Pick a 2016 QB

[jrry32]

I see the answer because I've seen it work and it makes too much sense. But, I'm not a traditionalist when it comes to the position.

You've seen it work...possibly. Can you point to a few examples? And when it worked, how long did it work for?

 

[Memphis Ram]

You've seen it work...possibly. Can you point to a few examples? And when it worked, how long did it work for?

Recent History?
Denver 2011 - Ended because Elway was a traditonalist AND wanted Manning.
Washington 2012 - RGIII got hurt and they tried to make a classic pocket passer out of him.
49ers 2012 & 2013 - Loaded up with WRs in and tried to make a classic pocket passer out of him.
Panthers 2011 - Current and going strong playing Newton to his strengths. They currently have Michael Oher playing LT and a kid off the Rams practice squad starting at RT. This along with a group no named WRs.

 

[jrry32]

Recent History?
Denver 2011 - Ended because Elway was a traditonalist AND wanted Manning.
Washington 2012 - RGIII got hurt and they tried to make a classic pocket passer out of him.
49ers 2012 & 2013 - Loaded up with WRs in and tried to make a classic pocket passer out of him.
Panthers 2011 - Current and going strong playing Newton to his strengths. They currently have Michael Oher playing LT and a kid off the Rams practice squad starting at RT. This along with a group no named WRs.

Tebow with Denver is a stretch. Yea, they won 8 games and made the playoffs but the offense struggled. You cite Washington and San Francisco and say that they tried to make a pocket passer out of the QBs which is why it failed...I think it's a bit different.

I think they tried to make Kaep and Griffin into more traditional QBs because they recognized defenses were adjusting and didn't want to get stuck when they did adjust. And that's exactly what happened to Kaepernick in San Fan. Defenses adjusted. He got figured out.

I don't really consider Newton to be your typical guy. He's a very good passer. Has progressed a lot in that role and can operate now as a traditional passer. The running definitely helps but the guy is more of a traditional QB that can run than a running QB that can pass. He's been developed well.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Tebow with Denver is a stretch. Yea, they won 8 games and made the playoffs but the offense struggled. You cite Washington and San Francisco and say that they tried to make a pocket passer out of the QBs which is why it failed...I think it's a bit different.

I think they tried to make Kaep and Griffin into more traditional QBs because they recognized defenses were adjusting and didn't want to get stuck when they did adjust. And that's exactly what happened to Kaepernick in San Fan. Defenses adjusted. He got figured out.

I don't really consider Newton to be your typical guy. He's a very good passer. Has progressed a lot in that role and can operate now as a traditional passer. The running definitely helps but the guy is more of a traditional QB that can run than a running QB that can pass. He's been developed well.

Tebow a stretch because they only won eight games? He only started about 10 or 11 of them. The offense struggled to score what you may have liked, but they kept the defense off the field and scored enough to win.

And defenses may have been adjusting, but the Redskins and 49ers were still winning football games. The previously 12-4 49ers not only had Crabtree returning from injury (only played 5 games), but they also added Brandon Lloyd and Stevie Johnson to go along with Boldin. Again, they were 12-4 the prior season without all the fire power and playing Kaepernick to his strengths. And there is an interesting article on the RGIII situation on the ESPN site I read Shanahan points out that RGIII (demands) and the owner were just as, if not more, guilty of the idea of making him a pocket passer as the coaching staff.

Now Newton has developed over the years. But, he is still has is still being used to his strengths, hence the 565 rushing attempts for almost 3,000 yards and 40 rushing TDs to date.

 

[jrry32]

Tebow a stretch because they only won eight games? He only started about 10 or 11 of them. The offense struggled to score what you may have liked, but they kept the defense off the field and scored enough to win.

And defenses may have been adjusting, but the Redskins and 49ers were still winning football games. The previously 12-4 49ers not only had Crabtree returning from injury (only played 5 games), but they also added Brandon Lloyd and Stevie Johnson to go along with Boldin. Again, they were 12-4 the prior season without all the fire power and playing Kaepernick to his strengths. And there is an interesting article on the RGIII situation on the ESPN site I read Shanahan points out that RGIII (demands) and the owner were just as, if not more, guilty of the idea of making him a pocket passer as the coaching staff.

Now Newton has developed over the years. But, he is still has is still being used to his strengths, hence the 565 rushing attempts for almost 3,000 yards and 40 rushing TDs to date.

In the 13 games he started (counting the playoffs), the Broncos went 8-5 but only averaged around 17.3 offensive points per game.

