Saffold coming back soon? Why bother...

[bwdenverram]

I find this thread a bit whiny. Why do we feel the need to complain about a player's fragility, when we should be hoping he comes back as strong as possible, for the teams' sake?

No doubt, Saffold's health problems are troubling, but if he's not giving up, neither am I.

IMO, some of the honesty/reality on the forum needs to take a gut check.

What's with this forum this week? This thread is ridiculous. Our starting RT is coming back earlier than we expected and people are unhappy about this? Are you kidding me? What's going on here?

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

bitch about our second best tackle, bitch about our rookie wr who already has 2 tds, bitch about our hc who has us believing the rams can win every game they play, bitch about our dbs who are trying to find their feet with two rookie safeties out there.

i came here to get away from the incessant bitching.

.

For me, this is 100% spot on. I've noticed a lot of new people on the site lately. Which is great. But, there was also a lot of negativity going on Sunday. And we had a lot of people starting to bitch at eachother. I didn't like it, and guys like Stranger we're getting pretty fired up about it. The last thing we want is for THIS place to be anything like THAT place. We all have our opinions but when you start talking negative about players on this team I just don't think it's the right place for it. Roger Saffold has been injured a lot. BUT, when he is healthy he makes this team better. And for the record, I don't believe he ever publicly said anything about the position change. I think it was media and his own agent that started it. I think he's really been pretty classy about it. As RQ said, it's not so much what the thread is about, it was the context. The guy has had some really bad luck but saying crappy things about him personally is just not cool. I don't recall anyone starting an "I don't care if Amendola comes back thread."

 

[kurtfaulk]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

.

It absolutely will not. I guarantee that 100%.

i know that man. that sentence was my just own piece of hyperbole.

but when i read some of the threads here today i'm like, what the?

why wouldn't you want the rams best player at rt on the field. crazy.

.

 

[-X-]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

.

It absolutely will not. I guarantee that 100%.

i know that man. that sentence was my just own piece of hyperbole.

but when i read some of the threads here today i'm like, what the?

why wouldn't you want the rams best player at rt on the field. crazy.

.

Agreed. Again, I think a lot of that talk is borne of frustration, and I can understand that. Even though I was only able to follow along by phone that day (NFL Mobile), even I was guilty of saying, "You've GOT to be shitting me...." I think people are just really tired of having an O-line that can't start and finish a season together.

If someone thinks Rodger doesn't give the team the best option at RT, then I'll join you in your exasperation. But Barksdale is no slouch either. I'd take him over a less than 100% healthy Saffold. All things being equal though, with both being healthy, I'd take Rodger every day and twice on Sunday (double-header even).

 

[Stranger]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

.

It absolutely will not. I guarantee that 100%.

(here comes my obligatory overly long post now)

RamStalk is full of people who intentionally antagonize other posters with extremely hyperbolic posts. That's just not going to happen here. We encourage people to offer alternative POVs, and while that may offend the senses of people who don't want to see anything negative about this team, it's a necessary component to a successful message board. As long as people are able to communicate their concerns about a player or the team without making sweeping assessments about said player or team (as a whole), then I don't see what the problem is.

People should take that as an invitation to put together an intelligent counter debate, which will in turn sharpen their own debate skills, and increase their knowledge of the team and the game. I know that my initial reaction to posts that contain negative assessments about the team or its players is defensive, but that's just the way I elect to view the game. Like a kid. Others on here are more concerned with the Rams as an entity than any of its players, and that's why you'll see posts that hone in on what they deem is a weak component that keeps the entity from achieving excellence. These two factions will always clash, but it's important to remember that we all want the same thing in the end.

As long as everyone approaches their posts under the premise of "Would I be offended if someone spoke to me like this?", then I think we can avoid offending other people. I can't give any advice that would keep people from being offended, because that's just a personality trait individual to each person. In other words, nobody knows what offends someone else until it's communicated to the "offender."

You're in good hands here, kurt. All of us (staff) try to cultivate the best possible environment for the members here, and we make every effort to ensure that conversations are well within the guidelines of the established rules. And let me just add this. If I didn't ban the half dozen people I've already banned, this place would already BE like RamStalk. I'm very familiar with the "type", and you have my word that those people will never be a member of this board. Ever.

