Sports Science: How Goff and Wentz compare to NFL QBs

[Ramrasta]

Is this release time measured as their fastest recorded releases or did someone go through film and calculate an average? They used the maximum recorded release velocities instead of the averages so that portion is not meaningful. They also can't accurately report the 7" difference from the throws without knowing the exact angle the ball was thrown from. Plus, if the ball was initially released at a higher point, it will also factor into the net distance.

The only meaningful thing to take from this video is the pocket traits and size comparisons.

 

[PARAM]

YGoff definitely is more active moving in the pocket while Wentz likes to stand tall and deliver a strike. Is one method better than the other?

Yes. Standing tall in the pocket though admirable, is good against Weber St or Western Illinois. But you get clubbed enough times by teams like the Seahawks, Denver or Pittsburgh and suddenly standing tall isn't such a smart thing. And it could cause the breakdown of passing plays. Will Wentz be able to run as well in the NFL as he did in the FCS? If he's a Ram, I certainly hope so.

 

[Mackeyser]

Actually Mac, as usual, you've bent the facts to fit your narrative. If you throw a 100 mph football into the ground, it won't go as far as. 10 mph ball thrown into the air. Duh. Thanks for that.

However, if you're accurate, the initial velocity is a MAJOR factor.

You're just flat wrong. Give it up, man.

What narrative? It's a science question and I love science. It was my field and I enjoy it.

It's a question of physics. I'll break it down...again. If you want. I know the science. It's NOT a matter of opinion. It's NOT a matter of dissing Goff. When Goff throws a ball, it is governed by the Laws of Physics. Why do the balls he throws behave the way they do? That's what I explained. I'll see if I can search for the post where I was talking to @jrry32 about it. I've put together a little more since then to refine the overall analysis, but the post still stands on its own.

What you said was utter nonsense. I don't even know where to begin.

But, if you want the physics, all you have to do is ask. Including the differential equations (which amount to basic ballistics) would really bore the NOT out of people, but I could put it together and even have my daughter check it (she's a math major and tutors Calc students in college... I took 3rd semester Calc at Lehigh... damn...22 years ago, so she'd make sure I didn't make any dumb errors). I'd rather not, to be quite honest. Plus I have no intentions of working out the ball stability function (function of rotational velocity to ball velocity to maintain flight stability/spiral). That's just too much work for a forum post. But I'll go through the science and the initial math if that's what's necessary.

http://ramsondemand.com/threads/more-good-news-on-connor-cook.43365/#post-715433

 

[Mackeyser]

Hah! Found it!
http://ramsondemand.com/threads/car...n-the-2016-nfl-draft.43174/page-3#post-712699

I would alter my conclusion based on further analysis.

And that's this. I don't think the lack of rotation on the deep ball is due to small(er) hands, but rather the hitch in his throwing motion which isn't nearly as exaggerated on short and intermediate passes, but is exaggerated on long/hard passes. That can also be seen on some balls when he really tries to launch a ball as hard as he can into a narrow window.

But the overall point is the same. Hopefully this will suffice...

 

[VegasRam]

I was responding to your assertion that the initial velocity of an object has no bearing on the distance it will travel, which is true in and of itself. But using that to analyze QBs is utter nonsense, period, my learned friend.
I learned physics before there were calculators. I know what a differential equation is. Not impressed.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, then you're being disingenuously argumentative for what reason?

You knew very well what I was saying. I never once said that initial velocity had NO bearing on the distance it would travel.

This is what I said, exactly: Initial launch velocity does not always translate to overall distance.

That's a scientifically valid statement. Now, where do you have any quibble with that? On what basis do you justify a disagreement?

I've never said I was the "keeper of ze phyzics" on the forums, either. I know very well that others here are also in the sciences. I also know others aren't and sometimes, when the science is explained, it can be educational.

Anyway, if you just want to argue to argue, then have at it. I have no idea what brought this on...

 

[GabesHorn]

I just want to open my brand new RAMS QB Christmas present of HOPE !!! We have been missing that since we could sing Prince's song ( Party like its 1999) . Well it's not exactly 1999 YET. I can smell it getting close enough to touch it within 3 years. Never thought I'd live to see tha L.A. RAMS win a SB after they moved. It's like my name is Marty McFly and I screwed with the deloreon(sp?). I may just cry with JOY.

 

[fancents86]

Too much bit chin in here.

We will stand behind ______ and we will play good football.

 

[PartyKane]

Those Wentz throws they showed looked really bad.

This guy has literally been hyped all the way up the draft, I feel bad for whoever takes him.

 

[OnceARam]

Though all of what has been stated is true, its like a sound bite, and I am pretty certain those that watched the Entire video know exactly what I am talking about.

