

i.e. The team record at 4-3, a good start looks like some of the concerns (like weak OL and QB) are doing better than expected....at 4-8 it looks like the rams got a few early breaks as teams did not have a book on Cig the OL or Gurley, but it was smoke and mirrors and the NFL caught up quickly.

Locking your opinion on a coach based off a single year or part of a season is like determining if a player is HoF off one year, or how good a pitcher is based off the first 2 innings. Foles looked HoF a few years back, what was your opinion of him back then...how about now? We have all seen pitchers get the first 9 guys out in 3 innings in baseball and seems to be rolling along...then they tear him up the second time through. You can form an early opinion and then revise it or find it is wrong.

It is like saying you looked at Chris Johnson his first year and said he was HoF and now years later you aren't able to say you were wrong or mistaken at his talent...

 

[blackbart]

Not really. A opinion on someone may, and is expected to, change as more evidence is presented.

I.e. The record the first year was very positive, seemed to do a lot with a little and there was a sign of a long term plan....3 years later, it looks like either luck or a fluke that he got that team there...with much more talented teams he is doing less and less. My opinion changed as more evidence is presented. Maybe my initial opinion was wrong or maybe he changed for the worse...

i.e. The team record at 4-3, a good start looks like some of the concerns (like weak OL and QB) are doing better than expected....at 4-8 it looks like the rams got a few early breaks as teams did not have a book on Cig the OL or Gurley, but it was smoke and mirrors and the NFL caught up quickly.

Locking your opinion on a coach based off a single year or part of a season is like determining if a player is HoF off one year, or how good a pitcher is based off the first 2 innings. Foles looked HoF a few years back, what was your opinion of him back then...how about now? We have all seen pitchers get the first 9 guys out in 3 innings in baseball and seems to be rolling along...then they tear him up the second time through. You can form an early opinion and then revise it or find it is wrong.

It is like saying you looked at Chris Johnson his first year and said he was HoF and now years later you aren't able to say you were wrong or mistaken at his talent...

Sounds like your opinion is based only on the win loss record and nothing more. I have a lot more that I try to include.

 

[RamFan503]

I remember but what I remember is poor talent not injuries that destroyed their chances with that leadership team. Most of them never caught with another team after getting released from the Rams.

The first part of this was not true. Spags dealt with a ton of injuries. IIRR there was a stat that showed this team had the most injuries of any other team in many years.

The poor talent part was very true and something not so true with Linny. But going from 8 to 3 to 2 wins and totally losing the team damned Linny, and going 1 win, 7 wins in a very weak NFCW, back down to 2 wins really damned Spags.

The thing we need to keep in mind is that Spags was not hired by Kroenke. So Spags was no doubt on a shorter leash to begin with. Stan spoke (yes he spoke) about wanting more of a NEespue approach to building a team. Though the results have clearly not been there, the methodology is getting there. So while Fish has gone 7 wins, 7 wins, 6 wins, ? - not only is the product nowhere near as bad (speaks volumes for how bad we were IMO) but Fish was directly hired by Stan and the way he and Snead are trying to build the team is in keeping with not only what Stan said he wanted, but also in keeping with how he runs things. I'm sure that if Fish loses the team or the team fails to perform in the final year of his contract, Stan will look to make changes. And even then he probably won't look to blow the whole thing up. Instead, he will likely charge KD and Snead with the job of finding a new HC.

I'm thinking Fish is here next year and will be on a prove it season. Hopefully, Fish finds a good OC and QB and the young O-line plays up to their potential. Then we can all just move on with trying to figure out who the Rams will host in the playoffs.

Cheers.

 

[blackbart]

@RamFan503 It doesn't surprise me that I don't remember the injuries as much as the deficiencies, those years are traumatic brain injuries for most of us and surpressing them I think would be normal

 

[RamFan503]

As I said when we were contemplating hiring him, he's an average coach who will never take us to the top unless he gets lucky.

How many coaches could you say that about? Most of them? And of the 32 coaches in the NFL and those available for next season, where would you rank him? Who would you rank above him and say they could get us to a Superbowl without getting lucky? I honestly look at the coaches out there and put Fish in the top ten regardless. And while that doesn't say that he WILL get us to the Superbowl, it does say that he needs probably a little less luck than most.

Yeah you are right. And I like Fisher, but I struggle with him passing on so many QBs in the draft. If a team is ever in position to draft a good QB, they should do it if possible, even if they have a QB, as long as they believe he is an NFL starting caliber QB. They can sit him and let him learn and have a great backup who can challenge the starter. If a team needs a QB they absolutely should never pass on one if they have a chance to draft a guy that they feel is an NFL starting QB, even if he has to sit a year.

I agree with this. This is one of the biggest faults I find in this regime. I was banging the table for a QB that at worst case could sit and learn behind Bradford. But in 2014, I had Mettenburger (sp?) as the steal of the draft as maybe a 4th rounder and in 2013 felt that all the QBs sucked. So Derek Carr has looked pretty dang good in hind sight, Bortles is kind of meh, and Teddy - if you ask me - is frail and will never be a franchise quality QB.