The 49ers were winning games due to other parts of the team. And then Kaepernick fell completely apart this year when he couldn't rely on the rest of the team to carry him.

My problem with this strategy is with the long term plan. It doesn't seem like you think it's a short term option. It seems like you believe it's a strategy for the long term. I don't. I think it's something that can hold you over in the interim if you have to do it. But I think it's flawed from the standpoint of a long term plan.

 

[Memphis Ram]

In the 13 games he started (counting the playoffs), the Broncos went 8-5 but only averaged around 17.3 offensive points per game.

The 49ers were winning games due to other parts of the team. And then Kaepernick fell completely apart this year when he couldn't rely on the rest of the team to carry him.

My problem with this strategy is with the long term plan. It doesn't seem like you think it's a short term option. It seems like you believe it's a strategy for the long term. I don't. I think it's something that can hold you over in the interim if you have to do it. But I think it's flawed from the standpoint of a long term plan.

When they were winning, how were the Broncos & 49ers looking on turnovers and time of possession. I really don't know. Both teams did enough to win and that's the bottom line.

Kaepernick fell apart because they never went back to what he was doing his first couple of seasons. For goodness sakes, he was even spending time with Kurt Warner this offseason trying to conform. And with the exception of your rare, but hard to find franchise pocket passes, all QBs far apart without support. It's simply not a one man game.

Quite frankly, I don't care if it's long term or short term. The goal is the win the Super Bowl and by any legal means necessary. And only one season at a time is all that matters. That said, I do believe that taking advantage of the glut of talent available that aren't one of the few drop back pocket passers and devaluing the position while playing these guys to their strengths can work long-term.

No matter what offense is run. No matter how defenses may adjust. Quality talent, creativity and most importantly, proper execution can still lead to success on offense.

 

[jrry32]

When they were winning, how were the Broncos & 49ers looking on turnovers and time of possession. I really don't know. Both teams did enough to win and that's the bottom line.

Kaepernick fell apart because they never went back to what he was doing his first couple of seasons. For goodness sakes, he was even spending time with Kurt Warner this offseason trying to conform. And with the exception of your rare, but hard to find franchise pocket passes, all QBs far apart without support. It's simply not a one man game.

Quite frankly, I don't care if it's long term or short term. The goal is the win the Super Bowl and by any legal means necessary. And only one season at a time is all that matters. That said, I do believe that taking advantage of the glut of talent available that aren't one of the few drop back pocket passers and devaluing the position while playing these guys to their strengths can work long-term.

No matter what offense is run. No matter how defenses may adjust. Quality talent, creativity and most importantly, proper execution can still lead to success on offense.

I don't disagree fully but I do disagree to an extent. It gets harder to execute when defenses figure out your limitations. In that case, their adjustments can make it very difficult for your offense to execute.

As for Kaepernick, I think he recognized the limitations in his game and knew he had to improve. Defenses were taking away what he did best.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I don't disagree fully but I do disagree to an extent. It gets harder to execute when defenses figure out your limitations. In that case, their adjustments can make it very difficult for your offense to execute.

As for Kaepernick, I think he recognized the limitations in his game and knew he had to improve. Defenses were taking away what he did best.

We are going to have to disagree, because I still believe that the 49ers took away what he did best and tried to change him into something he wasn't and even had him believing that he had to conform. And there are a few hardcore 49ers fans that I work with (where I get most my info) that agree with me.

Defenses may be able to figure out limitations, but they have still got to have the manpower to execute their plans. Everyone knew how to stop the GSOT, but few actually had the manpower to do it (Tampa, Giants, Saints). And if a team is running something that the rest of the league is not, it's that much harder to do, IMO.

 

[DCH]

We are going to have to disagree, because I still believe that the 49ers took away what he did best and tried to change him into something he wasn't and even had him believing that he had to conform. And there are a few hardcore 49ers fans that I work with (where I get most my info) that agree with me.

Defenses may be able to figure out limitations, but they have still got to have the manpower to execute their plans. Everyone knew how to stop the GSOT, but few actually had the manpower to do it (Tampa, Giants, Saints). And if a team is running something that the rest of the league is not, it's that much harder to do, IMO.

I have to side with @jrry32 on this one... it seems like a run-first QB can have short-term success, but it's no way to build for the long haul. I see a lot of similarities to the Wildcat - if an NFL defense is prepared for it, it's not going to be as successful as a traditional passing attack.

Now, if you have that rare QB who can make plays with his legs but is also an effective passer, that's a guy you can build around, because he can hurt you in many ways. Vick was like that in his prime. Steve Young was like that. Randall Cunningham. Russell (ugh) Wilson.

