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Once-in-a-lifetime prospect? Scouts break down Clowney

Discussion in 'RAMS - NFL TALK' started by Ramifications, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Interesting article. It noted that the ability to draw extra attention and double teams is an advantage to defenses. No doubt. To me, the definition of a great player like Reggie White (if we are talking about generational, once in a lifetime talensts) is to beat double teams and still make plays. Are there any players in the Hall of Fame that made it on the basis of - drew a lot of double teams? But maybe he was playing hurt and that impacted his game more than some are accounting for.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20140205/jadeveon-clowney-nfl-draft-2014/

    I trust Fisher and Snead, so if he is the pick at 1.2 (or 1.4 after a trade down), than I am completely on board. The Giants rode the NASCAR four DE nickel scheme to two Super Bowls, so there are worse things than having three great DEs. Long may no longer be great, he had a drop off in 2013 (though he may have been hurt also and could rebound, he is only 28-29, he did get a lot of pressures). It would be expensive to keep all three, but Quinn techinically doesn't need to be extended until 2016, and by the time Clowney would need to be extended (2019?), Long would be like 33-34?

    Quinn and Clowney, IF he is cracked up to what he is supposed to be, would have a chance to be a historically good DE tandem, maybe the best ever. They could be duelling starting All Pros for half a decade or more. We almost beat SEA at home with a blue print of pressure/containment from the DEs, and this would be effective against Wilson and Kaep, the starting QBs for our main two divisional rivals. While we do need a starting caliber safety next to McDonald and an upgraded starter or nickel CB, the best DL in the league would make a lot of problems go away in the secondary.

    Like a lot of people, I questioned the logic of taking a DE when it is our strongest position, but maybe the sword that cuts through that tangled Gordian knot of a problem is taking the long perspective. Some arguing the merits for an OL or a WR (I can see the rationale for both) want one NOW NOW NOW!!! :^) But roster building and draft picks have repercussions beyond this year, so taking the long perspective seems best. If we take Clowney, Robinson/Matthews or Watkins, we will have them for more than a year. If we take Clowney, there may not be an OL as good as Robinson or WR as good as Watkins NEXT year, this is true. But there also won't be a DE like Clowney (prospects like Peppers and Mario Williams historically go very high). In 2013, we could have gotten a very good WR in Patterson at the end of the first, and Warford (guard, not a LT, but Robinson might play there a few years) in the second (or third with a trade up?). Calvin Johnson went 1.2, A.J Green 1.4 and Julio Jones 1.6, but Watkins probably isn't at their level as a prospect. Demaryius Thomas and Dez Bryant went in the twenties in their draft, and they are Pro Bowl caliber. Same with Percy Harvin, signed to a top 5 contract by SEA. Josh Gordon cost a second round pick (supplemental). Kennan Allen went in the third.

    It is true, that if Bradford has a torn ACL in game one, he may not get another chance. If the Rams go 1-16, Fisher and Snead may be done. But I don't think either is going to happen, and I don't think Fisher and Snead seem like the kind of personalities to mak conservative decisions made out of fear in the short term, they are gamblers (the good kind) that balance talent with calculated risk (Ogletree).

    Of course, if they trade down to 1.4-1.6-1.8, than it is probably a moot point, and that could mean an OL or WR?

    Some argue that we are a few players away on defense from being elite, which may be true, Clowney could be one of them (also safety, CB, OLB, DT - starters or depth). But the same could go for offense. We would like to think we have our franchise QB (made the RGIII trade possible), Stacy was a top 5 RB in the second half of the season, Cook could have upside at TE, Austin and Bailey have a ton of upside at WR, Quick and Givens could be effective as WR3/WR4 if the other pieces of the puzzle fall into place and they aren't the focal point. Yes, the OL has holes, but Long had a strong season before the late injury (if Clowney becomes a super star for a decade, we may regret getting an OL because Long needed to be covered for a few games - OOF!), Barksdale looks like a keeper, we have a few candidates for center and guard even if Saffold moves on like Jim Thomas expects, and the draft can plug in a few more OL.