I think people just need to understand that what you say on any board can be very easily misconstrued. So just take that little extra time to make sure that what you're trying to communicate is done so in a manner that leaves little room for misinterpretation, and isn't overtly aggressive in nature. An easy method for me is to pretend that I'm talking about someone's kid. Because there are posters who are THAT protective of players. And that's fine by me. I can tell you your kid is a shitty shortstop without actually saying that. lol.

With all due respect X, what would you call a thread complaining about the return of our starting right tackle? And then another thread slamming Tavon. IMHO these are hyperbolic.

I got pretty PO'd (at other posters) during the 1st 3qtrs of the Atlanta game, as those in the GD thread can attest to, and I'm not very happy about this tail of what I see as its continuance.

Please please please don't let this place go down a trajectory that will end up in a place we all came here to escape. I know no one wants that, but I see the snowball already startin'

 

[-X-]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

.

It absolutely will not. I guarantee that 100%.

(here comes my obligatory overly long post now)

RamStalk is full of people who intentionally antagonize other posters with extremely hyperbolic posts. That's just not going to happen here. We encourage people to offer alternative POVs, and while that may offend the senses of people who don't want to see anything negative about this team, it's a necessary component to a successful message board. As long as people are able to communicate their concerns about a player or the team without making sweeping assessments about said player or team (as a whole), then I don't see what the problem is.

People should take that as an invitation to put together an intelligent counter debate, which will in turn sharpen their own debate skills, and increase their knowledge of the team and the game. I know that my initial reaction to posts that contain negative assessments about the team or its players is defensive, but that's just the way I elect to view the game. Like a kid. Others on here are more concerned with the Rams as an entity than any of its players, and that's why you'll see posts that hone in on what they deem is a weak component that keeps the entity from achieving excellence. These two factions will always clash, but it's important to remember that we all want the same thing in the end.

As long as everyone approaches their posts under the premise of "Would I be offended if someone spoke to me like this?", then I think we can avoid offending other people. I can't give any advice that would keep people from being offended, because that's just a personality trait individual to each person. In other words, nobody knows what offends someone else until it's communicated to the "offender."

You're in good hands here, kurt. All of us (staff) try to cultivate the best possible environment for the members here, and we make every effort to ensure that conversations are well within the guidelines of the established rules. And let me just add this. If I didn't ban the half dozen people I've already banned, this place would already BE like RamStalk. I'm very familiar with the "type", and you have my word that those people will never be a member of this board. Ever.

I think people just need to understand that what you say on any board can be very easily misconstrued. So just take that little extra time to make sure that what you're trying to communicate is done so in a manner that leaves little room for misinterpretation, and isn't overtly aggressive in nature. An easy method for me is to pretend that I'm talking about someone's kid. Because there are posters who are THAT protective of players. And that's fine by me. I can tell you your kid is a shitty shortstop without actually saying that. lol.

With all due respect X, what would you call a thread complaining about the return of our starting right tackle? And then another thread slamming Tavon. IMHO these are hyperbolic.

I got pretty PO'd (at other posters) during the 1st 3qtrs of the Atlanta game, as those in the GD thread can attest to, and I'm not very happy about this tail of what I see as its continuance.

Please please please don't let this place go down a trajectory that will end up in a place we all came here to escape. I know no one wants that, but I see the snowball already startin'

I read it when it came up. I know max, and I know when he's frustrated. I also know when a post is directed at someone else in particular (who isn't a member here), so that's the way I read it also. Unfortunately max, that guy isn't a member here anymore (nor will be), so your vendetta is always going to fall short. If I may, I suggest you let that stuff fall away and concentrate on talking to *us* now.

Was it offensive to say he's made of glass? I dunno. Maybe it is to some. I do know that Rodger puts in a ton of weight room time, he's a real team player, and it's certainly not his intention to get injured and fuck everyone else's plans up. So maybe it was uncalled for when you look at it in that context. For you, Stranger, I think you should take these opportunities to coherently communicate your counter points and actually tell the OP why you find those kinds of remarks personally offensive or unwarranted. Max is a reasonable guy. If you approach the problem logically and respectfully, I'm sure the two of you can easily reach an accord.