But while running QBs add an element to the game, if it's at the expense of being able to operate a sophisticated passing attack, I believe it's unsustainable and NFL defenses and D-coordinators will scheme their way to beating them after an adjustment period.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I have to side with @jrry32 on this one... it seems like a run-first QB can have short-term success, but it's no way to build for the long haul. I see a lot of similarities to the Wildcat - if an NFL defense is prepared for it, it's not going to be as successful as a traditional passing attack.

Now, if you have that rare QB who can make plays with his legs but is also an effective passer, that's a guy you can build around, because he can hurt you in many ways. Vick was like that in his prime. Steve Young was like that. Randall Cunningham. Russell (ugh) Wilson.

But while running QBs add an element to the game, if it's at the expense of being able to operate a sophisticated passing attack, I believe it's unsustainable and NFL defenses and D-coordinators will scheme their way to beating them after an adjustment period.

But, is the goal to build for the long haul? Or is the goal to win football games each season?

D-Coordinators can scheme a way to beat any offense right now. But, they've still got to have the personnel and have them out execute the competition.

Now there can be some similarities to the Wildcat with a run-first QB. But, unlike most who have used such a scheme, I'm suggesting that the threat of a pass would still exist. Have an OC who lacks creativity with a QB who cannot throw at all and it will never work. You might as well stick a RB back there. But, that's not what I've suggested at all.

Besides, a traditional passing attack is only successful when your team has one of the few quality pocket passers that exist in the league at one point in time. Meanwhile teams have held themselves hostage for years ignoring a glut of available talent, hoping to strike gold and be one of the lucky ones to find their franchise pocket passer (Rams haven't had one since Bulger). And defenses have figured those teams lacking such talent at the position out, too. The difference is, most of those players aren't a threat to do much of anything with their feet.

 

[DCH]

But, is the goal to build for the long haul? Or is the goal to win football games each season?

It has to be both, out of necessity.

D-Coordinators can scheme a way to beat any offense right now. But, they've still got to have the personnel and have them out execute the competition.

Now there can be some similarities to the Wildcat with a run-first QB. But, unlike most who have used such a scheme, I'm suggesting that the threat of a pass would still exist. Have an OC who lacks creativity with a QB who cannot throw at all and it will never work. You might as well stick a RB back there. But, that's not what I've suggested at all.

My problem with your assertion is not that there won't be the threat of a pass, but that there won't be much threat of a pass. There are very few guys out there with both the ability to run like a RB and the ability to read defenses, make decisions and hit on complex passing attacks. Kaepernick, to me, is the perfect example - he's good when his choices are primary read or run, but defenses can scheme to clamp down on a primary passer, and teams like the Rams have shown that you can put a Barron/McDonald/Ogletree type to "spy" the QB and whomp the shit out of him if he pulls it down.

Besides, a traditional passing attack is only successful when your team has one of the few quality pocket passers that exist in the league at one point in time. Meanwhile teams have held themselves hostage for years ignoring a glut of available talent, hoping to strike gold and be one of the lucky ones to find their franchise pocket passer (Rams haven't had one since Bulger). And defenses have figured those teams lacking such talent at the position out, too. The difference is, most of those players aren't a threat to do much of anything with their feet.

I think this is the major difference between your POV and mine - I think there are way, way more QBs available who can make reads and throws in a moderately complex passing attack than there are who can reliably complete, as they say, "all the throws" and also run like a deer. RG3 was the one I thought most likely to be like that, but his injuries and inability to evolve the passing game have left him pretty much useless.

If a team takes away a guy like Kaepernick's ability to run - and they will - he needs to be able to operate a reasonably efficient and effective passing attack. Those guys are rarer - yet, admittedly, more effective - than guys who can stand in the pocket, survey the field, and put the ball where it needs to be.

My opinion is that you're chasing a unicorn, whereas good pocket passers are just fancy horses - less awesome, but also less mythical.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

I vote JF

#2

 

[jrry32]

It has to be both, out of necessity.


My problem with your assertion is not that there won't be the threat of a pass, but that there won't be much threat of a pass. There are very few guys out there with both the ability to run like a RB and the ability to read defenses, make decisions and hit on complex passing attacks. Kaepernick, to me, is the perfect example - he's good when his choices are primary read or run, but defenses can scheme to clamp down on a primary passer, and teams like the Rams have shown that you can put a Barron/McDonald/Ogletree type to "spy" the QB and whomp the crap out of him if he pulls it down.


