Losing out

[Memphis Ram]

@jrry32

The spread offense critique was never put to rest. It's still difficult to evaluate these guys on how they would conform / play in a traditional NFL offense. That said, what has happened to ease the burden lately is that NFL teams are now smartly allowing these kids to do some of what they were doing in college (and perhaps high school). Which is what I stated earlier when I said whomever gets these guys needs to let them continue to do what they have done in college. It's the same thing I've said with the running QBs.

In this thread, we've gone from #1 overall to now top ten. Winston's issue was mainly off the field. A lot of what plagued Newton were also character concerns (and I'll add a dab of racism, IMO) and his fit in an NFL offense. And if he went to a team who didn't play him to his strengths, chances are pretty good that they would be correct. I don't recall seeing anyone claiming Bortles would be a bust, but I'll take your word for it.

My point was that actual NFL teams, with more information than any of us, deemed the players I listed as worthy of top ten selections. And that the importance of the position elevates these kids in comparison to the other players.

 

[dieterbrock]

The spread offense critique was never put to rest. It's still difficult to evaluate these guys on how they would conform / play in a traditional NFL offense. That said, what has happened to ease the burden lately is that NFL teams are now smartly allowing these kids to do some of what they were doing in college (and perhaps high school).

Love your post and totally agree. Only thing I may differ slightly on is that the "traditional NFL offense" doesnt exist the way spread detractors posture it.
IMO, the "new" traditional NFL offense incorporates a lot of spread/pistol formations.
More HS kids are playing as freshman, more rookies are playing in the NFL right away. Why? Like you said, there's more similarity in the offense than there is difference

 

[DaveFan'51]

JJ Watt? Lost me there. But, using his draft class, I would hope that this team doesn't pass on a player like him, Robert Quinn, or Tyron Smith for someone like Jake Locker or Blaine Gabbert just because they need a QB.

Again, history has shown that just because you need a position player doesn't mean that a quality player at that position will be available at a team's selection or even in an entire draft class.

Well said!! Completely agree with everything you've said here!!

Can anyone refresh an Old Man's Brain, What Picks are we getting because of the Bradford Trade!?

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32

The spread offense critique was never put to rest. It's still difficult to evaluate these guys on how they would conform / play in a traditional NFL offense. That said, what has happened to ease the burden lately is that NFL teams are now smartly allowing these kids to do some of what they were doing in college (and perhaps high school). Which is what I stated earlier when I said whomever gets these guys needs to let them continue to do what they have done in college. It's the same thing I've said with the running QBs.

Top 15 QBs in QB Rating:
1. Andy Dalton - Spread
2. Carson Palmer
3. Russell Wilson
4. Tyrod Taylor - Spread
5. Tom Brady
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Derek Carr - Spread
8. Aaron Rodgers
9. Philip Rivers
10. Drew Brees
11. Alex Smith - Spread
12. Marcus Mariota - Spread
13. Brian Hoyer
14. Josh McCown
15. Cam Newton - Spread

I think the whole spread offense critique has been put to rest. People need to dig deeper now than just saying, "he was in a spread offense so that's a major negative...."

As you said, the game is evolving. Teams are using concepts from spread offenses more and more. It's not about the label on the offense. It's about what the QB does in the offense.

In this thread, we've gone from #1 overall to now top ten. Winston's issue was mainly off the field. A lot of what plagued Newton were also character concerns (and I'll add a dab of racism, IMO) and his fit in an NFL offense. And if he went to a team who didn't play him to his strengths, chances are pretty good that they would be correct. I don't recall seeing anyone claiming Bortles would be a bust, but I'll take your word for it.

A lot of people didn't like Bortles. Not necessarily on this site but on others. Winston took a lot of heat during his final year on the field as well especially for interceptions.

Newton wasn't just plagued by character concerns. His lower body mechanics were very raw which led to some accuracy issues. And a lot of people questioned if he could make NFL reads and go through progressions coming from the offense he did. He was no sure thing. A lot of people felt like he wasn't a top 10 pick.

People tend to magnify the flaws of QB prospects because they see them for what they are...not what they can be.

My point was that actual NFL teams, with more information than any of us, deemed the players I listed as worthy of top ten selections. And that the importance of the position elevates these kids in comparison to the other players.

NFL teams get it wrong. They overthink things and they get desperate. We all get it wrong too. But I'm not sure how all of this relates to Goff. Like any other position, you're going to find plenty of successful QBs drafted in the first round and plenty of busts.

 

[Memphis Ram]

@jrry32

I still don't believe that the spread offense critique has been put to rest. Sure, some have made the transition. Very few immediately (mostly with offensive adjustments towards what they did in college). Some after several years already in the league. However, the failure rate has to show how difficult it is for NFL teams to gauge incoming talent coming from the offense. ie. a list of success stories is good. But, it also has to be taken into context along with the list of failures.

BTW, that list alone should tell most how hard it is to find a quality NFL QB. Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer??

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32

I still don't believe that the spread offense critique has been put to rest. Sure, some have made the transition. Very few immediately (mostly with offensive adjustments towards what they did in college). Some after several years already in the league. However, the failure rate has to show how difficult it is for NFL teams to gauge incoming talent coming from the offense.