Or just tell him to shut the fuck up. That's what works best for me. :lol:

 

[albefree69]

X hitting pay dirt:
I've learned more about the game and this team when I've had to debate "haters" or "bashers", than I've ever learned as a player. I actually do physical research and will go to great lengths to THOROUGHLY debunk an argument that I know is bunk right from the get-go. As such, I've come to enjoy being a super homer for that very reason. I see a select few other posters doing the same thing, and reading those things also increases my knowledge. So if people are offended by criticism of a player or team, then take the time and put together a very detailed retort that encapsulates everything you think it will take to sway someone's opinion*.

I like that. I like that a lot. :bg:

 

[Thordaddy]

I find this thread a bit whiny. Why do we feel the need to complain about a player's fragility, when we should be hoping he comes back as strong as possible, for the teams' sake?

No doubt, Saffold's health problems are troubling, but if he's not giving up, neither am I.

IMO, some of the honesty/reality on the forum needs to take a gut check.

What's with this forum this week? This thread is ridiculous. Our starting RT is coming back earlier than we expected and people are unhappy about this? Are you kidding me? What's going on here?

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

bitch about our second best tackle, bitch about our rookie wr who already has 2 tds, bitch about our hc who has us believing the rams can win every game they play, bitch about our dbs who are trying to find their feet with two rookie safeties out there.

i came here to get away from the incessant bitching.

.

For me, this is 100% spot on. I've noticed a lot of new people on the site lately. Which is great. But, there was also a lot of negativity going on Sunday. And we had a lot of people starting to bitch at eachother. I didn't like it, and guys like Stranger we're getting pretty fired up about it. The last thing we want is for THIS place to be anything like THAT place. We all have our opinions but when you start talking negative about players on this team I just don't think it's the right place for it. Roger Saffold has been injured a lot. BUT, when he is healthy he makes this team better. And for the record, I don't believe he ever publicly said anything about the position change. I think it was media and his own agent that started it. I think he's really been pretty classy about it. As RQ said, it's not so much what the thread is about, it was the context. The guy has had some really bad luck but saying crappy things about him personally is just not cool. I don't recall anyone starting an "I don't care if Amendola comes back thread."

Well FWIW gents deciding to CALL what someone else decides to post as whining/ as bitching doesn't pull it back from that fate. As I said in other threads, CHARACTERIZING peoples arguments is not discussing it amounts to attacking a poster.

That was dumb,that is whining, that is bitching that is yada whatever, labels the person who issued it as a whiner, a bitcher, dumb.

You can defeat an argument without insulting the person who issued it, but not if you portray them that way.
Yeah we've gotten a lot of new posters ,I don't pretend to have learned to know them all but for the most part they all seem to have something to offer,but this place aint never gonna be like Ramstalk ,these mods won't let it.

Dick weeds get weeded here,count on it.

Yeah I noticed the negativity Sunday and thankfully the Rams did come back cuz I was beginning to think I was going to catch hell for blowin sunshine up peoples asses.

We got a good team FINALLY, we have a bright future and this season is gonna be fun ,I BELIEVE.

 

[had]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

bitch about our second best tackle, bitch about our rookie wr who already has 2 tds, bitch about our hc who has us believing the rams can win every game they play, bitch about our dbs who are trying to find their feet with two rookie safeties out there.

i came here to get away from the incessant bitching.

.

Well, a few things about this comparison of yours:

--I got a computer virus at that f'ing post dispatch website a few years back. No skank virus around here that I've come across.

--How dull would it be if everyone agreed with each other and said the same things? Part of the appeal of a message board is lively debate. A big part.

--I can see how a guy would watch Saffold limp off the field early in game 2 of the season and emit a disgusted laugh. It is kind of disgusting.

--You'll never escape 'incessant bitching' as long as you walk this earth. So deal.

--Something else I can't think of anymore. Something about it being necessary in a community for there to be a villain. But whatever.

--You know how you walk into a bar, and it's empty, and you get a little disappointed? Well, when it's full, there're always a bunch of aholes there. You deal. Or, abide.

 

[Rabid Ram]

I find this thread a bit whiny. Why do we feel the need to complain about a player's fragility, when we should be hoping he comes back as strong as possible, for the teams' sake?