I think this is the major difference between your POV and mine - I think there are way, way more QBs available who can make reads and throws in a moderately complex passing attack than there are who can reliably complete, as they say, "all the throws" and also run like a deer. RG3 was the one I thought most likely to be like that, but his injuries and inability to evolve the passing game have left him pretty much useless.

If a team takes away a guy like Kaepernick's ability to run - and they will - he needs to be able to operate a reasonably efficient and effective passing attack. Those guys are rarer - yet, admittedly, more effective - than guys who can stand in the pocket, survey the field, and put the ball where it needs to be.

My opinion is that you're chasing a unicorn, whereas good pocket passers are just fancy horses - less awesome, but also less mythical.

Speaking of RGIII and Kaepernick, if we were to bring Adam Gase as HC and Mike McCoy as OC this off-season, I'd be good with us grabbing one in FA as a bridge QB so we can develop a QB of the future without forcing him on the field. Those guys ran the offense with Tebow. I think they could run an effective enough offense with Kaep or RGIII for a year or so.

 

[Memphis Ram]

My problem with your assertion is not that there won't be the threat of a pass, but that there won't be much threat of a pass. There are very few guys out there with both the ability to run like a RB and the ability to read defenses, make decisions and hit on complex passing attacks. Kaepernick, to me, is the perfect example - he's good when his choices are primary read or run, but defenses can scheme to clamp down on a primary passer, and teams like the Rams have shown that you can put a Barron/McDonald/Ogletree type to "spy" the QB and whomp the crap out of him if he pulls it down.

OK. But, my problem is your assertion is that there needs to be a complex passing attack to have much of a threat of a pass. I couldn't disagree more. In fact, it's my opinion that's the problem with a lot of NFL Offenses. A couple of OC even got fired in season because of it. They are too darn complexed which hinders player execution.

As stated earlier, IMO, Kaepernick is a perfect example of what happens when you try to force someone into fitting that type of offense. Square peg meet round hole. The 49ers were winning with him before they tried. And IMO, all the Rams have shown is that some teams match up well with others, just like the Bucs, Giants, and Saints showed vs. the GSOT. And especially if the opposing teams QB isn't being used properly.

I think this is the major difference between your POV and mine - I think there are way, way more QBs available who can make reads and throws in a moderately complex passing attack than there are who can reliably complete, as they say, "all the throws" and also run like a deer.

Actually, we have no difference of POV at all here. I agree. But, my point was that there are not and have not been that many quality pocket passers in the league able to do what you suggest at one time for years. And NFL teams have been chasing ghosts for decades looking for them. The 7-10 or so that have one are fine. But, the rest of the league struggles on waiting sometimes decades to land that guy. Again, the Rams haven't had one since Bulger in 2006 prior to him getting shellshocked. That's almost 10 freaking years.

If a team takes away a guy like Kaepernick's ability to run - and they will - he needs to be able to operate a reasonably efficient and effective passing attack. Those guys are rarer - yet, admittedly, more effective - than guys who can stand in the pocket, survey the field, and put the ball where it needs to be.

In the offense I envision, if a team takes away Kaepernick's ability to run, then they've also got to stop Gurley and Austin. And that's not going to be a small feat when they've still got to keep an eye on him AND play the passing game, which doesn't have to be all that complex.

 

[tahoe]

Well its looking like we will be in position to draft one of the top two qbs, i sure hope they are good!

 

[Memento]

Well its looking like we will be in position to draft one of the top two qbs, i sure hope they are good!

We need to lose out and other teams ahead of us need to start winning before that happens.

 

[tahoe]

We need to lose out and other teams ahead of us need to start winning before that happens.

Im not seeing a lot to stop that from happening....

 

[DCH]

We need to lose out and other teams ahead of us need to start winning before that happens.

Well, right now we're tied for the 5th overall spot. Cleveland is probably taking a QB. Tennessee isn't. Neither is San Diego or Dallas, unless one of them decides replacing Romo or Rivers is the best move for their future (I don't see it). San Fran and New Orleans are the only 2 teams with the same record as us I could see taking a QB next year.

So... we're in the hunt. I don't expect us to win another game this year, given how pathetic we've looked in our losing streak, and given the fact that San Fran (our only winnable game, IMO) has looked much improved with Gabbert under center.

 

[neil alkobri]

I think Mike Glennon would be a good fit behind center. He doesn't turn the ball over alot, can make plays with his feet to avoid the rush. Then draft Carson Wentz.

 

[Alan]

I'd just like to point out that the body is not even cold yet. :seizure: