Once-in-a-lifetime prospect? Scouts break down Clowney

[jrry32]

Because it's extremely doubtful he'll be on the field with them. Chris is not going to move to the interior. It's just won't happen, IMO.
Chris may have played in a 3-4 in college but it was still on the outside.

Clowney can play on the interior on passing downs.

 

[LesBaker]

Clowney can play on the interior on passing downs.

What does he weigh?

 

[Ramifications]

Because it's extremely doubtful he'll be on the field with them. Chris is not going to move to the interior. It's just won't happen, IMO.
Chris may have played in a 3-4 in college but it was still on the outside.

Was it extremely doubtful the Giants would line up four DEs on the DL when they won the Super Bowl twice? Probably people also thought at that time it just won't happen, IMO.

Clowney has played DT in college, he is a very strong 275 lbs.

Yes, a 3-4 DE is on the outside, just like a 4-3 DE is, but it has some things in common with a 4-3 DT. Darnell Dockett is bigger than Long, but an example of a player that could play 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT.

Is there an identifiable reason why you think the Giants employed it so successfully, yet it is extremely doubtful the Rams could?

 

[bwdenverram]

I expect Finnegan to be at the top of the list to be cut or restructured. Again, I haven't heard the cap situation is so dire we definitely have to let Saffold go and also cut Wells AND Dahl. The fact that we could extend Saffolds suggest that if we CAN'T, the money we DON'T spend on him, could enable us to not have to cut Wells and Dahl if they don't want to.

The coaching staff seems to like vets, not sure they want to roll without all three of them in 2014 (maybe one or tow, I agree)?

I'll say I'm not a CAP expert so I don't know the exact numbers. But I do think Finnegan is cut and re-signed to a better team friendly deal. I would say Wells is probably gone if nothing more than his # and he's been hurt a lot since being here. Dahl is still a good player but may need to cut or re-sign also.
It will be very interesting to see how this all shakes out. But exciting, I think.

 

[bwdenverram]

Was it extremely doubtful the Giants would line up four DEs on the DL when they won the Super Bowl twice? Probably people also thought at that time it just won't happen, IMO.

Clowney has played DT in college, he is a very strong 275 lbs.

Yes, a 3-4 DE is on the outside, just like a 4-3 DE is, but it has some things in common with a 4-3 DT. Darnell Dockett is bigger than Long, but an example of a player that could play 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT.

Is there an identifiable reason why you think the Giants employed it so successfully, yet it is extremely doubtful the Rams could?

I wouldn't play either inside but if I was going to I would play Long inside first because I think he has better push. At the end of the day Fish and Les will do what they feel is best.
I think Clowney (for us) is a mistake given other needs. But my opinion is worth as much as a rock.

 

[bwdenverram]

Clowney can play on the interior on passing downs.

I think you guys are extremely hopeful on all this. We'll see. Anything is possible but asking for these guys to do in the NFL what they did in college isn't realistic. JMO.

 

[Ramifications]

I'll say I'm not a CAP expert so I don't know the exact numbers. But I do think Finnegan is cut and re-signed to a better team friendly deal. I would say Wells is probably gone if nothing more than his # and he's been hurt a lot since being here. Dahl is still a good player but may need to cut or re-sign also.
It will be very interesting to see how this all shakes out. But exciting, I think.

Agreed.

BTW, ostensible DE William Hayes is deployed on the inside at times I think (and also was in TEN?), and he is a listed 6'3" 278. Clowney a listed 6'6" 274 lbs., so longer and leaner, but the same weight, and may be stronger.

 

[bwdenverram]

Just watching Hayes vs. Clowney they are just two different body types. Hayes looks bigger to me.
Anyway, I don't want to say Clowney can't do it, but I think it's not the best idea.

Not a buzz kill, if Clowney is our pick I hope he lights it up. I'll eat all the crow in the world happily

 

[Ramifications]

A Seahawks article about how they tried to employ some of the Giants NASCAR concepts (if you can't beat em, join em! :^) )...

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/10/24/4987528/seahawks-nascar-defense-nfl-pete-carroll-dan-quinn

Justin Tuck (6'5" 268 lbs.)
Osi Umeniyora (6'3" 255 lbs.)
Jason Pierre-Paul (6'5" 278)*
Matthias Kiwanuka (6'5" 267 lbs.)

* JPP looked like the best young pass rusher in the game in 2011, but has had back injury issues the past year and a half or two. Like Clowney, he is also a gifted, phenomenal athlete, and has similar size.

 

[Thordaddy]

What does he weigh?

What does it matter? he's Superman

 

[jrry32]

I think you guys are extremely hopeful on all this. We'll see. Anything is possible but asking for these guys to do in the NFL what they did in college isn't realistic. JMO.

Clowney did do it at times in college.

What does he weigh?

270-280

 

[Ramifications]

Just watching Hayes vs. Clowney they are just two different body types. Hayes looks bigger to me.
Anyway, I don't want to say Clowney can't do it, but I think it's not the best idea.

Not a buzz kill, if Clowney is our pick I hope he lights it up. I'll eat all the crow in the world happily

Yeah, I'm not really wedded or chained to any particular pick, if it is Robinson, Matthews, Watkins or Clowney, I hope they kick some serious NFC West ass.

Unfortunately, our team has enough holes and needs that we could make (and probably have) compelling cases for any of them.

BTW, Julius Peppers is listed at 6'7" 287 lbs. (4.68 40!), but my recollection is that he gained about 10 lbs or more within 1-2 years of entering the league (can't verify this from his wiki page, but that is pretty long, so basically a few big meals for someone like that :^) ). He was a good enough athlete to walk on and be a key reserve on the North Carolina basketball team (scored 18 points and had 10 rebounds in a second round loss after advancing to the NCAA tournament).

Mario Williams is listed at 6'6" 292 lbs. (ran a 4.7 40 with a 40.5" VJ - YIKES!), but his wiki page says that is about what he was at the Combine.

With a 6'6" frame, I think it is possible he adds 5-10 lbs. in the NFL (doesn't appear to be a lot of flab now, but he does seem to get winded, and needs to be better conditioned to maximize his potential).

 

[RamFan503]

The one problem I have with him is in the limited action I've seen, he seems to run past a lot of plays. He is an animal though. As much as I want other positions in the draft, the idea of having two virtually unstoppable DEs gives me a major boner. Who the hell do you double? Does that free the man child to blast the middle?

Unfortunately for us, that still leaves us very susceptible to draw plays and screens. Maybe Greg will change that.

I will just say that I will be extremely excited if we pick him but I will also dig it if we use our picks in our areas of need.

 

[ChrisW]

Washington has put us in a good position to be having this conversation.

Clowney is most definitely BPA if he's there at 2. Do we draft BPA? Or BPA for need?

 

[Ramifications]

When you check out the highlights (repasted below), as far as his physique, check out the dude's haunches. To use an analogy, if the average NFL DE compared to mere mortals has a Dodge Charger 426 hemi power plant there, Clowney has a nuclear reactor!

After looking again, in his junior year, his get off was insane. In some cases he was already by the OT before they had even gotten into a stance. He has the suddenness, burst and short area acceleration of a player 100 lbs. lighter, you don't see that every day. Adalius Thomas was one of the better athletes I've seen at the LB position (NE rookie second rounder Jamie Collins is one of the best in the league currently, he played safety (?), OLB, ILB and DE in college, broke the Combine broad jump record set by Calvin Johnson, Brian Urlacher was a college safety at New Mexico and Ahmad Brooks a Virginia LB - they are the only NFL LBs I know if that were good enough athletes to be collegiate kick returners - Brooks and D.J. Williams were among the higest recruited dual threat RB/LBs in the nation... fellow alum John Madden said Williams was the only prep player he ever saw that he thought could have gone directly to the NFL if rules permitted it, I thought Adrian Peterson may also have been able to)... he could play DE, and even do a good job in coverage, I think he lined up at DB at times in exotic formations.

Anyways, Clowney, at his best, reminds me of some of these kind of freakish athletes in his elite movement skills and COD (change of direction) ability for a big man... it isn't an accident that I almost need to invoke LBs to reference and cite athletic comps (though Peppers had cartoonish athleticism, another Panther said they once saw him in practice leap in the air to block a pass, get lowbridged or undercut and flipped in the air, landed on his feet like a cat and still chased down the ball carrier and made the play downfield!). To defeat your offensive counterpart, it helps to have superior talent and athleticism (technique comes into play, as well as things like toughness, physicality, effort, intensity, etc.). In the below Patrick Willis highlight**, Josh Sitton at the 2:30 mark talks about how Willis reminds him of a RB in the way he presses the hole and cuts inside the hole to make a play (never heard it put like this before, but it makes sense if you watch the clip), how he sets up blockers, and you can see an example at the 3:00 mark how he beautifully undercuts the block attempt of the opponent who doesn't even get a hand on him. Not just compared to the OL position opposite him, but if Clowney is a better athlete than some RBs (and even some WR/TEs) he is trying to tackle and bring down, that is a handy attribute to bring to the table.

* 2012



** Patrick Willis NFLs Top 100 Players file...

 

[A55VA6]

Washington has put us in a good position to be having this conversation.

Clowney is most definitely BPA if he's there at 2. Do we draft BPA? Or BPA for need?

If we're stuck at 2 and there's Clowney, I just don't see how you can pass on him.. I don't think Fisher would pass on him either lol

 

[Ramifications]

Coincidentally, at the end of the 2012 Clowney highlights, actually they very last part, Herbstreit does use the same trans-positional comp I invoked to capture the rare pure athleticism and natural talent - a Calvin Johnson of DEs.

Addendum to my post immediately above about athletes, and the RB-like skill set of Willis. The best skill position players have great open field running instincts. Some athletes (offense or defense) don't have good instincts (you sort of have them or you don't, not sure how much you can coach that up?), which renders the athleticism not as dangerous. Clowney flashed outstanding instincts to find the ball carrier or QB. He isn't just rare as a physical specimen or athlete, he plays very aware of his surroundings and will therefore be in a position to FUNCTIONALLY harness and leverage those off-the-charts underwear Olympics measurables and translate them to the field.

 

[jrry32]

Washington has put us in a good position to be having this conversation.

Clowney is most definitely BPA if he's there at 2. Do we draft BPA? Or BPA for need?

If we're stuck at #2, I'm taking Bridgewater or Clowney because imo, we better get a top 2 talent in this draft.

 

[The Rammer]

Again, he looked a lot better in 2012, when he presumably wasn't as much of a marked man.

If he is drafted by STL, we do have a pretty good DE in Quinn. Is there an assumption that opposing offenses will elect to double team Clowney and not Quinn? They can't double team both of them.

Which is exactly my point. Why draft him when he completely disappears at all? I mean go watch the tapes, his comparison to DE's everybody says he's like (White or Peppers) is not even close. He's disappearing against double teams in college for Christ sake! What do you think is going to happen when he gets the NFL? If we draft Clowney we might as well trade for Suh if all we are is going to upgrade the D-Line which if it did need upgrading it's NOT the at the DE position.

 

[Ramifications]

Which is exactly my point. Why draft him when he completely disappears at all? I mean go watch the tapes, his comparison to DE's everybody says he's like (White or Peppers) is not even close. He's disappearing against double teams in college for Christ sake! What do you think is going to happen when he gets the NFL? If we draft Clowney we might as well trade for Suh if all we are is going to upgrade the D-Line which if it did need upgrading it's NOT the at the DE position.

He looked dominant in 2012. Are you not accounting for the fact that he may have been injured in 2013? I've seen Peppers play since he entered the league, same with Mario Williams. They both had bouts where they disappear at times, but they can also amost singlehandedly win games at times. If you have enough surrounding talent, that can be an acceptable tradeoff. Would you not draft Peppers because he disappears at times? I have seen plays where Clowney looks better than Peppers and Williams. I can tell you are worried about double teams. Do you think they will single block Quinn and double team Clowney. Really? I get that DE is their best position, but if he is an upgrade over Long (had a disappointing season statistically, and IMO he has never been a complete DE in the sense of being a good run defender), upgrading at DE isn't like upgrading at FB. It is one of the most impactful positions (along with QB and LT). If Quinn and Clowney were to become one of the best DE tandems ever (has anybody ever said that about Quinn and Long?), there isn't a lot of downside to that.

Obviously if Fisher and Snead think 2013 is more representative than 2012 of what to expect in the NFL, I would hope they would take Robinson or Watkins. If they do take him, that would tell me they are more optimistic about his NFL projection than you. Doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong (see Quick and Pead, they aren't infallible), but given they probably have more information at their disposal, I would find that encouraging.