No doubt, Saffold's health problems are troubling, but if he's not giving up, neither am I.

IMO, some of the honesty/reality on the forum needs to take a gut check.

What's with this forum this week? This thread is ridiculous. Our starting RT is coming back earlier than we expected and people are unhappy about this? Are you kidding me? What's going on here?

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

bitch about our second best tackle, bitch about our rookie wr who already has 2 tds, bitch about our hc who has us believing the rams can win every game they play, bitch about our dbs who are trying to find their feet with two rookie safeties out there.

i came here to get away from the incessant bitching.

.

For me, this is 100% spot on. I've noticed a lot of new people on the site lately. Which is great. But, there was also a lot of negativity going on Sunday. And we had a lot of people starting to bitch at eachother. I didn't like it, and guys like Stranger we're getting pretty fired up about it. The last thing we want is for THIS place to be anything like THAT place. We all have our opinions but when you start talking negative about players on this team I just don't think it's the right place for it. Roger Saffold has been injured a lot. BUT, when he is healthy he makes this team better. And for the record, I don't believe he ever publicly said anything about the position change. I think it was media and his own agent that started it. I think he's really been pretty classy about it. As RQ said, it's not so much what the thread is about, it was the context. The guy has had some really bad luck but saying crappy things about him personally is just not cool. I don't recall anyone starting an "I don't care if Amendola comes back thread."

Well FWIW gents deciding to CALL what someone else decides to post as whining/ as bitching doesn't pull it back from that fate. As I said in other threads, CHARACTERIZING peoples arguments is not discussing it amounts to attacking a poster.

That was dumb,that is whining, that is bitching that is yada whatever, labels the person who issued it as a whiner, a bitcher, dumb.

You can defeat an argument without insulting the person who issued it, but not if you portray them that way.

Yeah we've gotten a lot of new posters ,I don't pretend to have learned to know them all but for the most part they all seem to have something to offer,but this place aint never gonna be like Ramstalk ,these mods won't let it.

Dick weeds get weeded here,count on it.

Yeah I noticed the negativity Sunday and thankfully the Rams did come back cuz I was beginning to think I was going to catch hell for blowin sunshine up peoples asses.

We got a good team FINALLY, we have a bright future and this season is gonna be fun ,I BELIEVE.

100 percent agree

Sent from my SCH-R760X using Tapatalk 2

 

[Stranger]

day by day, as more and more people join this site, it will head down the road of a place like ramstalk.

.

It absolutely will not. I guarantee that 100%.

(here comes my obligatory overly long post now)

RamStalk is full of people who intentionally antagonize other posters with extremely hyperbolic posts. That's just not going to happen here. We encourage people to offer alternative POVs, and while that may offend the senses of people who don't want to see anything negative about this team, it's a necessary component to a successful message board. As long as people are able to communicate their concerns about a player or the team without making sweeping assessments about said player or team (as a whole), then I don't see what the problem is.

People should take that as an invitation to put together an intelligent counter debate, which will in turn sharpen their own debate skills, and increase their knowledge of the team and the game. I know that my initial reaction to posts that contain negative assessments about the team or its players is defensive, but that's just the way I elect to view the game. Like a kid. Others on here are more concerned with the Rams as an entity than any of its players, and that's why you'll see posts that hone in on what they deem is a weak component that keeps the entity from achieving excellence. These two factions will always clash, but it's important to remember that we all want the same thing in the end.

As long as everyone approaches their posts under the premise of "Would I be offended if someone spoke to me like this?", then I think we can avoid offending other people. I can't give any advice that would keep people from being offended, because that's just a personality trait individual to each person. In other words, nobody knows what offends someone else until it's communicated to the "offender."

You're in good hands here, kurt. All of us (staff) try to cultivate the best possible environment for the members here, and we make every effort to ensure that conversations are well within the guidelines of the established rules. And let me just add this. If I didn't ban the half dozen people I've already banned, this place would already BE like RamStalk. I'm very familiar with the "type", and you have my word that those people will never be a member of this board. Ever.