I'd be curious to see the failure rate of pro style and spread QBs drafted in the first round over the past decade or so.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I'd be curious to see the failure rate of pro style and spread QBs drafted in the first round over the past decade or so.

It would be a nice project for someone to undertake.

 

[snackdaddy]

I can't get excited about the prospects of another high pick. They've had a bevy of high picks since 2012. Yet, here we are 4 years later with a team that has gotten progressively worse since the encouraging first year. Which was also the best year of this regime.

So now we sit here looking at a team that can rival the Linehan/Spags teams. All those draft picks have resulted in more losses. Yeah, you can say he drafted a couple of good players. But how good can they be if the team is this bad?

We won't likely end up with the top pick, but right now I don't think we can beat any of the other 31 teams in the league. We definitely can't score on any of them. I'd be shocked if we won another game this year.

So no, I won't hold my breath that they can get it right with the high picks they'll likely get. A high first, second and another in the upper half of the second round. Odds are at least one of those picks will be a bust. Am I sure? No. But I'm pretty sure they blew an opportunity to build a very good team with all the previous drafts.

 

[jrry32]

But how good can they be if the team is this bad?

This team can still be pretty darn good. When you have the worst QB play in the NFL combined with a young and injured OL that has neutered your run game (despite an incredibly talented HB), there's not much you can do. But that doesn't make the entirety of the team untalented. Look at the 2012 Chiefs. Went 2-14 despite having some talent due to incompetent coaching and truly god awful QB play (8 TDs to 20 Ints...wow). Brought in a new HC after the season (Andy Reid) and a new QB (Alex Smith) and they ended up going 11-5 in 2013 and are currently on pace for their 3rd straight winning season since then.

The Rams aren't unlike the Chiefs. Incredibly talented HB. Limited weapons. God awful QB play. Plenty of talent on defense.

I don't think it'll take a lot to turn it around. Just an intelligent off-season. Go get a quality HC. Find a QB. And make 3-4 moves to improve the weapons and OL while retaining the bulk of the defense. I don't think any of that is too difficult. I have quite a lot of ideas on directions we can go in each category. There are options.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

This team can still be pretty darn good. When you have the worst QB play in the NFL combined with a young and injured OL that has neutered your run game (despite an incredibly talented HB), there's not much you can do. But that doesn't make the entirety of the team untalented. Look at the 2012 Chiefs. Went 2-14 despite having some talent due to incompetent coaching and truly god awful QB play (8 TDs to 20 Ints...wow). Brought in a new HC after the season (Andy Reid) and a new QB (Alex Smith) and they ended up going 11-5 in 2013 and are currently on pace for their 3rd straight winning season since then.

The Rams aren't unlike the Chiefs. Incredibly talented HB. Limited weapons. God awful QB play. Plenty of talent on defense.

I don't think it'll take a lot to turn it around. Just an intelligent off-season. Go get a quality HC. Find a QB. And make 3-4 moves to improve the weapons and OL while retaining the bulk of the defense. I don't think any of that is too difficult. I have quite a lot of ideas on directions we can go in each category. There are options.

I like your Rams/Chiefs comparison. The only catch is the Chiefs had a veteran OLine. I think the Rams Oline can be good but it certainly isn't there yet.

 

[jrry32]

I like your Rams/Chiefs comparison. The only catch is the Chiefs had a veteran OLine. I think the Rams Oline can be good but it certainly isn't there yet.

Personally, I think that might be a positive for us. We've sucked less than KC despite having a young OL. But yes, if our OL doesn't improve next year...then it's an issue. I'd like to replace Saffold if possible with a quality vet and upgrade the Center position (again, if possible). Hopefully, the other 3 guys will improve.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Personally, I think that might be a positive for us. We've sucked less than KC despite having a young OL. But yes, if our OL doesn't improve next year...then it's an issue. I'd like to replace Saffold if possible with a quality vet and upgrade the Center position (again, if possible). Hopefully, the other 3 guys will improve.

That is the only way I can see get rid of Saffold. We would have to replace him with another experienced Guard. It is early but they raved about Brown. and Havenstein looked good for a rookie. They either need some luck, better coaching or for A light to come on for GRob. If he can reach his potential and they get a better Center, the line would look pretty good in the coming years.

Robinson is such a pivotal player for this team.

 

[12intheBox]

The Rams are going to win 3 out of their last 4. Heck, they may sweep the last 4 games.

It will save Fisher, we still won't make the playoffs, and we will all have that familiar hope going into next year.

It's just so Rams.

 

[DaveFan'51]

Draft talk for Christmas? Ah, the Rams way.

 

[Ramhusker]

View attachment 11377 View attachment 11378

Painful ain't it?

 

[FRO]

Painful ain't it?

It would be nice to be talking about playoff positioning wouldn't it? One day...

 

[Ramhusker]

It would be nice to be talking about playoff positioning wouldn't it? One day...

Next year right?

 

[LesBaker]

This is the one thing i'm sure of.
I'm still rooting for wins, but i'm emotionally detached until the offseason now...so if the losses keep piling up i'm good.

If the Rams were a booty........

 

[DaveFan'51]

If the Rams were a booty........

 

[RamsSince1969]

Draft talk for Christmas? Ah, the Rams way.

The more things change, the more they stay the same! Groundhog day!