BTW, I saw this video as interesting only and not a support piece.

Since these comments don't tell the entire story I will paraphrase the last half of the video.

Both guys have different pocket movement.
For Goff, --the foot/body movement that give him fluidity of movement is not always good. If his balance is off, it changes body kinetics which leads to errant throws. Sometimes a lot.
Wentz has a more grounded foundation in his body Mechanics in the pocket. This makes his body mechanics better to throw from. He also has challenges with accuracy though.

MACK explains it better than I. Flippin engineers!!

So. If Goffs foot movement is a "trait", and "something that can't be taught" this will be a challenge for him.
For Wentz, I "think" time will work out his accuracy issues, or not.!!

All in all I like both guys so please don't shoot me. I just believe in telling the whole story.

:lifting:

You asked for it!

 

[PressureD41]

 

[jrry32]

Though all of what has been stated is true, its like a sound bite, and I am pretty certain those that watched the Entire video know exactly what I am talking about.

BTW, I saw this video as interesting only and not a support piece.

Since these comments don't tell the entire story I will paraphrase the last half of the video.

Both guys have different pocket movement.
For Goff, --the foot/body movement that give him fluidity of movement is not always good. If his balance is off, it changes body kinetics which leads to errant throws. Sometimes a lot.
Wentz has a more grounded foundation in his body Mechanics in the pocket. This makes his body mechanics better to throw from. He also has challenges with accuracy though.

MACK explains it better than I. Flippin engineers!!

So. If Goffs foot movement is a "trait", and "something that can't be taught" this will be a challenge for him.
For Wentz, I "think" time will work out his accuracy issues, or not.!!

All in all I like both guys so please don't shoot me. I just believe in telling the whole story.

Every QB has errant throws when they're forced to throw without setting their feet. That's life in the NFL. It's why the top QBs don't complete 90% of their passes. Goff's movement is always going to be good. It's always going to be a majorly positive aspect of his game. Because in the NFL, you have to constantly move. Wentz's more grounded foundation is not a positive. They don't make his mechanics better to throw from. Because you don't get to sit and settle in the NFL. At least, you don't get to do it consistently. You have to have nimble feet and be capable of moving and resetting quickly. As it stands now, Wentz is not very comfortable with that.

As for his accuracy, the challenges are more related to this throwing base than anything. Once he cleans that up, he'll be fine. Bortles and Jameis had similar issues.(Bortles was the opposite while Jameis was almost identical)

 

[jrry32]

Initial launch velocity does not always translate to overall distance.

I've explained it in other threads and I'll repeat why if you want to know, but if not, I'll just let that statement stand. It's mostly just explaining the simple physics of flight dynamics.

Goff has a slightly higher initial launch velocity. It does not translate to overall greater distance or a more optimal flight path on throws longer than 40 yards in the air as compared to Wentz.

The simple truth is that Wentz gets better velocity over distance on his throws than Goff does. It's something that stands out on film. Goff's arm gets underrated around here and elsewhere.(some people think it's weak which is nuts) But he doesn't have Wentz's ability to throw it with velocity over long distances.

 

[Mackeyser]

@PressureD41 Baked...in a pie?

The simple truth is that Wentz gets better velocity over distance on his throws than Goff does. It's something that stands out on film. Goff's arm gets underrated around here and elsewhere.(some people think it's weak which is nuts) But he doesn't have Wentz's ability to throw it with velocity over long distances.

Yep, pretty much. I mean on the throw I talked about and linked, he threw it 57 yards (that's yards in the air, not from LOS). That's not a weak arm. It's not 60 yards on a frozen rope, but it's not weak. He's got a live arm and excellent footwork.

And here's the good news. IF...IF he works the hitch out of his throwing motion, there's no reason he can't increase the length, accuracy and stability of his deep throws significantly and by significantly I mean by adding up to 5 yards or more, flattening out the flight path (which helps hit receivers in stride and keep safeties out of the play) and maintain the intended path because a spiral is more slippery in windy conditions, thus the path is less prone to being altered.

Like I said with Chris Long's footwork, if Goff works on his throwing motion, he will really open up a portion of his game that only a few players at his position have access to right now.

I think that's a positive thing.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Those Wentz throws they showed looked really bad.

This guy has literally been hyped all the way up the draft, I feel bad for whoever takes him.

 

[Roman Snow]

.

i think i stopped watching sports science after they showed mardy gilyard, blindfolded, running a route and catching a ball.

then he played for the rams and we found out he could neither run routes properly or catch a football.

.

So then the COACH was given a blindfold...and a cigarette.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I love all the physics in this thread. Quick, someone calculate the luminosity of a star while I go jump my girlfriend.

 

[Mackeyser]

I'm too tired to calculate... I did a LOT of jumping today...