I think people just need to understand that what you say on any board can be very easily misconstrued. So just take that little extra time to make sure that what you're trying to communicate is done so in a manner that leaves little room for misinterpretation, and isn't overtly aggressive in nature. An easy method for me is to pretend that I'm talking about someone's kid. Because there are posters who are THAT protective of players. And that's fine by me. I can tell you your kid is a shitty shortstop without actually saying that. lol.

With all due respect X, what would you call a thread complaining about the return of our starting right tackle? And then another thread slamming Tavon. IMHO these are hyperbolic.

I got pretty PO'd (at other posters) during the 1st 3qtrs of the Atlanta game, as those in the GD thread can attest to, and I'm not very happy about this tail of what I see as its continuance.

Please please please don't let this place go down a trajectory that will end up in a place we all came here to escape. I know no one wants that, but I see the snowball already startin'

I read it when it came up. I know max, and I know when he's frustrated. I also know when a post is directed at someone else in particular (who isn't a member here), so that's the way I read it also. Unfortunately max, that guy isn't a member here anymore (nor will be), so your vendetta is always going to fall short. If I may, I suggest you let that stuff fall away and concentrate on talking to *us* now.

Was it offensive to say he's made of glass? I dunno. Maybe it is to some. I do know that Rodger puts in a ton of weight room time, he's a real team player, and it's certainly not his intention to get injured and fuck everyone else's plans up. So maybe it was uncalled for when you look at it in that context. For you, Stranger, I think you should take these opportunities to coherently communicate your counter points and actually tell the OP why you find those kinds of remarks personally offensive or unwarranted. Max is a reasonable guy. If you approach the problem logically and respectfully, I'm sure the two of you can easily reach an accord.

Or just tell him to shut the fuck up. That's what works best for me. :lol:

When it comes to the Rams and Game day, I dunno how to speak coherently

It's all emotion, brother. Just like back at the Coliseum. I might have been the youngest kid in my section, but I gave everybody hell when they gave our team s-h-i-t. For me, nothing changed other than a few decades

I guess I'll just tell 'em to F.O..... that'll work.

 

[StevenG-BR]

Honestly, since it's unlikely we'll resign Saffold in FA (unless he's dirt cheap from injuries), why not play Barksdale for the time being and see what he can do?

If he ups is game, maybe we won't have to use a high draft pick on a RT.

 

[-X-]

Honestly, since it's unlikely we'll resign Saffold in FA (unless he's dirt cheap from injuries), why not play Barksdale for the time being and see what he can do?

If he ups is game, maybe we won't have to use a high draft pick on a RT.

That's one way of looking at it. But it's also important to put the best player on the field, so I guess it all depends on how the coaches (particularly Boudreau) feel about these two. I wouldn't limit Saffold's PT simply because he got injured again though.

And welcome to the board, Steven. Does that "BR" suffix refer to Bleacher Report?

 

[StevenG-BR]

Honestly, since it's unlikely we'll resign Saffold in FA (unless he's dirt cheap from injuries), why not play Barksdale for the time being and see what he can do?

If he ups is game, maybe we won't have to use a high draft pick on a RT.

And welcome to the board, Steven. Does that "BR" suffix refer to Bleacher Report?

Sure does.

Rams Talk at STLtoday has become unbearable. I thought it was time to give a real Rams forum a shot

 

[-X-]

Marc Lillibridge wonders if Saffold's days are St. Louis is numbered? "Something must be done"

(Starts 4 minutes in...)

[101]https://soundcloud.com/101sports/marc-lillibridge-wonders-if[/101]

 

[Ram Quixote]

Well FWIW gents deciding to CALL what someone else decides to post as whining/ as bitching doesn't pull it back from that fate. As I said in other threads, CHARACTERIZING peoples arguments is not discussing it amounts to attacking a poster.

That was dumb,that is whining, that is bitching that is yada whatever, labels the person who issued it as a whiner, a bitcher, dumb.

You can defeat an argument without insulting the person who issued it, but not if you portray them that way.
Yeah we've gotten a lot of new posters ,I don't pretend to have learned to know them all but for the most part they all seem to have something to offer,but this place aint never gonna be like Ramstalk ,these mods won't let it.

Dick weeds get weeded here,count on it.

Yeah I noticed the negativity Sunday and thankfully the Rams did come back cuz I was beginning to think I was going to catch hell for blowin sunshine up peoples asses.