    While there may happenstance elements to Fisher's history (did he control the draft or Reese? inheriting Matthews and Munchak, etc.), it has been his MO to not take OL in the first. And as pointed out earlier (here or another board?), Fisher has reportedly never taken a guard before the fifth round (unless you count fourth rounder Jones, who played center his last year and some think was drafted to play there?).
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  2. ChrisW Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be upset if they picked Clowney. Especially now that we have Williams on board who isn't afraid to sit a player for not giving his all. If there's any tandem in the league that can push him it's Williams and Fisher.

    Also, playing him at DT with long and quinn on the ends would be an absolute nightmare for any line to try and block. When you mix in Williams stunts and blitzes, we damn well might set the sack record.
     
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  3. BonifayRam Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what a DL'er like Jadeveon Clwoney would have on our Nickel & Dime defenses if he was part of those defense packages.
     
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  4. Barrison Well-Known Member

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    Quinn and Clowney at DE and Long and Hayes at DT un-freaking-stoppable! =D
     
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  5. Rams and Gators Well-Known Member Pit Boss

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    One thing is for sure, if we drafted Clowney at #2 we'd have one of the best D lines in the league (as we already do and Clowney would at least be an upgrade over Sims) and one of the worst O lines in the league. If that's the way that Snisher want to go awesome.
     
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  6. The Giants simply moved DEs into DT in obvious passing situations.

    The Rams could move either Clowney inside (he did some at South Carolina?) or Long, who would have a quickness advantage in the interior. Because we have been pushed around at times by the physical OLs of SEA and SF, at one time I thought getting smaller at the DL was going in the wrong direction... BUT, this might not be on run downs, so that concern shouldn't be a factor.

    Clowney might be used situationally like Aldon Smith his first year. But he could be deployed like a starter sooner than later, in which case I think I'd rather have Clowney's explosiveness on the edge and maybe shunt Long inside. Maybe have shifting looks and move them around to keep offenses off balance? Maybe even allow Clowney to rush standing up from LB occasionally?
     
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  7. Thordaddy Binding you with ancient logic

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    If he is too good to pass up on someone will offer as much for him as for a QB. These are not the days of un tradeable draft choices,if we get stuck at two and we agree with the hyped evaluations, but all those evaluations have done is feed off evaluations of his year before last and have not reflected that this year he was not as good.
    FWIW he wasn't that dominant this year. Sure a player like he is supposed to be is great ,but we have the chance to keep adding multiple first round talent by trading his rights and it's a team game,I say trade the pick,build a team, a team just beat the" best QB of all time" in the SB.
     
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  8. Barrison Well-Known Member

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    Well Long played in a 3-4 i believe at UVA, and played at a helluva level I'd have to think it would be easier for a 3-4 DE to move inside than a 4-3 DE also be more productive.
     
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  9. One reason I'm starting to warm up to Clowney (though I still think we trade down and get Robinson or Watkins, but just in case), is that if we take the long perspective, will it be easier to plug in a guard or two over the next few drafts, or get a DE like Clowney?

    Our OL was dominant in some of the games (CHI and SEA at home come to mind). We would still have the same bookend tackles. How hard can it be to get a LG like Williams? We may have a few good candidates at center and RG, even if Saffold does move on, and that doesn't account for the draft or free agency (must be guards that won't break the bank - RT Barksdale was a free agent). Obviously Fisher seems to prefer vets, so maybe we shouldn't assume Wells and Dahl are gone if Saffold move on, they could keep at least one. Maybe a player like Wells would agree to a restructure, since he has missed like 13 or 32 games since 2012? Now THAT OL, would start to look a lot like the 2013 iteration which was at times dominant, albeit minus Saffold (IF he moves on, not a given).
     
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  10. ChrisW Well-Known Member

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    I think Clowney would give OGs more fits than Long with that lightning fast first step.
     