Even though I have NEVER liked Foles (including before he was even a consideration for our team - and I think most here can attest to that), when you look at the choices, I can see thinking he was not a bad option.

So taking all of this in my mind, I don't place the level of blame as high as many others do. We gambled on a couple of QBs and FAs and we lost. Time to move on. If it is with Fish, I get the decision. If it is without Fish, I am less enthused right now but get the decision.

 

[RamFan503]

@RamFan503 It doesn't surprise me that I don't remember the injuries as much as the deficiencies, those years are traumatic brain injuries for most of us and surpressing them I think would be normal

Ha! No doubt man. No doubt.

 

[drasconis]

Sounds like your opinion is based only on the win loss record and nothing more. I have a lot more that I try to include.

You base that on what in the statement I made?

I could say it sounds like you make up your mind based on your initial opinion and are to bullheaded/stubborn to admit when you are wrong....based upon your statement.

But yes I look at win and loss record, but not exclusively. I look at the talent level, I look at the trends both in defensive stats and offensive stats. I look at player improvement and player selection. But do tell us more how you have seen nothing to sway you from your initial opinion and how win loss record means nothing.....

 

[RamFan503]

@blackbart and @drasconis - let's keep it about points and not go down the wrong path. Not saying it will escalate but I just don't get a good vibe from your back and forth right now. Back into the shadows I go.

 

[blackbart]

You base that on what in the statement I made?

I could say it sounds like you make up your mind based on your initial opinion and are to bullheaded/stubborn to admit when you are wrong....based upon your statement.

But yes I look at win and loss record, but not exclusively. I look at the talent level, I look at the trends both in defensive stats and offensive stats. I look at player improvement and player selection. But do tell us more how you have seen nothing to sway you from your initial opinion and how win loss record means nothing.....

Again???? OK

Fisher has and this FO team have had crap for luck on the injury front in particular with Bradford. That one player changed the way the rebuild was handled last year. They could not stick with him for a third year at that salary and could not get Bradford to re-do the contract. They took a flyer on Foles, I hated it but even worse I hated the extension.

With Bradford being healthy and on the rise as he was in 2013 you could see this team easily winning more games each year and probably being a playoff contender the last 2 years and this year too.

The turn over in the roster, being the youngest team in the league and piling on injuries to top line players other than Bradford just compounded things. Even this year they have been hamstrung on defense with Ogletree, Quinn, Long, and now McDonald missing more than 1/4 of the year they have been able to show but not win in spite of what was happening on the other side of the ball.

The O, the failures on this side of the ball can be tied to one thing IMO not building the Oline first. I believe they tried but the FAs they brought in were not enough to cover the lack of talent on the team and then injuries took Wells and Long out of anything they could have added. Not like they didn't try but there was so much garbage to dump even with the exra picks it was a big hole to dig out of.

Fisher still has the players. The is no where in the media (other than JJ bitching even though he has been better he hasn't been all pro IMO) that you see any negative reports. In fact just the opposite, you see players taking responsibility for the performances and saying how they love playing for Fisher.

On top of all that throw in the move and the deck has been stacked against them being able to put up winning seasons.

Fish is Kronke's guy, he's not going anywhere next year and if they want to attract a 'big time OC" it won't be with a HC on a 1 year deal. I still would not be surprised to see an extension to allow Fisher the chance to see the fruit of this rebuild and to move the team if that happens.

 

[blackbart]

@blackbart and @drasconis - let's keep it about points and not go down the wrong path. Not saying it will escalate but I just don't get a good vibe from your back and forth right now. Back into the shadows I go.

No worries I got nothing bad here. I just need to make a word doc I can cut and paste from

 

[gabriel18]

I bet they WERE tired after that 98 yard drive they gave up...I think tired or not, this defense has given up far too many big plays and been strafed by the run way too much...I don't care why it happens, only that it does.. I'm not a stats monger, I'm just using my eyes to make this judgment..I'll not make excuses for a poor performance, whether it be tired or a couple of injuries, etc...

Well said . If I remember right this was right after halftime so tired is not an issue . Poor performance

 

[Alan]

RamFan503 liking seafood:
How many coaches could you say that about? Most of them? And of the 32 coaches in the NFL and those available for next season, where would you rank him? Who would you rank above him and say they could get us to a Superbowl without getting lucky? I honestly look at the coaches out there and put Fish in the top ten regardless. And while that doesn't say that he WILL get us to the Superbowl, it does say that he needs probably a little less luck than most.

My knowledge of coaches around the league is very limited. I don't start doing research on one until there's a high probability that he might be our next coach. Though as luck would have it, I already knew about Fisher because I had followed (sorta) the Titans since we beat them in the SB.

I'm not insisting he be fired this year though I don't think we should renew his contract. Unless of course there's someone better out there. You've said the options are mediocre and I see no reason to change like for like. Still, others think there are good options out there so I'll have to evaluate them as they're mentioned. As I've said, I think he's average but I want to upgrade that's for sure. You have a higher opinion of him than I do but I'll say this, I think he may have learned his lesson about the need to build a good O-line. That would be a big improvement to me. Not enough to renew his contract though.