We got a good team FINALLY, we have a bright future and this season is gonna be fun ,I BELIEVE.

In my defense, what really pissed me off was the thread title ... Why bother... it felt fatalistic; just give up, Rodger. After Sunday's game, when nobody gave up, it just pushed my button. You know, this is sports. Nobody gives up!

 

[…..]

In my defense, what really pissed me off was the thread title ... Why bother... it felt fatalistic; just give up, Rodger. After Sunday's game, when nobody gave up, it just pushed my button. You know, this is sports. Nobody gives up!

Again I agree with this angle regarding Saffold.

You BOTHER because Roger Saffold gives us our best opportunity to win...no debating that.

So I hope he comes back soon and stays healthy. Nuff said.

 

[bwdenverram]

Ok, as Paul would say, time for a group hug, bring it in :cheese:

 

[RamFan503]

Honestly, since it's unlikely we'll resign Saffold in FA (unless he's dirt cheap from injuries), why not play Barksdale for the time being and see what he can do?

If he ups is game, maybe we won't have to use a high draft pick on a RT.

Did I miss something? Are we forfeiting the season? Y'know, I might agree with this logic if we were out of the playoff hunt. But we are 1-1 with 14 games left to play and we lost our one game after spotting a supposed SB contender 21 points and losing by 7. You absolutely have to play your best players to give the TEAM a chance to go as far as they can. There are several players on this team that may not have a future beyond this season. You don't play your second tier players after two games like it is some preseason game.

 

[Thordaddy]

Well FWIW gents deciding to CALL what someone else decides to post as whining/ as bitching doesn't pull it back from that fate. As I said in other threads, CHARACTERIZING peoples arguments is not discussing it amounts to attacking a poster.

That was dumb,that is whining, that is bitching that is yada whatever, labels the person who issued it as a whiner, a bitcher, dumb.

You can defeat an argument without insulting the person who issued it, but not if you portray them that way.
Yeah we've gotten a lot of new posters ,I don't pretend to have learned to know them all but for the most part they all seem to have something to offer,but this place aint never gonna be like Ramstalk ,these mods won't let it.

Dick weeds get weeded here,count on it.

Yeah I noticed the negativity Sunday and thankfully the Rams did come back cuz I was beginning to think I was going to catch hell for blowin sunshine up peoples asses.

We got a good team FINALLY, we have a bright future and this season is gonna be fun ,I BELIEVE.

In my defense, what really pissed me off was the thread title ... Why bother... it felt fatalistic; just give up, Rodger. After Sunday's game, when nobody gave up, it just pushed my button. You know, this is sports. Nobody gives up!

Man I hope I didn't sound like I was calling anyone in particular out, cuz FWIW that would be as offensive as anything.

It's just that we all express our concerns differently and our choices of words are what they are and I am no one to tell others that they are hard to swallow, cuz I know where that leads so.

Been around a long time ,and seen too many pissin matches in my life ,I love how this forum seems to turn away from the cliff repeatedly,anything I offered was doing what I thought I could to "turn it away".
We got way too much to be happy about even the week after a loss (which I think effects tenor of a board) to be fighting round here.

We've got two tough games ahead of us ( might be three dunno two is as far as I'm lookin) hopefully ONE is as far as our team is lookin ( could well be this last loss will keep us from lookin past Dallas at who we play the next week.
I would agree with you negativity is not something I really want to hear but we are 1-1 and so the belief we need to be better is not misplaced.

 

[HometownBoy]

Honestly, since it's unlikely we'll resign Saffold in FA (unless he's dirt cheap from injuries), why not play Barksdale for the time being and see what he can do?

If he ups is game, maybe we won't have to use a high draft pick on a RT.

Did I miss something? Are we forfeiting the season? Y'know, I might agree with this logic if we were out of the playoff hunt. But we are 1-1 with 14 games left to play and we lost our one game after spotting a supposed SB contender 21 points and losing by 7. You absolutely have to play your best players to give the TEAM a chance to go as far as they can. There are several players on this team that may not have a future beyond this season. You don't play your second tier players after two games like it is some preseason game.

I don't think he's talking about the Rams.

I think he's banking on the Skins not righting the ship like a lot of fans are already banking on.