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  11. I have been critical of Clowney, but he may have been hurt last year (I mean, he was hurt, but maybe more seriously than we relaized). A concern is, people say double teams, but if he couldn't beat them in college, will he in the NFL.

    But the flip side, and cause for optimism, is what if Fisher does light a fire under his ass, and he actually IMPROVES with pro weight training and conditioning, playing alongside the ultra-competitive Long and Quinn, an athletic big man and disruptive pocket collapser like Brockers, AND refines his technique and develops a repertoire of moves and learns to string them together. We could be looking at an all time great.

    FEARSOME FOURSOME 2.0!

    But, yeah, whatever happens, I hope he runs a 4.4 and has a 38"+ VJ at the combine, to whip up the demand for the 1.2 pick to a frenzy and fever pitch, so there is a bidding war for those that want him or the second best QB (hope HOU doesn't take CLowney if he destroys the Combine), and we can maximize value on a potential trade down.

    But I'm starting to see the light on Clowney. We are in a great position, we could also do the trade down and add Robinson or Watkins (I'm starting to wonder if the latter is less likely?).
     
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  12. Thordaddy Binding you with ancient logic

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    Fisher is in the third year of a five year contract,many are insisting he needs to win now,the BPA "long perspective" worked for Tom Landry who was given forever to win, but today's coaching jobs come with a shelf life.
     
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  13. Barrison Well-Known Member

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    I see him being more productive on the outside than Long, where I think Long isn't a blow you away with speed kinda guy makes up for in brute strength, all those pressure's Long gets at DE might turn into sacks at the DT position, IMO
     
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  14. True but Clowney might give RTs more fits than Long. It would be fun seeing which kaleidoscopic permutations/deployments work best in the laboratory of the NFC West. :^) I could see them moving around.
     
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  15. bwdenverram Well-Known Member

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    I'm way in the minority. I watched about 13 minutes of video of him against Missouri. I just don't see it. When he gets to the next level I don't think he will be that spectacular. Yeah, I'm not an expert and I may be wrong in the end. But personally if we use our # 2 pick on him I would be disappointed. I see a guy that can be spectacular and then go missing. The #2 pick should be a guy that gives you effort every play. We have bigger needs. I know this video is just one game, but it's also against a good team. NFL is ALL good players. He will be playing against elite LT's. I just can't use the #2 pick on a guy that probably won't even start day 1. If we take him I hope I'm dead wrong. I just don't see it in the NFL.

     
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  16. I posted something but the site ate it.

    First of all, we don't know Kroenke is saying this, I've heard it more from message boarders and Bernie-types.

    Also, for all we know, Clowney's addition could offset any putative loss at OL and WR, it doesn't make the difference between winning the NFC West and doing so bad he gets fired, and we could finish with the same record, or even better. By saying long view, I didn't mean to imply it will definitely make us worse in the short term, just that it could make us better in the long term.
     
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  17. ChrisW Well-Known Member

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    You don't see them constantly running away from him or the constant help from RBs and TEs? Who do you double on our line with Clowney, Quinn, and Brockers? Pockets be collapsin', yo!
     
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  18. Barrison Well-Known Member

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    I have always thought Long would be a beast moved inside as the prototypical DE/DT and Clowney skill set opposite Quinn...OMG! :sneaky:
     
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  19. bwdenverram Well-Known Member

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    I see him also give up on plays if it's not at him. I'm not saying I'm right. But you can't start all three. You want a #2 pick coming off the bench? You're not sitting Long, he just got a nice contract. So when you have potential needs all over the OL and defensive backfield, you want to take a player #2 that isn't starting day 1?
     
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  20. bwdenverram Well-Known Member

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    I personally think Long would do worse inside. But I suppose they could try it and see. He's more a speed guy IMO.
    I think they need another "Suh" type player that can help Brockers dominate the middle. Then who do you double?
     
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